Neck sizing Vs. Full length on certain cases
- Thread starter Renegade19sc
- Start date
4runnerman I was simply responded to tangolima not advocating for more neck tension. There have been countless assertions that the lee die does not provide sufficient neck tension. For those that believe it, there are options. Doesn't mean I agree. With the lee die and w a redding body die you can still fls, you simply aren't dragging an expander through the neck. Trimming is reduced, you get better run out and case life is longer. I believe sizing is easier, you can resize loaded rounds if needed. Many benefits IMO. The only downside is an extra step. I've never seen post that said accuracy was worse. I'm not advocating for neck sizing only. Never saw a benefit since you have to fls at some point.
4runnerman
New member
csmsss- Do a google search. You will find countless hits and the reasons behind it. I was doing just shoulder bump also. Till I started reading and then more important, started doing my own tests. I have since gone back to FLS with a .002 shoulder bump. Now other then my own tests and the guys I shoot with weekly and the guys I shoot matches with ( who are very willing to tell their secrets) They all FLS with just a shoulder bump. Some actually use what 1stmar is talking about and also swear by that as being best. My 6MMBR- I have cases that are going on 27 times reloaded now, Still no neck splits. The studies are out there-go find and read them. In the end it's what ever works for you i Guess.
Here is just one paragraph from a quick search.
The main goal for most reloaders is to make the most accurate handloads possible, and that often leads shooters to see how benchrest shooters are reloading. After all, nobody gets better accuracy than a good benchrest shooter. One question for reloaders is deciding whether to Neck Size (NK) or Full Length (FL) resize their cases. I used to neck size (decades ago), but I now prefer to FL resize all rifle calibers. Most benchrest shooters today use FL dies, because when full length resizing is done accurately . . . . there are no advantages to neck sizing.
1stmar-Lee does make some very good quality dies. When I first started reloading,Lee was the dies I was buying. I did not mean to imply anything bad about Lee Dies. Good quality at a low price. I have since switched to Forester and Redding dies though.
Here is just one paragraph from a quick search.
The main goal for most reloaders is to make the most accurate handloads possible, and that often leads shooters to see how benchrest shooters are reloading. After all, nobody gets better accuracy than a good benchrest shooter. One question for reloaders is deciding whether to Neck Size (NK) or Full Length (FL) resize their cases. I used to neck size (decades ago), but I now prefer to FL resize all rifle calibers. Most benchrest shooters today use FL dies, because when full length resizing is done accurately . . . . there are no advantages to neck sizing.
1stmar-Lee does make some very good quality dies. When I first started reloading,Lee was the dies I was buying. I did not mean to imply anything bad about Lee Dies. Good quality at a low price. I have since switched to Forester and Redding dies though.
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Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum, and before i post anything...I don't know if its customary here but, I wanted to introduce myself.
I'm a hunter but, more of a target shooter. I've been shooting for about 20 years and reloading for about 10 years on and off. Over the last few years I've gotten into reloading for the most accuracy possible. Well actually that's what I've always wanted but, in the last few years I've been able to achieve that for the most part. I have a lot to learn and a long way go still, I think. And mostly I look forward to sharing what I enjoy and am passionate about with others.
I wanted to reply to lost #40(I cand find how to quote somones post). I didn't see anyone mention bushing dies or not and 4runnerman doesn't mention using a bushing die while not using the expander. Bushing dies usually come with a second "nut" that holds the decapping pin but, does not expand the necks so I'm assuming he is referring to a none bushing die( I apologize if I'm wrong). I wanted to say for anyone who is thinking about taking the expander out of their non bushing type die, your necks will sized about .008 smaller than caliber size. I don't know if it either cause any problems but, you willl have some serious neck tension. Just wanted to say something in case somebody was unaware.
I'm a hunter but, more of a target shooter. I've been shooting for about 20 years and reloading for about 10 years on and off. Over the last few years I've gotten into reloading for the most accuracy possible. Well actually that's what I've always wanted but, in the last few years I've been able to achieve that for the most part. I have a lot to learn and a long way go still, I think. And mostly I look forward to sharing what I enjoy and am passionate about with others.
I wanted to reply to lost #40(I cand find how to quote somones post). I didn't see anyone mention bushing dies or not and 4runnerman doesn't mention using a bushing die while not using the expander. Bushing dies usually come with a second "nut" that holds the decapping pin but, does not expand the necks so I'm assuming he is referring to a none bushing die( I apologize if I'm wrong). I wanted to say for anyone who is thinking about taking the expander out of their non bushing type die, your necks will sized about .008 smaller than caliber size. I don't know if it either cause any problems but, you willl have some serious neck tension. Just wanted to say something in case somebody was unaware.
Bart B claims that full length sized cases are always more accurate. I can't hold hard enough to prove this, but Bart is a Palma shooter. What I can say, I don't know a single competitor Long Range, F Class, or XTC shooter who does not full length resize. The primary reason I believe is function reliability. No one wants to shoot a rapid fire alibi string, and no one wants to break position to go find a cleaning rod, to knock out a stuck case. Competitive shooters are shooting against the clock, each shot counts, and wind conditions change and change unpredictably. If a long range shooter has to take five minutes out to knock out a case, he has just eaten five minutes out of 22. Then when he gets back into position, the wind will have changed and where his next shot lands is something hard to predict.
There are proposed changes to CMP rules, that no alibis will be allowed in service rifle competition. The first time a shooter drops 90 points due to a stuck neck sized case, that will be the last time that shooter listens to internet experts and their claims about the superiority of neck sizing. I will also say, if neck sizing gave the slightest, tiny tinest advantage, neck sizing would be very popular on the firing line.
There may be some hunters who neck size, think it is the greatest thing to have a stuck case out in the middle of no where. You consider the cost of driving, lets say, to Alaska, the hotel, the guide, only to have a hunt messed up because the cleaning rod is 10 miles away at the lodge. I will bet there are neck sizing advocates who think that is just the ticket. The time when their $3,000 hunt failed because of neck sized ammunition.
Darn wind
You are correct about using a STANDARD FL die and how much they will size down a neck . It's good to point that out for the new guys that may think you can just remove the expander from a standard die. Maybe that should have been clarified better . I can tell you that most of us do use a bushing die or custom honed dies when not using the expander button .
You are correct about using a STANDARD FL die and how much they will size down a neck . It's good to point that out for the new guys that may think you can just remove the expander from a standard die. Maybe that should have been clarified better . I can tell you that most of us do use a bushing die or custom honed dies when not using the expander button .
603Country
New member
Everybody is throwing terminology around - FL, partial FL, Neck. Let's start with Neck Sizing. You are sizing the neck and nothing else. Partial FL sizing is where Bart and I used to argue. In partial sizing, you can adjust the die to resize only part of the neck and none of the case body. Or, you can adjust the die to size the neck and also bump the shoulder back by whatever desired amount. And then with FL sizing as most folks define it, you size the case till there is cam-over. With sizing to cam-over, you may or may not push the shoulder back too far, and both a body die and a FL die can both oversize brass. I do believe that you want to use your FL die to size just enough (shoulder bump), but not too much. The proper amount of sizing depends on your rifle chamber and your sizing die and the amount of bump.
And...a collet die works great if you aren't shooting hot loads. You will eventually have to bump that shoulder back, but it might be 10 reloads before you do.
And a bushing die works great too, but it is important that you know your neck wall thickness and use the proper sized bushing. And the neck wall thickness needs to be consistent among the cases you are reloading, for consistent bullet hold.
And...a collet die works great if you aren't shooting hot loads. You will eventually have to bump that shoulder back, but it might be 10 reloads before you do.
And a bushing die works great too, but it is important that you know your neck wall thickness and use the proper sized bushing. And the neck wall thickness needs to be consistent among the cases you are reloading, for consistent bullet hold.
4runnerman
New member
Darn wind- Good catch,my mistake. I did send my dies back to Redding with 5 cases, They then hone the die to .002 neck tension ( good catch).
How ever. You sparked my couriosity. I did go downstairs and check your numbers. I used my old Lee 308 Die set.
With expander ball in die set- Inside Dia- .3005
No expander ball- Inside Dia- .2965
.004 difference. Now I am sure better quality dies will give different answers. in so much as the quality of brass and neck thickness will vary that number also.
But one would need to check, with that in mind .004 neck tension is in no way to much neck tension. If it were not for the fact that I shoot Comp I would probebly have left my dies alone.
How ever. You sparked my couriosity. I did go downstairs and check your numbers. I used my old Lee 308 Die set.
With expander ball in die set- Inside Dia- .3005
No expander ball- Inside Dia- .2965
.004 difference. Now I am sure better quality dies will give different answers. in so much as the quality of brass and neck thickness will vary that number also.
But one would need to check, with that in mind .004 neck tension is in no way to much neck tension. If it were not for the fact that I shoot Comp I would probebly have left my dies alone.
OK so I've been seeing this partial FL sizing thrown around as well . I'm not really getting it . Only because I don't understand FL sizing . Now don't get me wrong . I'm quite clear on what "I'm" doing just not sure what it's called .
Lets start with FL sizing . I had quite the debate around a year ago about what is FULL LENGTH SIZING . At the time I was what I believed to be ( and still do ) FL sizing my cases . My die was adjusted down enough to make contact with the shell holder when ram was up . The thing was my shell holder and die were not making contact with one another when sizing a case . There would be about .004 gap when case was in die and ram was fully up do to press deflection .
Example , and these pics were taken to show how much press deflection I could get in a extreme event . They are for illustration only as to what was happening before I started using competition shell holders .
No case in die
Ram fully up while sizing the case
Now I've always considered that FL sizing even though my shell holder and die were not touching when sizing . Reason is I was sizing down the body as well as bumping the shoulders .
Partial FL sizing seems impossible . You're either are FL sizing or not . I'd think dropping the FL in that term and just say partial sizing would be more accurate .
Example . I have since went to using competition shell holders . These allow me the size my cases the exact same size as I was before but now making HARD contact with the shell holder and die .
So I have to ask in either of the ways I sized cases . Am I FL sizing my cases ?
1) have the die touching the shell holder before sizing but not while ?
2) Have the die and shell holder making HARD contact with cam over using competition shell holders
If I use a standard shell holder and either of my Redding dies ( standard or bushing ) and make hard contact with cam over . The cases are sized down so far for any of my 308 chambers that it's almost unsafe . It would/is unsafe if loaded a second or third time sizing the same way .
My point , FL sizing a case to what many consider the definition is . Would not be what I would ever recommend unless that was the only way to get the case to chamber in your rifle . In general you will be creating to much head clearance in the chamber by doing so .
Lets start with FL sizing . I had quite the debate around a year ago about what is FULL LENGTH SIZING . At the time I was what I believed to be ( and still do ) FL sizing my cases . My die was adjusted down enough to make contact with the shell holder when ram was up . The thing was my shell holder and die were not making contact with one another when sizing a case . There would be about .004 gap when case was in die and ram was fully up do to press deflection .
Example , and these pics were taken to show how much press deflection I could get in a extreme event . They are for illustration only as to what was happening before I started using competition shell holders .
No case in die
Ram fully up while sizing the case
Now I've always considered that FL sizing even though my shell holder and die were not touching when sizing . Reason is I was sizing down the body as well as bumping the shoulders .
Partial FL sizing seems impossible . You're either are FL sizing or not . I'd think dropping the FL in that term and just say partial sizing would be more accurate .
Example . I have since went to using competition shell holders . These allow me the size my cases the exact same size as I was before but now making HARD contact with the shell holder and die .
So I have to ask in either of the ways I sized cases . Am I FL sizing my cases ?
1) have the die touching the shell holder before sizing but not while ?
2) Have the die and shell holder making HARD contact with cam over using competition shell holders
If I use a standard shell holder and either of my Redding dies ( standard or bushing ) and make hard contact with cam over . The cases are sized down so far for any of my 308 chambers that it's almost unsafe . It would/is unsafe if loaded a second or third time sizing the same way .
My point , FL sizing a case to what many consider the definition is . Would not be what I would ever recommend unless that was the only way to get the case to chamber in your rifle . In general you will be creating to much head clearance in the chamber by doing so .
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4runnerman
New member
I go with Metal on this one. As for me- I fire new brass and just size neck till bolt gets hard to close. Then I set my FL die up. I will bump shoulder .001 till the bolt closes with very little resistance. It is not a precise way to do it but it works very well. As also mentioned, I do not have time for a stuck case when in a Match, but want all the accuracy I can get.
Metal,
My definition of full length resizing is just that - full length of the brass is resized; mouth, neck, shoulder, body, and big part of the head. Not really has much to do with the shell holder. In fact I have to grind off the top of a few shell holders for the brass to go in further. Partial length resizing is anything short of that.
Now I generally ignore the recommendations that come with the die instructions. I resize the brass to fit my gun's chamber. When I close the bolt I'd like to have the slightest hint of resistance. Best to have the resistance just disappeared. For autos and other action types, I'd go 0.004" further.
-TL
My definition of full length resizing is just that - full length of the brass is resized; mouth, neck, shoulder, body, and big part of the head. Not really has much to do with the shell holder. In fact I have to grind off the top of a few shell holders for the brass to go in further. Partial length resizing is anything short of that.
Now I generally ignore the recommendations that come with the die instructions. I resize the brass to fit my gun's chamber. When I close the bolt I'd like to have the slightest hint of resistance. Best to have the resistance just disappeared. For autos and other action types, I'd go 0.004" further.
-TL
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Partial is easy to understand, once you remove the voodoo.
You set up the F/L die intentionally short, usually backed off 1 or 2 full turns.
You mark the neck & shoulder with smoke from a candle or something similar.
Now you run the press cycle & look at the removed smoke smudge. It will be short.
Now you bring the die down 1/2 as much as you think is "perfect" resize again & recheck the smudge.
Repeat the size, check, adjust 1/2 until you get the amount of resizing you're looking for.
Personally I look for a 360 degree circle right at the body/shoulder junction, YMMV.
You set up the F/L die intentionally short, usually backed off 1 or 2 full turns.
You mark the neck & shoulder with smoke from a candle or something similar.
Now you run the press cycle & look at the removed smoke smudge. It will be short.
Now you bring the die down 1/2 as much as you think is "perfect" resize again & recheck the smudge.
Repeat the size, check, adjust 1/2 until you get the amount of resizing you're looking for.
Personally I look for a 360 degree circle right at the body/shoulder junction, YMMV.
Gunplummer
New member
As I said before, I started loading late in life. When I started working on guns, reloads were suspect as far as reliability (And rightly so). As available components became better quality, I started into reloading. I never neck sized and was a pariah among the reloading crowd because of my belief that it was nonsense. My point always was: If you have an uneven expansion ring around the base of your case after firing, you will be forcing most of the neck sized cases back in the next time you fire them. I don't know about new production guns, but this non-concentric condition on brass was real common years ago. It usually is a misalignment between the chamber and bolt, the face of the bolt is not on a 90* angle with the chamber, or the lip of the bolt runs out and cams the case off at an angle. Sometimes you can stand the empty brass on a table and visually see that it is "Leaning" to one side. If you load that neck sized case in 180* out, I can not see anything good coming of it. What goes around, comes back around. I guess F/L resizing is now a good thing again.
For me it's more like 3 firings before I don't like the chamber fit. You can make very accurate ammo with a collet die, though. It's just that you will eventually have to FL size unless you're shooting powder puff loads.
And this is exactly what I was saying earlier about why neck sizing caught on in the first place. It is very easy to explain how to make accurate ammo with a collet die in a few paragraphs. It is not easy to explain how to make accurate ammo that is a tight chamber fit with a FL die in a few paragraphs. I do exactly what you posted Tango. Problem is, most FL die instructions or reloading manuals do not accurately explain how to do it. Or they do explain it but it's confusing to a novice loader.
Full Length VS Neck Resizing.?
I FL Resize all of my Rifle Cases Rem 223, Win 243, Win 270, Win 308, Reason being,? My Son & Grandson, & My Buddy,? Shoot some of the same Calibers mentioned above,?So for different Rifles,Besides just mine,? I find it better just to FL Resize,? So there are not any problems,? In any of mine,Or their Bolt Action Rifles,? It works out Well, So why fix,? What not is broke.?
I FL Resize all of my Rifle Cases Rem 223, Win 243, Win 270, Win 308, Reason being,? My Son & Grandson, & My Buddy,? Shoot some of the same Calibers mentioned above,?So for different Rifles,Besides just mine,? I find it better just to FL Resize,? So there are not any problems,? In any of mine,Or their Bolt Action Rifles,? It works out Well, So why fix,? What not is broke.?