Need some serious advice

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I'll say this once only.

I'm 22 living on my own. I got laid off, been unemployed for 4 months. Now i dont know how much responsibility it takes to keep one alive and striving but i do know that it takes way more responsibility to find a job in this dieng economy and to put food onto the table then it does to legally own a gun.

I never once applied for unemployment benefits due to the fact im a fighter and i'll 'never' and i mean NEVER call the cops to protect my own life because im the one in control of it.
 
MNResident said:
I'll say this once only.

I'm 22 living on my own. I got laid off, been unemployed for 4 months. Now i dont know how much responsibility it takes to keep one alive and striving but i do know that it takes way more responsibility to find a job in this dieng economy and to put food onto the table then it does to legally own a gun.

I never once applied for unemployment benefits due to the fact im a fighter and i'll 'never' and i mean NEVER call the cops to protect my own life because im the one in control of it.

A 22 year old kid with all the answers? You sound like my son... :)

Take the advice that's been offered. If you ever have to shoot, you don't shoot to kill; you shoot to STOP. That means aiming center-mass and squeezing the trigger until the threat ceases.

Yes, i will truly kill someone if the pose a serious threat, but if they have a knife/tazer/bat ill order them to get on the floor so they can be dealt w/ a lesser punishment Aka LEO's & Court.

If you think a knife or a bat isn't a serious threat you need to change your way of thinking. If he's far enough away that you can point a gun at him and order him to the ground you will most likely wind up arrested for brandishing a weapon. Threatening anyone with a firearm is a serious offense. If they are far enough away for you to retreat that is exactly what you should do even if you are armed.

As far as calling the police goes, that's what we pay them to do. Protect yourself when you have to but get the heck out of Dodge and call the law when you can. Retreat is always our first obligation. The best way to survive a fight is to avoid it.

Another bit of advice is to never say never or always. Those two words tend to get folks in trouble later on when they do or don't do something. ;)
 
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if they have a knife/tazer/bat ill order them to get on the floor

I can also guarantee you that if you give me a knife or a bat and I'm within 10 feet of you, I can either disarm you or kill you in the time it takes for you to realize that I'm a threat and pull the trigger.

A grown man with a reasonable about of physical fitness can cover 10 feet in less than 2 seconds. Also, just because you can get a shot off, doesn't mean you're safe. Momentum will carry someone who's been shot in the kneecap and if he was close enough to begin with, that knife/bat he's carrying can very easily kill you even after he's been disabled.

Add a rush of adrenaline, shaky hands, and your sense of "morals", you'll find that hitting the same target as he's dodging and weaving becomes much harder, even at 10 feet.
 
You can order them to the ground all you want, doesn't mean they'll comply.

From your posts I get the feeling you've been watching movies and TV which has formed an idea as to how a BG will react when a gun is presented. After reading hundreds of factual self defense accounts, I can tell you it's not the same. Fortunately I've not run into a 'situation' yet, but I have a general idea what happens.

but i would never take a life. I would most likely render them defensless via shot to the limbs

I know how you feel, taking a life is just not something anybody in their right mind would WANT to do. But a firearm is a *deadly* weapon and you have to understand even a leg shot can kill...quite easily. Bad guys don't just drop to the ground when shot, they bleed out if medical assistance isn't sought in time. Many times they fight right through the full magazine.

I'd suggest you read a few books, take the training course and go from there before you consider carrying. It's not for everyone.

BTW no shame in applying for unemployment benefits. Your previous employer paid insurance on you for the fund, might as well claim it.
 
The gun, the police. Same thing. There to help you protect yourself.

MNResident said:
i'll 'never' and i mean NEVER call the cops to protect my own life because im the one in control of it.
Please forgive me for being judgemental, but put it in the form of a question:

Does that sound like the sin of Pride?

James Garner, playing one of the detectives he did so well (I cannot remember the movie/TV program, sorry) had this situation:

A client who had hired Garner for some innocuous detecting job, when some thugs showed up, called the cops. The client was not expecting that. Expected Garner to play the tough detective. Garner's reply was, "Why? That's what I pay my taxes for."

And, forgive me again for disagreeing with you, that you feel the need to go armed is proof you are not in control of your life. Even if you are armed, your odds are not better than 50-50.

If you believe the gun is your asset to protect yourself and enable you to control your life, I suggest you view the police as much the same kind of asset. They are there to protect you and enable you to control your life.

Besides, it is much better that you contact the police than that they be contacting you.

Lost Sheep
 
If you think you can hit a bad guy in the knee..

A few weeks ago a fishing guide (Greg Bush, August 2) out for a stroll on his day off was jumped by a bear. He was open carrying with a short barrelled double action revolver with which he was familiar.

It took him three shots to kill the bear.

The first shot was a clean miss. The second hit the bear in the paw (worthless for stopping a charging grizzly). The last shot was CNS (central nervous system), producing an immediate kill. Unbelievably lucky.

The bear skidded to a stop 10 feet PAST where Bush was when he first spotted the bear. If Bush had not been backing up as he shot, he would have been underneath the bear.

Change the venue to a city street:

You see a situation. (half second?)

You ascertain the situation is a threat. (another half second, maybe longer)

You evaluate that the threat calls for deadly force. (Calls for higher reasoning, 1 second, maybe several seconds)

You decide if you can safely draw or if it would be better to seek cover before drawing. What tactic to use? Throw the pizzas? Throw money? Remember, your job depends on you just giving the money and letting them go without gunplay. Would it be better to play unarmed until you can effect a stealthy draw? Or just run. All this takes time.

A few months ago Diane Sawyer on "Prime Time" did a hatchet job on the concept of armed citizens with a program named "If I only had a gun." They did have one point that was true. If you are not WELL trained and WELL practised, it is devilishly difficult to protect yourself with a gun.

Practice practice practice. Learn your responsibilities and rights. Practice more. Study tactics. Practice, practice, practice.

Good luck

Lost Sheep

Oh. After the shooting, Greg Bush, a seasoned and experienced outdoorsman who makes his LIVING in the wild, experienced the usual post-shooting adrenaline rush and come-down. He was unable to stand. Was on the verge of throwing up for a half-hour afterward. The lesson for you is that no matter how tough you are, the first time you have to shoot for your life, you will have no idea how you will react. And it's not under your conscious control. It is physiology. Accepting that you are not in control your life is the first step to taking control. It's like surfing. You ride the wave. You cannot control the wave.
 
OK, last post from me tonight

MNResident,

You have ben preached at quite a bit in the last several posts. All of good advice.

I usually recommend (situation and finances permitting) any new pistolero get a 22 rimfire either before or at the same time as they get their defensive handgun. Both guns should be as similar as you can get. 22 is cheaper to shoot in practice. And EVERYONE needs LOTS of practice to be able to hit what you want when you are in a hurry. Or in the dark. Or startled. Of facing 2 or more threats.

Try this.

Put an orange on top of a table and a basketball directly behind it.. Step back 21 feet. Pick up a couple of 1/2" smooth rocks. Close your eyes and turn around (full rotation, so you are facing the orange again, but cannot know exactly where it is). Start a stopwatch and open your eyes. Try to knock the orange off the table with the rocks.

The orange is the size of a knee. The basketball is the size of a smallish human thorasic cavity.

It is much easier to wound someone in the chest than it is to wound someone in the knee. Aim for the heart, in the heat of battle, you will be lucky to hit an arm or a knee. I think if you perform this (orange and basketball) experiment, you will give up the idea of intentionally wounding someone to stop them. It is simply too likely to fail.

The laws are clear in all 50 states. You can use deadly force only when the death of your adversary is justified by your adversary's threat. If you tell an investigator that you only meant to wound a bad guy, you are telling the prosecutor that you did not feel deadly force was justified and open yourself up to prosecution. Invest in a class that covers deadly force law before you get yourself into trouble (or invest in an hour of a criminal defense lawyer's time). Concealed Carry classes required by most states to get a permit go part of the way to getting you educated. You only have the (legal) right to display, point or shoot a gun at another person if they pose an immediate, credible (and in some jurisdictions) unavoidable threat of (again, depending on jurisdiction) death, grievous bodily harm, rape, etc. Protection of property is in almost all states NOT justification to apply deadly force of any kind. In some jurisdictionss, the burden of proof is on YOU to show the person with the bullet holes (or even near misses) was a threat in order to keep yourself out of jail.

By the way, if you do have a confrontation where any amount of force is used (including just the display of your holstered weapon), you would be well advised to call the police and report it. You NEVER want to be the second one to report to the police. If your bad guy (or even a witness behind curtains) reports a man with a gun, you will meet police who will view YOU as the suspect and it will be up to you to explain all their suspicions away (including why you did not report an attempted robbery). If you are the first to report, you meet the police as the victim rather than the suspect.

Carrying deadly force is serious business.

Despite the tenor of those words above, I do encourage you to be safe, whatever that takes.

By the way, 1,500 feet per second pellet guns are kind of rare. 1,200 fps is rare, but doable. 700 fps to 1,000 fps is common.

Which brings us to sub-lethal self-defense tools. Air and CO2 guns are not.

Mace. But it does not work against dogs.

Pepper spray. Effective against anything that walks and breathes. Also is easier to aim and to hit with. Much cheaper to buy, too. (That is my preferred self-defense weapon of choice in the woods, though it is often acompanied by a .454 Casull)

Tasers and hand-held shocking weapons are currently considered sub-lethal by the law in most places. The civilian version of the Taser is not cheap, though. The hand-held units can supply 40,000 or 50,000 volts or even more and are affordable (under $100).

Martial arts training. (A good idea whether you go armed, or semi-armed or unarmed, as it will help you keep hold of your weapon in case you wind up grappling with an assailant)

Remember, many things you think of as sub-lethal (baseball bat, nunchaku -somtimes vulgarized as "nun-chucks"- and many other striking weapons) are right up alongside the handgun and the knife as lethal weapons for purposes of prosecution.

The good old 4, 5 or 6-cell maglite flashlight is good for finding addresses marked on unlit buildings, blinding attackers with the light and, in a pinch, makes a dandy club. The ones that use C-cell batteries are about the same diameter as the old policeman's billy club, too. It slips into the retainer ring on the police equipment belt (I am told).

Tactics. Imagining scenarios is fine, but they never play out the way you think. Never.

If you saw the movie "Grand Canyon", the scene where Danny Glover talks his way out of the confrontation with the street gang is pure hollywood, but kind of gives you an idea how thin the line is between just meeting someone on the street and spilling blood. You will never out-draw the street criminal if you are carrying concealed. The criminal always has the first move and the best you can do is to be ready with the first counter-measure and responding counter-attack.

Recommended reading. These will not cost you anything but time (if you have a library card).
"No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan
"In The Gravest Extreme" or anything else written by Massad Ayoob
The home page of "Cornered Cat" web site. The focus is geared toward armed (and unarmed) women, but everything you find there has application to men. The home page is, to my mind, required reading for anyone, anywhere outside the safety of the womb.
There are many more books I can't think of right now. There was a thread on TFL that named a whole bunch.

The carrying of deadly force is serious. But it is also empowering (though not a free pass to go to stupid places). I think of it like I think of the winch on my truck. It is not there to get me into places. It is there to get me OUT of places I would not have gone into if I knew then what I know now.

By all means, carry if you must. Carry responsibly. Carry knowledgeably. Practice lots (so you can hit what you should hit and don't hit what you shouldn't hit-like innocent bystanders). Keep the mind-set of the peaceful warrior. Alert, aware and non-confrontational. The prize to your eyes is to deliver the pizza and depart with your tip. That is the winning result. Running off a bad guy is not the prize.

Good luck.

Lost Sheep
 
First I'll admit I didn't read all the post, never mind "your dream gun". I don't care who you work for, they certainly care less about your welfare. You need concealable, big enough to do the job at hand, worry about new job if something out of your control happens, keep looking anyway. Maromero "reality check" it"s in the news every day, your chances of being robbed are greater than you think, and in to days world they just as soon hurt you or kill you just for fun. As long as the general public turns a closed eye, and courts do nothing but use it"s revolving door policy the chances are not in your favor. Lost Sheep :confused::( Never go down wining or sniveling.
 
Layed off this post as long as possible buuuuut, here goes

MN resident, Frankly your 'shoot in the kneecap'(instead of center mass) mentality is a scary thing to me. Guaranteed, your not that good! The people on this forum have given you some great, well thought out advice(this isn`t the 1st disscusion on this topic,won`t be the last)which you keep responding to in a 'I don`t want to kill someone, just wound them to stop the attack' mentality. There`s not a person here that wants to hurt/kill anyone. You have to remember if the LIFE AND DEATH situation arises,you have to pull your weapon, thats just what it means- LIFE AND DEATH. Don`t pull it unless your lifes threatened. If 'god forbid' that happens I hope your thoughts change as far as shooting center mass rather than shooting at the BG`s knee,arm,earlobe or whatever as a member of somebody`s family,yours,mine(you get the pics) may very well be an innocent bystander that gets killed by your bullet bouncing off the pavement. If that happens, I guarantee you, you then would have wished you`d have aimed for that center mass/ bigger target as you have just given that BG more respect for life than the innocent person(possibly a kid) you just killed. I commend you for supporting yourself and not humping up on welfare. If your robbed and don`t see a weapon, give Dominoe`s money/pizza up fast. I also commend you for coming here and asking some serious question`s. You`ve received some valuable,knowledgeable answer`s from members that have been in this game for many,many years. IMHO it may be wise if you didn`t get a gun at this time till you`ve re-evaluated some of your thoughts.
Now i don`t know how much responsibility it takes to keep one alive and striving but i do know it takes more responsibilty to find a job in this dieing economy and put food on the table then it does to legally own a gun.
Don`t understand the point here. It takes more responsibilty to find a job then legally own/buy a car,motorcycle,booze or a pack of cigs. All of which kill more people on the streets yearly than a gun. Again I commend you for coming here seeking advice BEFORE purchasing a gun for SD but keep in mind people ALSO purchase guns for recreational use, not just SD. On a lighter note, thanks for working and keep searching for a better job
 
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Old Fashioned Choice

Some of these muggers will kill you for no reason, much less for $40 or $50.

It seems semi-autos are the recommended way to go, but what about a
Charter Arms Bulldog. I don't think too many armed robbers will break dance away from a solid hit from a 210 grain .44 special HP.
Good luck and be safe.
 
Sorry to sound condescending but I am also 22 and you sound terribly naive about what it means to carry, use or even own a handgun. I have shot almost my entire youth and I would never bank my life at "shooting his limbs" or whatever garbage you stated. If your life is threatened to the point of drawing your weapon. Center Mass. Put him down for good. Anything else will just escalate the situation.

Secondly the pistols you named seem to imply "Hollywood or video game" knowledge of firearms. USP? (COD4 perhaps?) OK sure I'll let that slide. but you wanted a Glock 18c? FOR WHAT? that just removed any creditability you had whatsoever. :barf:

I don't care how big you are what you weigh or how well you can fight. if you bring out a pistol and cannot use it to quickly and decisively end a situation... you don't have the right to carry, because there a chance you will lose your gun to you attacker and congrats. You just gave him a lethal weapon that he WILL use.

Just curious but how much actual firearm experience do you have? what have you shot? Rifles, Semis, Revolvers? centerfire, rimfire?

Do yourself a favor take you "gun money" and go find someone knowledgeable to teach you about firearms. You got a lot to learn before you should start to carry. Here at TFL is a good place to start. Some of these people have crazy knowledge that they will gladly share.

Also its not a "12 clip Magazine" its a twelve round magazine.
 
I really don't want to be mean, BUT- (that means I might be anyways)
You sound like one of those fantasy RPG video game guys who doesn't grasp the concept of reality, and or lacks common sense. You maybe the general "gifted" person who is too smart for his own good.

If you shoot someone in the leg because you didn't want to hit them in vital areas, than that tells me you weren't shooting in defense, but rather just because he was opposing you in some form and you had the option of shooting him so you do.

Personally I wouldn't feel safe if you had a gun and you kept some of your ideals. I think you should do what everyone else has said. I'm just saying it to assure you this is the right direction to take. Read books, and Input before you Output. Spend the 50 dollars and take the gun safety class, and look up your local gun laws. Also if you want to learn some good gun and self defense tactics than go to your local book store and buy some they have many to choose from and their worth it.
 
Ok, I think that the question has been answered accurately and thoroughly. Either it will sink it or it won't, but there's no point in keeping this thread alive.
 
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