Never clean a .22 rifle
- Thread starter Lavid2002
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saltydog452
New member
Chamber, recessed bolt face, and extractor need occasional cleaning. Magizines also for competitive semi autos.
salty.
salty.
oldbillthundercheif
Moderator
Nah, do what The Clodfelter says. He's better than a manual.
jhgreasemonkey
New member
My marlin 80 was so dirty that it wouldnt eject a round from the chamber after each shot. Ran a bore brush through it and cleaned the chamber, it was pretty gunked up. Works fine when clean. That was probably years of build up since I got the rifle used and it needed to be cleaned.
Brad Clodfelter
New member
oldbillthundercheif,
Not sure I take that as a compliment or not, but hey you got your way of thinking. I can tell you this much that most people who shoot sanctioned rimfire matches and win, are cleaning their rifles after every target from what I seen. Some will use patches only for so many shots, and others will brush and patch after so many shots. But most I know are running a brush through the barrel after so many shots if they want their barrel to shoot its best.
I don't think any manual is a cleaning bible to how to correctly clean a rimfire barrel. A lot of thoughts on cleaning of the do's and dont's to what works for some and what works for others. Your an adult, you decide what is right for you.
Brad
Not sure I take that as a compliment or not, but hey you got your way of thinking. I can tell you this much that most people who shoot sanctioned rimfire matches and win, are cleaning their rifles after every target from what I seen. Some will use patches only for so many shots, and others will brush and patch after so many shots. But most I know are running a brush through the barrel after so many shots if they want their barrel to shoot its best.
I don't think any manual is a cleaning bible to how to correctly clean a rimfire barrel. A lot of thoughts on cleaning of the do's and dont's to what works for some and what works for others. Your an adult, you decide what is right for you.
Brad
oldbillthundercheif
Moderator
Yes, it was a compliment.
Damn... times have changed. The last big smallbore match I shot was in '96 and the "wait until the round won't chamber before you clean" crowd was still fairly dominant back then. In this case, change is good.
And as far as fouling shots go, I bet you are right that 10 is plenty. I always ran a box through my rifle just to be on the safe side. There is nothing worse than shooting a sub-standard card and not being sure if it was you or the rifle...
Damn... times have changed. The last big smallbore match I shot was in '96 and the "wait until the round won't chamber before you clean" crowd was still fairly dominant back then. In this case, change is good.
And as far as fouling shots go, I bet you are right that 10 is plenty. I always ran a box through my rifle just to be on the safe side. There is nothing worse than shooting a sub-standard card and not being sure if it was you or the rifle...
Brad Clodfelter
New member
Ok then thanks. Sorry for not knowing which way to read ya.
The rimfire benchrest guns that are being produced this day and age will amaze you just how damn accurate they are. My Suhl seems to shoot better groups than score, but I'm still learning. It will shoot 50yd 5 shot groups in the low .1's a lot of times. My best group to date was .076ctc. Just a hair bigger than this smiley I brush my barrel every 4-6 boxes.
Brad
The rimfire benchrest guns that are being produced this day and age will amaze you just how damn accurate they are. My Suhl seems to shoot better groups than score, but I'm still learning. It will shoot 50yd 5 shot groups in the low .1's a lot of times. My best group to date was .076ctc. Just a hair bigger than this smiley
I brush my barrel every 4-6 boxes. Brad
YES. If you are a benchrest competitor, you will get slightly better accuracy out of your rimfire by cleaning it frequently with a brush. The guys who do this will also usually admit that it's hard on the barrel.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1990429&postcount=41
http://members.cox.net/benchrest/Rimfire_notes.html#Assort
See article #74.
This guy found that cleaning frequently and thoroughly with a brush shrank his average group size (average of 8 groups) by two hundredths of an inch...that's 0.02". He also notes that he wore out two rimfire barrels in the last year or so. That's pretty amazing considering that a rimfire barrel should normally last several lifetimes.
Brad Clodfelter
New member
John,
I've read that many of times over and over. Maybe the guy just wasn't using the best rod or bore guide either. There's a lot of maybes there that you or I just don't know. I do know that my original Suhl barrel that I recently had Gene Davis take off my Suhl to put a Benchmark barrel on, was still shooting itsy bitsy holes for groups. It probably would out shoot a lot of barrels at least for groups in my honest opinion. The barrel was stamped 11/74 meaning Nov of 1974 for when it was made. I bought it from a guy in MI who said he used a brush to clean it. He bought it from a guy in CA. The guy in CA bought it from a guy in NC. The guy in NC bought it from someone else not sure of the state. So that's at least 5 owners who owed this Suhl that still shot holes for groups when I rebarreled it. I would bet money that a many of a rod with a brush was ran through the bore. It shot great when I bought it, and even when I had the original barrel taken off for a new Benchmark barrel as I said. Most people would die to have a barrel that shot this good straight from the factory. I know I put a many of a brush and rod through the bore. I ask Gene Davis to borescope the Suhl barrel because I plan to later put it on a another gun. He said the barrel looked good to him according to the borescope. That's a barrel that is 33 years old with several I don't know how many thousands of rounds through the bore.
I'll leave you a tidbit of how it shot at 25yds with Eley Biathlon EPS. This was .021ctc from a wore out brushed barrel by the way.
At 50yds it would shoot in the low .2's are less quite often.
Here's another where I actually was shooting out my aiming point which was dead center.
Now if cleaning a barrel the right way with the right bore guide and a good hard rod wears out a barrel, my Suhl barrel must have been hardheaded.
No hype here, just the cold hard truth.
I've read that many of times over and over. Maybe the guy just wasn't using the best rod or bore guide either. There's a lot of maybes there that you or I just don't know. I do know that my original Suhl barrel that I recently had Gene Davis take off my Suhl to put a Benchmark barrel on, was still shooting itsy bitsy holes for groups. It probably would out shoot a lot of barrels at least for groups in my honest opinion. The barrel was stamped 11/74 meaning Nov of 1974 for when it was made. I bought it from a guy in MI who said he used a brush to clean it. He bought it from a guy in CA. The guy in CA bought it from a guy in NC. The guy in NC bought it from someone else not sure of the state. So that's at least 5 owners who owed this Suhl that still shot holes for groups when I rebarreled it. I would bet money that a many of a rod with a brush was ran through the bore. It shot great when I bought it, and even when I had the original barrel taken off for a new Benchmark barrel as I said. Most people would die to have a barrel that shot this good straight from the factory. I know I put a many of a brush and rod through the bore. I ask Gene Davis to borescope the Suhl barrel because I plan to later put it on a another gun. He said the barrel looked good to him according to the borescope. That's a barrel that is 33 years old with several I don't know how many thousands of rounds through the bore.
I'll leave you a tidbit of how it shot at 25yds with Eley Biathlon EPS. This was .021ctc from a wore out brushed barrel by the way.
At 50yds it would shoot in the low .2's are less quite often.
Here's another where I actually was shooting out my aiming point which was dead center.
Now if cleaning a barrel the right way with the right bore guide and a good hard rod wears out a barrel, my Suhl barrel must have been hardheaded.
No hype here, just the cold hard truth.
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Here's a flash for some of you! Today's stainless rimfire barrels are much softer than chrome-moly and last about 1/10th as long in benchrest competition. Some stainless barrels start to lose their edge in as little as 8,000 rounds.
The good news is that they break-in much quicker than chrome-moly barrels.
This comes from a top benchrest gunsmith.
Picher
The good news is that they break-in much quicker than chrome-moly barrels.
This comes from a top benchrest gunsmith.
Picher
For my bughole rimfires...
I only clean the chamber and muzzle crown, using a Q-Tip soaked with Ed's Red.
I've noticed, particularly in my Shilen-barreled FrankenRuger 10-22, that if I clean the bore, it takes time for groups to settle down afterwards, particularly with my favorite Eley, RWS, and Federal Gold Medal Match. It appears that the wax lube coating from those brands of premium target ammo needs to stay consistent in the bore.
Some BR-50 folks I talk to do the same thing.
YMMV, of course.
I only clean the chamber and muzzle crown, using a Q-Tip soaked with Ed's Red.
I've noticed, particularly in my Shilen-barreled FrankenRuger 10-22, that if I clean the bore, it takes time for groups to settle down afterwards, particularly with my favorite Eley, RWS, and Federal Gold Medal Match. It appears that the wax lube coating from those brands of premium target ammo needs to stay consistent in the bore.
Some BR-50 folks I talk to do the same thing.
YMMV, of course.
Brad Clodfelter
New member
This is definately a thread that always seems to never come to an end. Some guys say never run a brush through a rimfire barrel. The ole it will be death to your bore is what a lot of guys believe. I'm not here to change their minds, but rather to show proof that a barrel that has had many of brushes in all likihood through the bore, can still shoot one single hole groups at 25 and 50yds. That tells me that a brush and good hard rod, used correctly with a good bore guide will not harm a rimfire barrel at least not for a many of a year is what I believe. Those that think otherwise can keep on doing what they are doing. But all I ask is don't spread false allocations about cleaning a rimfire barrel when done correctly.
Brad
Brad
I don't have a problem believing that.
Not really. It tells you that "a brush and good hard rod, used correctly with a good bore guide will not harm a" Suhl barrel.
I wonder how well the information pertaining specifically to your barrel applies to the barrel on a typical $100-$200 .22 rifle.
But even if we accept that it's universally applicable, that only answers half the question. The other half is: "What's the benefit in scrubbing out your .22LR rifle bore after ever target or even every session?" 0.02" average group size decrease doesn't balance the books in my opinion.
Brad Clodfelter
New member
John,
That is what he said he found. He also said he ruined 2 rimfire barrels in less than a year. If I ruined 2 barrels in a year, I would be figuring out what I was doing wrong. No one I know of is going through that many barrels by either shooting or cleaning them. Ask anyone who shoots competitive rimfire benchrest if they brush their barrels. My bet is that most who are winning are in fact using a brush every so often. And they aren't wearing out their barrels either. The fact is that most barrels will in fact shoot better from a clean barrel vs one that is dirty. A happy barrel is a clean barrel. Some other barrels may shoot more than just .020 better from a brushed barrel vs one that isn't. Yes and some barrels may shoot better dirty vs being cleaned. But having said that, from what I have seen I would say that it's safe to say that most barrels will shoot better being brushed. And those that don't, probably ain't much of a precision barrel to begin with. And eventually depending on the ammo you shoot, once the barrel leads up from those barrels that never had a brush ran through them, will in fact lose their accuracy until you brush the barrel. Now some may never lead up, but some will. And when it happens, the owner may think his barrel quit shooting and buy another gun when in fact all he would have to do is scrub the lead out with a good brush and solvent.
Now having said that, for hunting purposes only, you may never have to clean a barrel and still be plenty accurate to always be in a squirrels head. But I myself would rather shoot from a barrel that I know is clean. The only way I know that my rimfire barrel is clean is to brush the bore. I have yet to ruin any rimfire barrel by brushing the bore, or to affect the accuracy in a negative way.
Brad
That is what he said he found. He also said he ruined 2 rimfire barrels in less than a year. If I ruined 2 barrels in a year, I would be figuring out what I was doing wrong. No one I know of is going through that many barrels by either shooting or cleaning them. Ask anyone who shoots competitive rimfire benchrest if they brush their barrels. My bet is that most who are winning are in fact using a brush every so often. And they aren't wearing out their barrels either. The fact is that most barrels will in fact shoot better from a clean barrel vs one that is dirty. A happy barrel is a clean barrel. Some other barrels may shoot more than just .020 better from a brushed barrel vs one that isn't. Yes and some barrels may shoot better dirty vs being cleaned. But having said that, from what I have seen I would say that it's safe to say that most barrels will shoot better being brushed. And those that don't, probably ain't much of a precision barrel to begin with. And eventually depending on the ammo you shoot, once the barrel leads up from those barrels that never had a brush ran through them, will in fact lose their accuracy until you brush the barrel. Now some may never lead up, but some will. And when it happens, the owner may think his barrel quit shooting and buy another gun when in fact all he would have to do is scrub the lead out with a good brush and solvent.
Now having said that, for hunting purposes only, you may never have to clean a barrel and still be plenty accurate to always be in a squirrels head. But I myself would rather shoot from a barrel that I know is clean. The only way I know that my rimfire barrel is clean is to brush the bore. I have yet to ruin any rimfire barrel by brushing the bore, or to affect the accuracy in a negative way.
Brad
I'm not being dogmatic one way or the other, but I find it interesting that the real support for aggressive cleaning of a .22LR barrel seems to always come from the benchresters.
I'm certainly not saying that they're wrong, but having had a bit of contact with the centerfire benchrest crowd, I find that what they consider reasonable, what they consider to be a huge benefit, and what they consider critical are all very different from the considerations of the average shooter (or even the average competitive shooter who's not a benchrester).
Since you provided a summation, I'll do likewise.
1. Most, if not all rimfire barrels need to be cleaned aggressively to maintain the absolute best accuracy possible, but the accuracy improvement between normal treatment (infrequent cleaning and not using a brush) and this type of treatment is not likely to be noticed by the vast majority of shooters. This type of treatment if applied properly (bore guide, good rod, etc.) will probably not harm a high quality barrel but will almost certainly introduce additional wear to most barrels.
2. Some rimfire barrels lead enough that they need to be cleaned fairly frequently to maintain reasonable accuracy. Some apparently don't lead at all and will maintain excellent accuracy (sub MOA) with no bore cleaning at all**.
**I happen to have a rifle like that. I may put a rod through it one day, but I'm in no hurry as long as it's shooting that well.
I'm certainly not saying that they're wrong, but having had a bit of contact with the centerfire benchrest crowd, I find that what they consider reasonable, what they consider to be a huge benefit, and what they consider critical are all very different from the considerations of the average shooter (or even the average competitive shooter who's not a benchrester).
Since you provided a summation, I'll do likewise.
1. Most, if not all rimfire barrels need to be cleaned aggressively to maintain the absolute best accuracy possible, but the accuracy improvement between normal treatment (infrequent cleaning and not using a brush) and this type of treatment is not likely to be noticed by the vast majority of shooters. This type of treatment if applied properly (bore guide, good rod, etc.) will probably not harm a high quality barrel but will almost certainly introduce additional wear to most barrels.
2. Some rimfire barrels lead enough that they need to be cleaned fairly frequently to maintain reasonable accuracy. Some apparently don't lead at all and will maintain excellent accuracy (sub MOA) with no bore cleaning at all**.
**I happen to have a rifle like that.
I may put a rod through it one day, but I'm in no hurry as long as it's shooting that well.Brad Clodfelter
New member
John,
I see your point. And you are right. I can agree with what your saying. And by all means keep doing what your doing if your gun is shooting good.
Brad
I see your point. And you are right. I can agree with what your saying. And by all means keep doing what your doing if your gun is shooting good.
Brad
Actually this topic is quite interesting to me. There's a similar debate in the airgun world and the arguments and reasons on both sides are very similar.
I would LOVE to have:
Hardness testing results for a range of rimfire barrels. I've always heard that many rimfire barrels are pretty soft (as firearm barrels go) but I've NEVER seen a single number to back it up.
Hardness numbers for typical rimfire bore brushes AND some testing to see what (if any) effect the brushes have on steels with the hardness numbers from above. My informal research indicates that bronze can have a hardness range that overlaps the bottom edge of the steel hardness range, but there's way too much left to guesswork without some real data to work from.
Some more accuracy comparisons on cleaning vs not cleaning vs cleaning with a brush. These would almost HAVE to come from a benchrester since most of us probably aren't shooting well enough to notice the differences except in barrels with a pretty obvious tendency to lead/foul. Again, I've seen very little in the way of numbers here.
Unlike the caliber wars, THIS argument is one that could be put to rest with numbers that SHOULD be obtainable... If I had the time and money, I think that spending a couple of years finding the answers would be about the most fun someone could have!
I would LOVE to have:
Hardness testing results for a range of rimfire barrels. I've always heard that many rimfire barrels are pretty soft (as firearm barrels go) but I've NEVER seen a single number to back it up.
Hardness numbers for typical rimfire bore brushes AND some testing to see what (if any) effect the brushes have on steels with the hardness numbers from above. My informal research indicates that bronze can have a hardness range that overlaps the bottom edge of the steel hardness range, but there's way too much left to guesswork without some real data to work from.
Some more accuracy comparisons on cleaning vs not cleaning vs cleaning with a brush. These would almost HAVE to come from a benchrester since most of us probably aren't shooting well enough to notice the differences except in barrels with a pretty obvious tendency to lead/foul. Again, I've seen very little in the way of numbers here.
Unlike the caliber wars, THIS argument is one that could be put to rest with numbers that SHOULD be obtainable... If I had the time and money, I think that spending a couple of years finding the answers would be about the most fun someone could have!