Never clean a .22 rifle

John,

I have a friend in metallurgy. He has told me that you could take a bronze or brass brush and have several to do this test by the way. Mark and measure the piece of steel with a set of calipers on the mark before doing this. Now start scrubbing the marked area with brush after brush for 3 straight days if you like, and when you are done wearing out all those brushes, measure the same spot where the mark is, and you will get the same exact mesurement that you had before. He has told me that all a brush does to steel is polishes it. Now some will say you or scuffing the steel, but in reality all you are doing is polishing it. He ought to know. He's a very smart fella. He said no brass or bronze brush can in a metallurgical test remove steel from a rifle barrel. That's part of why I said a brush won't harm a rimfire barrel. This guy knows the facts about metals.

Brad
 
I don't know exactly what to say to that. Some searching on the web reveals that "bronze" (I know that's a very general term) can be as hard as steel (another very general term). Clearly if you have a typical bronze alloy and a typical steel alloy both hardened to their typical values the steel is harder, but I don't know how someone could say that's always the situation.

Aluminum Bronze alloy, for example, has hardness numbers that run well above the figures for the softer steel alloys.

If he's saying he knows the properties of the specific bronzes used in brushes and the specific steels used in firearm barrels, that seems like a pretty bold statement given that there are no standards for either, as nearly as I can tell.

Or is there some other mechanism at work other than the relative hardnesses?
 
Some people still don't get it. It's not the bronze vs steel. It's the carbon and other grit, some of it hard as carborundum, dragged by brushes, patches, bore snakes, rods...whatever against the sharp edges of crowns and rifling that does the damage to a rimfire barrel.

Even if particle sizes are relatively small, the glass in some priming mix can eventually wear a barrel. If you don't shoot benchrest, you probably won't wear out a barrel by cleaning it for a very long time; longer than you'll probably own the rifle.

If you do shoot benchrest, you'll probably think your barrel is worn out before it really is and may replace several good barrels before you're done competitive shooting.

Picher
 
While I agree to a point, doesn't the next bullet down the dirty barrel push and drag all that crud through the bore anyway?

Next week's topic: JB Bore Paste :) Just kidding.

John
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around one aspect...

That a rimfire barrel will lead up at the sedate velocities available to a .22 Long Rifle. I've got many rimfires, from my vintage Remington 521T, to my FrankenRuger Shilen-barreled 10-22, to my Winchester 94-22, and have NEVER had rimfire ammo lead up the bore. I don't even run jacketed or plated rimfire ammo, just lead w/wax lube or whatever else the manufacturer uses. To date, I've experienced no leading, and I know leading all too well from my cast boolit practices with centerfire handguns and rifles.

I'm sure there are some god-awful rimfire bores out there that may indeed promote leading, but are they really that common? Hence my practice of not cleaning my target rimfires, save for the muzzle crown and also the chambers for my auto-shuckers. :confused:
 
My '63 Mountie leaded up pretty good a few years ago. I think it took about 20 years to get that bad. Seriously. Once it got started the lead built up in a hurry. I just wrote it off to shooting a bunch of cheap soft lead on a blistering hot day.

John
 
Well

one day I shot a box of cci blazer and a brick of thunderbolts...My bore leaded up so bad i couldnt get the rod in an inch without it stopping...i should have stopped there but i didnt and ruined the barrel : (
 
I have been a shooter for 60 years, a tool and die maker for 45 years, and a mechanic forever, and I have never seen or heard of any machine that works better dirty.(leave aside grease.) If you are too lazy to clean your rifle, thats your prerogative. But to say that one shouldn't clean a rifle is like saying that taking a bath is harmful to you.:barf:

I have never seen a rifle that has been harmed by cleaning, unless some ham handed boob stuck a steel rod in the muzzle. There is a reason that cleaning rods are made of aluminum and brass. Those metals are softer than steel and won't wear the barrel out. Yes, some care should be taken to protect the crown, and some target rifles may shoot better after a fouling shot. But to say one should never clean any machine is foolish.:(

IMHO the internet is responsible for the wide dissemination of urban legends and B---S---. Use your brain for more than an ear separator and ignore stupidity wherever you find it.:)
 
MACGILLE

Thank you... a bit crude & harsh for my tastes, but its about time someone discredited the stupid title of this thread... I agree 100%... total bunk, & for the exact reasons you state...

yes if you are bumble handed you could screw up the crown etc... but for nearly anyone coordenated enough to shoot, clean your gun... appearently the pic of my Ruger & my comments went unnoticed...
 
You guys crack me up.

Go read some Precision Shooter articles written by probably the best 22 rimfire benchrest gunsmith in the U.S from Bill Calfee. Bill has forgotten more about how to make a rimfire shoot its best than what some of you even know. A ton of the guns he has built went on and broke world records. Bill has wrote some articles about the do's and don'ts of cleaning a rimfire barrel the right way. If you guys read some of them, you may just learn some things.

I presented some evidence to what a gun can still shoot like after having several brushes ran through the barrel. I showed you just a couple of groups at 25yds to illustrate my example that a brush won't harm the bore from a barrel that is 34yrs old. I got a ton more of one holers to go with those pictures. I probably could post them all, and you guys would still be hardheaded to the facts. Maybe you can show me some of your one holers from your guns that never get a brush or rod through them, and I may get your point.

Brad
 
Here's a 5 shot group from my new Benchmark barrel that I ruined by sticking a good hard quality rod with a good brush through a good bore guide. I should of known better for the gun more than likely would have shot better than this leaving it just plain dirty. I now plan on throwing this barrel away soon. For those that can't read the writing, that is 5 shots at 50yds.

502090.JPG
 
"If you guys read some of them, you may just learn some things."

Some of them? I've read all of them at least twice and sleep with them under my pillow. :) I'm not any smarter, but I am trying to understand the questions he's asking.

John
 
You guys crack me up.

Go read some Precision Shooter articles written by probably the best 22 rimfire benchrest gunsmith in the U.S from Bill Calfee.
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Come on Brad, don't pretend that this is cut and dried.

There are certainly experts who believe what you do, but there are also experts who come down on the other side of this debate.

Earlier on the thread a link to some information on a barrel maker's website was provided. Here's a bit of information from it:

"Even the brass/bronze brushes, which have bristles which are as hard as mild steel, or the lead removers, which use a hard brass mesh to scape the lead from the bore, may well be able to scatch the bore surface of a stainless steel barrel."

I'd have to say that this guys knows a bit about barrels and metallurgy and he's indicating that using a brass/bronze brush on CENTERFIRE stainless steel barrels may cause damage. I've no proof that rimfire barrels are softer than centerfires, but there's certainly no one even claiming that rimfires are HARDER than centerfire barrels.

You keep presenting your results as proof that brushes/agressive cleaning does no damage. It's proof that it's done no damage to YOUR barrels. YOUR barrels are not representative of the entire range of rimfire barrels in use today. I'm not saying your results are incorrect, just that your conclusions are not as general or as universally accepted as you are implying.
I have never seen or heard of any machine that works better dirty.(leave aside grease.)
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Brad Clodfelter said:
Yes and some barrels may shoot better dirty vs being cleaned.
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Now you have. ;)
If you are too lazy to clean your rifle, thats your prerogative.
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So anyone who disagrees with your point of view has character flaws?

The fact is that even Mr. Clodfelter acknowledges that some bores may be more accurate when fouled. Other evidence has been presented indicating that cleaning can adversely affect a bore in at least some circumstances.

IMO, when a person feels the need to insult those who disagree it implies that they're running low on hard evidence to support their point of view. At any rate, It's certainly not adding any useful information to the discussion.
 
John,

First off I'm not here to argue.

Second off I'm not here to put anyone down, and I'm not saying you are saying I am doing that. I just want to make that clear. I respect each and everyone of you here.

Now back to what I meant by a barrel being fouled that may shoot better. All barrels and that's including most bench guns will shoot more than likely their best after they become lubed(or to a point fouled a little) after being cleaned with a brush. On a precision custom barrel regardless if it is on a 10/22 or a custom built bench rifle, more times than not it will take approx 5-10 shots to do this. Not many of a barrel that has just been cleaned out with a brush will shoot its very first shot exactly on with the rest. Now the 1st shot may be just a tadbit off, but it should be close. I did have a centerfire that would do this though. It was the exception to the rule from what I have seen. Now some barrels may shoot better more dirtier because they are pitted are starting to wear and the fouling helps to fill these worn areas. But a barrel made to precision and not worn, will more than likely shoot its best being clean.

I personally don't know the standard hardness for a rifle barrel. I would guess it to be around 28-30 Rockwell. The Denny Phillips cleaning rod I have is 35 Rockwell from what Denny has told me personally on the phone. I believe his rod is supposedly harder than the barrel steel. I thought that my buddy told me once that most barrel steel has a Rockwell hardness of around 30. But I may be wrong.

What Picher said earlier, is probably very much true about the contaminents and carbon in the barrel that ends up doing damage over time in a rifle barrel. I can't prove that. But I agree with him.

I'm not here to prove really anything for I don't have all the answers. But what I do believe is this. More cheap rods that bend easily that are made out of a cheap soft steel or aluminum regardless of what others might tell you, will be death to your bore. The last thing you want is rod slapping in your barrel. That is why you want a rod harder than the barrel steel. Having a bore guide that doesn't, I repeat doesn't line up perfectly with your bore will only add to this problem. A softer rod will bend easily and slap a barrel to death when cleaning it. I encourage all of you to check your rods ocassioanally by rolling just the rod itself on a pre-determined clean level area. If it's bent, you will see it. I have seen several brand new rods that were in a gun store for sell that were bent as hell. I checked them for straightness and was amazed at how many were bent. Like I said, if I didn't have the right stuff to clean my barrels with, I too would just leave them alone.

Bill Calfee has designed a test about a cleaning rod being the proper hardness. In his test,(and he has done this with the Phillips cleaning rod and it passed the test) he clamps the handle in a vise, and bends it 10" to the right or 10" to the left which by the way has already been measured out beforehand. Then he checks the rod for straightness. If the rod is hard enough it will pass this test and not bend and be as straight as it was. Cheap rods, or aluminum rods won't. Now, no, your not going to present this much torture to most rods when cleaning your barrels, but eventually a rod that won't pass this test when new and if you keep using it in your barrel, it will more than likley bend eventually. That's why it's important to have a hard rod to clean your barrels. It will stay straight for years upon years.

I will ask my friend what the hardness of most barrel steel is.

I will try and get back with you when I have an answer.

Brad
 
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But what I do believe is this. More cheap rods that bend easily that are made out of a cheap soft steel or aluminum regardless of what others might tell you, will be death to your bore. That is why you want a rod harder than the barrel steel. Having bore guide that doesn't, I repeat doesn't line up perfectly with your bore will only add to the problem.
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Agree 100%
I will ask my friend what the hardness of most barrel steel is.
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Thanks! I'm very interested to see the numbers.
 
No problem John, and thanks for your contributions here.

Also to clear up what I said earlier about leading or lead build up in a barrel is this. The ammunition you shoot through your barrel really in all practicallity is what will or won't cause your rifle barrel to lead. Now I'm saying this to those guys who don't believe in using a brush in their barrels. The leading that will occur if it is going too, will be just in front the of the chamber and referred to by benchrest shooters as "lead ring". This lead build up caused by certain ammos that aren't lubed accordingly or from what I believe may be determined by the hardness level of the lead used. Whether this lead ring is caused by the lube used or not used on certain ammos, or possibly by softer or harder lead bullets than others, I can't say. But it can happen. Bill Calfee has said the only way to get rid of this lead ring once it happens or to prevent this lead ring from happening again, is to use a brush in the barrel.

Brad
 
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...thanks for your contributions here.
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Thanks and ditto! :D
Bill Calfee has said the only way to get rid of this lead ring once it happens or to prevent this lead ring from happening again, is to use a brush in the barrel.
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Agree. If you are having any significant amount of barrel leading it's going to have to be removed to maintain accuracy. I also agree with the idea that it's probably going to have to be removed mechanically. I say "probably" because I think it's probably also possible to remove it with a "Foul Out" type system. Certainly a brush is a much more common and inexpensive approach.
 
John,

I did some looking and I found the answer to how hard most barrel steel is from the man who would know, Bill Calfee himself.

Read Kathy's who is Bill Calfee by the way, post #6 here. On post #18 he goes into detail about the test I mentioned earlier above. Read post #10 about what Bill says about why you want a hard rod. Maybe this will get some people to understand why soft rods aren't the way to go. Feel free to read the whole thing if you like. Denny Phillips even has his email address posted there if you want one of his rods. I would guess he is still making them. You won't be disappointed I promise you that. I paid $45 shipped for mine. I haven't seen or used a better rod than his. It is the ultimate cleaning rod.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41257
 
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