Neck sizing Vs. Full length on certain cases

603Country said:
Tangolima, with standard cases and a standard neck die, you shouldn't have bullets loose in the neck. But I know that it can happen in some instances. I was partial resizing for my 220 Swift for years (and it shot wonderfully), but I got myself a neck sizing die for it, just to see how it would shoot. I had some rather old Norma cases that I had shot a bazillion times and trimmed and reloaded and reshot. That was way back before I ever checked a neck wall thickness. So I neck sized, reprimed, threw a powder charge into the case, and went to seat a bullet. The bullet fell into the case. The neck wall was so thin that the neck die couldn't constrict it enough to hold a bullet. But that doesn't mean that a neck die won't work correctly. Still...I have retired the neck sizing dies because I felt that accuracy wasn't as good as when I partial resized. And my partial resizing, which didn't bump the shoulder, has evolved to partial FL resizing with the intent to bump the shoulder adequately.
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I was using Lee collet die. It has a mandrel to determine the ID of the neck. So the problem wasn't due to thin neck wall. It is Lee's own idea, as written in the instructions, that minimal bullet grid is good for accuracy. In other words, their collet dies are designed to have little neck tension. If more neck tension is desired, they suggest annealing the neck or sanding down the mandrel. It is rather silly.

Neck sizing is not evil. I'm sure it has its place in certain situations. It just doesn't do it for me. I myself quite like the idea of bushing die, or full length die with honed neck, such that no extender ball is needed. Of course neck turning becomes a necessity.

-TL
 
When I just neck sized, I was impressed with the bullet hold. Granted I was using a 312 bullet in a 311 neck, I have some 311's coming next week, ill keep an eye on the hold. This is the first I have heard of this being a complaint though.
 
skizzums said:
When I just neck sized, I was impressed with the bullet hold. Granted I was using a 312 bullet in a 311 neck, I have some 311's coming next week, ill keep an eye on the hold. This is the first I have heard of this being a complaint though.
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You may not have the same problem if you are not using Lee collet die, which the only neck sizing die I have tried.

-TL
 
I use a Redding body die, push the shoulder back and a lee collet die. Runout is typically .001-.002. I use this method for auto loaders and bolts. It works. Well and case life is very good.
 
Disclaimer--I am no sage on reloading.

When first starting to load center fire rifle, I started by using the FL die on new cases, and then just neck sizing. (Caliber was 22-250 only at that time.) After a time, some rounds were so long that the bolt was tough---or even impossible--to close. So after a few threads here in TFL, I finally figured out what "bump the shoulder back" actually refers to, and bought a Hornady Headspace Gauge. Away I went, FL sizing all my brass. By this time a 204 Ruger and 222 Remington was added to the armory, and all the rifles were loaded accordingly. All is well, accuracy is good, bolt closes, and case life seems better. Incidence of split necks dropped dramatically for the 222 Rem.

So, at that time the process was: used cases are tumbled, inside of the case necks are brushed/lubed, case lube is applied to the body of the case, and then it is run through the FL sizing die. Then the case lube is wiped off the outside, the inside of the case neck is swabbed with Q-tip. Then the cases are measured for length, and if needed trimmed, deburred and chamfered. The primer pocket is brushed. Primer is in stalled. Ready to load. Finally.

So after some of that boring and mind numbingly slow process, I wondered if all the brass needs FL sizing every time. It turns out that some does, but some doesn't. When I checked the fired brass before decapping/sizing, using the headspace gauge, 204 Ruger brass does not need to be FL sized. The load currently being used is with 24 gr. NTX bullets, IMR498 at max load, velocity around 4350 fps. For some reason the load must be such that the brass is undergoing absolute zero stretch. I have used some cases I designated specifically for this load 4 times and it shows no discernible stretch. Still within the headspace spec I am using. Saves me quite a bit of time when reloading that caliber. The 222 Remington---no way, has to be FL sized every time. 22-250--that caliber depends---I spend a few minutes and measure each case with the headspace gauge and segregate the cases that can be necksized from the others.

You can call neck sizing the lazy man's way. OK---if it works I'll take it. If not, then FL sizing is ok too.
 
Neck sizing will eventually need something more done to it. Don't think its an either/or process, more of a combination of both.
Personally I use partial full length for most of my stuff.
 
TimSR, Your Arisaka chamber is not out of wack, it is the brass that is out of wack. Like most military chambers, they are on the large side to use the heavy military brass. I used to fire surplus Japanese ammo and Chinese stuff manufactured on the same machinery. It is a lot bigger and heavier than the aftermarket ammo produced. I used to adjust the F/L dies so the brass did not take such a beating at each firing.
 
Today at the range, I rediscovered a case that it is probably better just to neck size: the 303 Brit. A shooting bud asked me why his 303 Brit cases are separating after three firings, and it all came down to full length sizing.

I have owned a number of 303 Lee Enfields, and every chamber is different. I could pick out brass fired in the things by the shoulder shape of the fired cartridge. The British did not standardize on a base to shoulder length, nor apparently, a shoulder shape. Some are round, others angled. Sizing dies will push that shoulder back, and depending on the chamber the case was fired, push it back a good distance.

The rear lugged bolt of the Lee Enfield action makes for a very springy action. It is not as rigid as a Mauser. The springy action stretches cases during firing, so pushing the shoulder back a lot, then firing them in this springy action, will just stretch cases all to heck. As I mentioned to Bud this morning, the British never expected anyone to reload their cases, the Lee Enfield is a military rifle first and foremost, all other considerations were secondary. It is my opinion that it was the best bolt action battle rifle, but it is sure as heck hard on brass.

So, neck sizing, or partial neck sizing is the only way to go with this thing. I have fired lubed cases with cast bullets to set the shoulder without excessive stretch, and without excessive bolt face loads. The British proof tested these actions with lubricated cartridges, lubricating the cartridges so the proof test would be a valid test by fully loading the action. Americans think that proof tests are conducted to blow up the rifle, but that is total foolishness. Standard proof test pressures are 30% over standard ammunition, which is a severe workmanship test, and one not to be duplicated. However, the Lee Enfield is a pretty flexible action, the older ones have been rebarreled a couple of times, and it is best policy not to strain the action with hot loads. Once I have fired formed cases in a stress free manner, I carefully set up my sizing dies so the shoulders are not pushed back, much at all. I suspect I am partial neck sizing.

 
303 British was actually the caliber that I first experimented with neck sizing. It was direct result of internet research. Everybody said it was the only way to hand load that cartridge. I was even foolish enough to believe I would not need a full length die.

That how I uncover the pain in the neck caused by neck sizing. After 4 to 5 firings the bolt became too stiff and close and open. Then I had to buy a full length sizing die.

You don't have to bump anything back when you use full length sizing die. I practically turn the cartridge from headspacing by rim to headspacing by shoulder. Works just fine. The first batch of brass was retired after at least 15 firings.

Never have used that collet die since then. Anybody wants it?

-TL
 
Tango, that is what I am talking about too. Careful tossing the word "Headspace" around, it will start a crap storm on this forum.
 
This is a very interesting thread and I have to comment because a lot of what I have read goes against everything I thought was true in reloading. I'm no expert but have been at it 3 years. Its not my intention to hijack the thread but can some of you guys tell me if this is correct or wrong. I have always only neck sized. I was led to believe only neck sizing increased accuracy because the brass is fire formed to your chamber. By FL re-sizing I would loose the fire forming obviously. If I changed to FL re-sizing what would be the benefits for me from just necking them ? .......and secondly doesn't FL re-sizing encourage stretch of your brass and trimming every firing ? Its always Sako, Norma or Lapua brass. My rifle I use is a Tikka 308 bolt action.

Thanks Gents apologies to the op :cool:
 
These are indeed 2 opposing schools of thoughts. Do a search on this forum you will find elaborations from both sides. They do way better job than I can explaining. I can only tell you my experience.

Neck sizing could be good for accuracy. But I could see no observable difference. Stiff bolt handle after a few firings is a drag. No good for semi autos, lever, pump, straight pull actions is discouraging. Insufficient neck tension because the way Lee collet die does it just does it in for me. There is little or no benefit, but a lot of inconvenience. That's the way I see.

-TL
 
Those of you having problems closing bolts after 2~4 neck size & fire check out "Partial full length re-sizing". You may discover it offers options neither neck only nor full length offers.
 
Another one joins the crowd. There are probably a lot of guys that do this, we just can't come up with a standard name for it.
 
Tangolma I use lee collet dies for several semis without issue. But it you want tighter neck tension lee will sell you a smaller mandrel for $5. You can't beat them for run out and price.
 
1stmar said:
Tangolma I use lee collet dies for several semis without issue. But it you want tighter neck tension lee will sell you a smaller mandrel for $5. You can't beat them for run out and price.
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Perhaps they give me better bullet run-out. But there is hardly any difference in my group, so why?

I agree they are inexpensive. But why buy one if I don't need it? I still need a full length resizing die, do I not?

I know about the $5 mandrel for more neck tension. But again, why?

I tried it in semis for a few times too. But it is not recommended as stated in their instructions. If a turn bolt can become stiff after some firings, it will have problem in a semi, lever, pump, or straight pull action, which has much less mechanical advantage to force the action close. Here it goes again; why?

Well, I'm not saying neck sizing is evil bad. I'm sure it is great for a lot of folks. It just doesn't make sense for me.

-TL
 
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Go back and read post #24. Redding body die to resize the case. If you get satisfactory groups and good case life do whatever works for you. I get better results w the lee die.
 
1stmar- .002 neck tension is all that is needed, why would you want more?.
FLS has been proven to be more accurate in almost every case. Now the 303 Brit that was mentioned here is an exception as maybe a few others would be, but for your standard calibers most shoot, FLS with a .002 shoulder bump and .002 neck tension is the way to go. Been the way to go for many years now.
Bullet run out is IMHO a Expander ball issue. Use a universal decapper and then just size with no expander ball in your die- Your run out has just dissapeared. The die is most times very accurate, it's when you pull the expander ball back out of case neck the the problem comes to play. The expander ball pulls up on the neck causing runout and can also mess with your shoulder bump.
Take 2 or 3 cases run through your die normal, take 2 or 3 more sized brass and pull expander ball out and resize. Lay next to each other on smooth table and roll them. You will see a difference.
 
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