Nevada "Stand Your Ground " Case

leadcounsel said:
I'll note that post #39 affirms exactly what I wrote above, linking to the article about the threats reported by adjacent property owners, and the rest.
No it absolutely does not. It in no way supports your sloppily stated claims.

In contrast to this drivel you posted in post 36:
leadcounsel said:
The real injustice is that this poor property owner spent the last 14 months on trial for murder and attempted murder. I've seen this type of political charging and it's baloney. This should have never seen a courtroom...
Branca noted:
Andrew Branca said:
...This was something of an unusual successfully argued self-defense case in that arguably the fight did not come to Burgarello, but rather he went to the fight...
and
Andrew Branca said:
...Prosecutors had sought a first-degree murder conviction because of that fact that Burgarello armed himself and “went to the fight” arguably to seek a deadly confrontation....
and
Andrew Branca said:
...Witnesses testified at trial that Brugarello had talked of plans to hide inside the units for squatters to enter and then “shoot them,” and thus premeditating the shootings....
and
Andrew Branca said:
...Prosecutors argued that Burgarello opened fire without lawful provocation immediately after he awoke the sleeping Devine and Wilson by challenging their presence, a claim based on the testimony of the surviving Wilson....

In other words, there was in fact evidence to support the prosecution. However, the prosecution was unsuccessful in overcoming Burgarello's self defense plea.

leadcounsel said:
Here are a few points from an actual criminal trial lawyer (me) who has real world trial experience, who actually understands the law, citing open source news:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/05/verdict-in-squatter-shooting-case-not-guilty/
Are you now claiming to be Andrew Branca. Preposterous. I need proof, or you owe us all a retraction.
 
I think that the " fight coming to you" or being in someother way "unavoidable" is (or should be) a key element of self defense.

If i have gone looking for the encounter without some dire need (defense of a family member, as an example) then proving self defense is much harder
 
Frank Ettin: Are you now claiming to be Andrew Branca. Preposterous. I need proof, or you owe us all a retraction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
I'll note that post #39 affirms exactly what I wrote above, linking to the article about the threats reported by adjacent property owners, and the rest.
Frank Ettin: No it absolutely does not. It in no way supports your sloppily stated claims.

Mr. Ettin, it seems you're taking this quite personal and it should not be. I'm not Mr. Branca, nor did I ever claim to be. Please re-read my posting. The link I posted provides all the quoted material you wrote. And using words like "drivel" undermine your position.

Perhaps my posts are rapid and not as artful or researched or as polished as they might otherwise be if this were my full time job, posting on TFL. By comparison, we've both been members here since 2005, and you have nearly 7 times as many postings. I reference that only to draw the point that this isn't my job. Perhaps if I spent 30 minutes on each posting, and attached supplement briefs, they would be more clear and precise...

I will note that this morning I received an unsolicited message from a stranger and member here, who said the following:
Thanks for the trial lawyer breakdown of the Nevada case. I'm in no way a highly educated person, but I do try to understand the law. Your post helps me with that a great deal.
So apparently my input is appreciated.

We are using common language in discussing a case that was ALREADY DECIDED IN FAVOR OF THE DEFENDANT.

I've stated his conduct was a dumb decision. I've stated we don't do self-help laws, which is effectively what he was doing.

I've also given darn good on-the-fly analysis. But note r. Branca is presumably 1) not here to give an analysis and 2) is just one guy's opinion.

And NOT ONLY do I agree to many of Mr. Branca's points, I've said as much myself.

But I also disagree with him - I see marginal logical difference to a civilian going about your daily business carrying a gun when there is always a chance of confrontation (in public where your rights are diminished somewhat) versus carrying a gun to your property where there is a higher chance of confrontation (greater rights but greater chance of confrontation). For instance, liquor stores, banks, and convenience stores have a fair chance for violent robbery. Are you "going looking for a fight" if you walk into one of these establishments while carrying a gun? Quite a stretch indeed.

I also don't see him going to a "fight." I suspect his statements about lying in wait were made in jest. I view him as taking reasonable precautions for an unpredictable situation by going to his property armed. He didn't go in guns blazing. We know he yelled in some commands. When he entered he saw what he viewed and reasonably believed to be a gun so he fired in self defense.

The "2 guns" issue is akin to when the media reports someone pulled over with an arsenal of guns, and we learn it's a hunting rifle and a handgun and box of bullets. Too much is made of being armed and going into a situation. Would he have been smarter to go unarmed to a possibly dangerous situation? His being armed, as his attorney argued, is a Red Herring and irrelevant because it was his right to be armed.

Apparently the finder of fact - again - agrees with my take in this instance.
 
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leadcounsel said:
Mr. Ettin, it seems you're taking this quite personal...
My concern here, as in similar threads in which legal issues are discussed, is that poor or poorly communicated, and possibly misunderstood, information can be harmful, and thus a serious disservice to the readers of TFL. People can make bad decisions in reliance on bad or unclear information.

leadcounsel said:
....Perhaps my posts are rapid and not as artful or researched or as polished as they might otherwise be if this were my full time job, posting on TFL....
But inartful, poorly researched, or unpolished posts, especially dealing with important subjects when made by one claiming special subject matter expertise, and upon which other can reasonably be expected to rely, is a disservice to TFL readers and a disservice to the TFL community. Such posts can be inaccurate, misunderstood, or misleading; and they could lead readers to make damaging decisions.

leadcounsel said:
I will note that this morning I received an unsolicited message from a stranger and member here, who said the following:
Thanks for the trial lawyer breakdown of the Nevada case. I'm in no way a highly educated person, but I do try to understand the law. Your post helps me with that a great deal.
So apparently my input is appreciated...
Which really means nothing. He might think that your input has helped him understand the legal issues here, when he might really have been led to misunderstand things.

leadcounsel said:
...We are using common language in discussing a case that was ALREADY DECIDED IN FAVOR OF THE DEFENDANT.....
Yes it has been. However, as Branca outlined, the prosecution had some facts strongly supporting its case, but in this particular case it appears that the following factors particular to Mr. Burgarello's situation allowed him to build a case the prosecution could not overcome:

  • Owners of adjacent properties had been threatened with lethal force by squatters.

  • The local police had not been effectively dealing with squatters.

  • There was physical evidence to support Mr. Burgarello's claim that he reasonably believed that he was threatened with a gun.
Otherwise, the outcome might not have been as happy for Mr. Burgarello.

So Mr. Burgarello was lucky things worked out, and this case should not be understood to encourage his type of actions. Understanding this case differently could cause one to make some very bad decisions which could result in a very unhappy ending for himself.

leadcounsel said:
...I've also given darn good on-the-fly analysis...
You no doubt think so, but I don't. In any case, and "on-the-fly" analysis of a complex matter by one claiming subject matter expertise simply isn't helpful to anyone.
 
That's plausible. Sending to prison a 74 year old retired schoolteacher who has suffered strokes, has had two heart attacks, is a thyroid cancer survivor, and has eye problems, may not serve the interests of justice.

leadcounsel, I don't know if you're simply playing the part of a defense lawyer, but this case is very simple:

Burgarello previously stated, it appears multiple times, that he wanted to lie in wait for squatters and shoot them. If you look at the history of frustration with repeated theft, squatters, and vandalism, it becomes very unlikely he was joking.

Burgarello stated he didn't call police because the squatters might have left before the police got there. He therefore wanted something more than simply for them to leave. He wanted a confrontation. I have yet to see an explanation for why a sane person without malice would create a confrontation with intruders.

Can you just imagine what would have happened if Burgarello had taken the stand? If he wanted the squatters gone, he could have called police. He wanted to confront them... and do what? What would a confrontation accomplish that their leaving before or after police arrived wouldn't accomplish? If he didn't know how many people were inside and that they were probably no danger, he was out of his right mind trying to confront them like that. "Were you so angry about the long string of vandalism, theft, and squatting, that you didn't think of the risk to yourself in confronting them like that?" If he did know that they were probably no danger, why did he arm himself with two guns? ("Do you normally carry two guns?") If he wasn't enraged and confronted them in the heat of passion, that leaves cold, calculated premeditated murder. How would he avoid being trapped by the questioning, and by his prior statements, into admitting a passionate crime of murder, or a dispassionate one? And if those are the two options, it doesn't matter that he didn't take the stand, does it? If you as a jury member don't know whether it's first or second degree murder, but it's one of them, don't you convict on second degree?

The alternatives, attempted suicide by squatter or inability to foresee reasonable consequences of his actions, point to some sort of diminished capacity or temporary insanity, but he was found competent to stand trial.

The truthfulness of the squatter, and drugs in either squatter's blood, and everything else the defense focused on about the moments in that room and what happened after, simply don't matter. I don't dispute that anyone in a dark room with squatters is justified in shooting them in self defense if they move at all. If you wake someone up, what are the chances they won't move around in a possibly threatening manner? The only thing to do, if you value human life, is not to create a situation like that if you have a choice. Burgarello had a choice.

If you don't also consider that the mindset and motivation for forcing such an encounter points to a murderous motive, anyone with property that has squatters can engineer a situation where they are likely to get away with killing those squatters. If that's your interpretation of self defense statutes, I'm at a loss. You don't have to like drug using squatters, but if you can't sympathize with them as human beings enough to see that legal conclusion as wrong by any reasonable standard...

A liquor store is higher risk than a McDonald's, but those, and other scenarios you present have vastly different risks and probabilities than walking in on sleeping squatters. Carrying two guns is fine. Lots of people carry back up guns. The problem is that Burgarello didn't (or at least I see no claims that he did). He armed himself specifically for this encounter (and not even very well... he was carrying the guns in his hands and he didn't carry spare ammo... he really didn't think this through). If I normally didn't carry a gun and I jam one into my jeans before getting into a confrontation that ends up with me shooting someone, the prosecutor is going to skewer me on why I decided to arm myself that one time, nevermind that it's legal. Did I know I was going to get into a life-threatening confrontation? It sure seems like it...

Based on his medical history and the history of his experiences in that neighborhood and on his property, I'd even be amenable to temporary insanity or diminished capacity, but those weren't on the table or weren't pursued. What's left? All I see is murder.
 
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There's a good chance the shooter was financially ruined defending himself. According to some reports that house had been empty for for years. Was it worth it: i don't think so.

i own two rural properties with old unoccupied houses. No way would i enter either of those old houses with the intention of ejecting squatters. Nothing there worth killing someone over.
 
Tyme said: leadcounsel, I don't know if you're simply playing the part of a defense lawyer, but this case is very simple:

Burgarello previously stated, it appears multiple times, that he wanted to lie in wait for squatters and shoot them. If you look at the history of frustration with repeated theft, squatters, and vandalism, it becomes very unlikely he was joking.

Burgarello stated he didn't call police because the squatters might have left before the police got there. He therefore wanted something more than simply for them to leave. He wanted a confrontation. I have yet to see an explanation for why a sane person without malice would create a confrontation with intruders.

Can you just imagine what would have happened if Burgarello had taken the stand? If he wanted the squatters gone, he could have called police. He wanted to confront them... and do what? What would a confrontation accomplish that their leaving before or after police arrived wouldn't accomplish? If he didn't know how many people were inside and that they were probably no danger, he was out of his right mind trying to confront them like that. "Were you so angry about the long string of vandalism, theft, and squatting, that you didn't think of the risk to yourself in confronting them like that?" If he did know that they were probably no danger, why did he arm himself with two guns? ("Do you normally carry two guns?") If he wasn't enraged and confronted them in the heat of passion, that leaves cold, calculated premeditated murder. How would he avoid being trapped by the questioning, and by his prior statements, into admitting a passionate crime of murder, or a dispassionate one? And if those are the two options, it doesn't matter that he didn't take the stand, does it? If you as a jury member don't know whether it's first or second degree murder, but it's one of them, don't you convict on second degree?

Your view, Tyme, is totally counter to the unanimous members of the jury. A lot of "what ifs" and evidence that apparently either was speculation or unreliable or refuted at trial - where it actually matters. I appreciate the lively debate, but evidently it's not so "simple" - in fact reality is totally opposite of what you're viewpoint is. Keep in mind this was not a hung jury. It was a unanimous vote for not guilty by the jury (I'm licensed in CO and WA, and not a Nevada attorney for full disclosure, but most jurisdictions require 10 or 12 jurors for felony trials). So, perhaps a dozen people unanimously believed he did not commit a crime, or that the shootings were justifiable. That's quite powerful indeed. Heck, it's hard to get 10 people to agree on pizza toppings, let alone a Not Guilty verdict.

He gave a statement to the police, and therein he explained what he did. I have not read the entire statement, but the important bits were reported and apparently those statements were used to maximum impact by both parties. The excerpt I read pretty clearly communicated a valid self-defense case and again I stand by my statement that the prosecution brought a case DOA against responsible charging doctrines IMO.

Can you just imagine what would have happened if Burgarello had taken the stand?
He likely took good advice from his lawyer, and as we all know or should understand, his failure to take the stand is not part of the equation in determining guilt on the principles espoused in the 5th Amendment.

Thallub said: There's a good chance the shooter was financially ruined defending himself. According to some reports that house had been empty for for years. Was it worth it: i don't think so.

i own two rural properties with old unoccupied houses. No way would i enter either of those old houses with the intention of ejecting squatters. Nothing there worth killing someone over.

We can dissect the case play by play as some here would like to do. However, having actually tried felony level criminal defense cases as both a prosecutor and defense lawyer, each case is unique down to the individual juror and their belief system. We can second guess this or that, play "what ifs" all day.

Since there's no way to effectively advise based on this or that variable, I advise based on the law and good principles of behavior and second and third order consequences. Thallub has nailed it. In short, you may win the battle but lose the war. The defendant was IMO within his rights to do what he did. However as I've now said in as many as 3 posts, it was a really, really dumb idea. It ended very badly - one dead, one injured, and a criminal trial. Obviously he could have been convicted and spent the remainder of his life in prison. He knew or suspected that possibly armed squatters were therein. He could have predicted a likely confrontation of some sort, from zero to peaceable or violent. The spectrum leads to worst case scenarios where he was either injured, or forced to shoot someone and arrested and convicted. Extremely dumb behavior when weighing the spectrum of outcomes and costs/benefits.

I've personally seen the stress of serious felony charges on a man (innocent and guilty) of long term. It's terrible. No doubt he spent the last 14 months extremely stressed, loss of sleep, and probably drained his coffers (felony murder defense generally starts mid-5 digits and can reach 6 digits $).

So, the takeaway is to do an analysis of cost/benefit and/or risk analysis of a course of action, and think a few steps down the road. If it's going to possibly end up with you forced to kill someone over property, facing criminal charges and spending $50,000 on a defense of same, then you're heading in the wrong direction.

I think the jury came to the correct decision. However, a different jury or jurisdiction could have resulted in a conviction or a hung jury and a retrial.

To be crystal clear for those wanting to pick apart...
1. Don't plan to use lethal force to protect property, settle disputes, or evict people. The Defendant made a series of gravely bad decisions.
2. While it did help him in this case, it usually does not. Don't make casual statements to police if you're involved in a shooting with the exception if you are sophisticated and know precise language to use - for instance simply pointing out evidence and telling them you feared for your life, acted in self defense to stop a threat, and end your statement with wanting to talk to your lawyer who you have retained previously.
3. Similarly, don't have a reputation as a "gun nut" or make statements to others that you plan to lie in wait, or are going to go "kill someone" because you may or may not be joking, but those statements can be part of a charging decision even if just made in jest.
4. Ensure top notch criminal defense team. Self defense insurance is a good idea. His acquittal was likely attributed to both the facts and his lawyers expertise at impeaching the prosecutions witnesses, putting on effective defense witnesses, and making critically good arguments. That takes terrific skill and expertise.
 
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Alright Councelors.... if you want to have a contest. I as the Joe Q Public feel that it is germaine to the conversation that you disclose your specialty of legal practice. If you are a tort lawyer, then it goes to the civil suit that may come after. If you are a defense lawyer, then it goes to the meat grinder that is the criminal case. If you are a corporate lawyer, well. And if you are an ITAR, or Im/Ex lawer then it goes to an entirely other direction. Realestate law??? another direction again.

I understand that there are many specialties in law as there are in medicine, engineering, and other fields. If you want to continue having a P. Contest, then full disclosure is in order. Otherwise you do all of us a disservice.
 
SHR970 said:
...I as the Joe Q Public feel that it is germaine to the conversation that you disclose your specialty of legal practice....
If you had bothered to pay attention to the discussion you might have noticed that I was relying primarily on what Andrew Branca had written about this case. And Mr. Branca practices criminal law and has made a special study of self defense.
 
I did.. and in the past. IIRC you are a tort lawyer. Since you threw down the glove, I feel it is fair that all of you disclose.

If I go for quick google references, you come out as a commercial real estate attorney at first blush. This may or may not be the truth but that is why my statement. To say that it does not matter, one must believe we are all fools. I do not believe that you would or are promoting a fallacy; but at this point full disclosure appears in my mind to be in order.
 
I feel it is fair that all of you disclose.

I think that's a very fair request. I've been licensed and practicing law for over a decade, am license in two states, and have over half of my career in criminal law practice mixed prosecution and defense. I've successfully prosecuted and defended serious felony charges, including many assaults with weapons and without weapons, etc. and had many cases where the self-defense issues have been raised. Similarly, in my area of practice, I've had countless hours (perhaps hundreds?) of legal continuing educational credits on criminal law issues, which always cover defenses to crimes (such as self defense).

You can see a sample of my work experiences, licenses, credentials, victories, and recommendations and testimonials from supervisors, peers and clients in my work as a criminal defense lawyer and general practitioner.

Www.rsweetlaw.com

Also on LinkedIn and Avvo (the ratings there are bogus generated from paid ads which I don't do on Avvo).
 
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