Nazi Germany

How about the two resistance fighters that jumped into Checkoslovakia to kill Heydrich? Early in the war, no heavy guard units in the area, and they still screwed it up. They throw a bomb in an open car, open up with submachine guns, kill the driver and wound Heydrich. Heydrich stands up, hauls out a pistol and runs them off. He may have been a real son of a bitch but at least he had moxie. From what I gathered by reading and talking to vets, most but not all resistance hit low risk units, such as cooks moving early, supply movements, things like that. Poland was another story, they had guts and nothing to lose.
 
I'm waiting for a book from my niece about the Bielski brothers of Belarus, Jews who organized, hid people in the wilderness and fought the Nazis as they could, mostly guerilla fighting I think. I need to read up again on the Warsaw ghetto uprising, where only a handful of Jews found weapons and fought the Nazis. I had a Jewish friend in an office where I use to work. He was scared to death of guns. I brought up why people should be armed, used Holocaust as a specific example. He hemmed and hawed and never came up with much of an answer. Gun control has always been used to oppress someone. Jews, American Indians, slaves and free Blacks. I read sometime back that gun control laws in Sudan are aimed at the Black Christian people of the South. The Arabs of the North are
allowed whatever they wish. Blacks of the South have little or no chance of buying arms or ammunition. They are at the mercy of Arab "gangaweed" militias.
 
For some reason I can't understand, there is a lot of mythology about WWII and the Holocaust among Jews. I knew one elderly American Jewish woman, now gone, who never seemed to understand what happened in Germany and Europe. She insisted that the Gestapo was like the KKK and should have been hauled into court "by the government". I tried to explain that the KKK, while evil, is a private organization, while the Gestapo WAS the government, the equivalent in some ways of the FBI.* She never could grasp the idea of "the government" being responsible for mass killing and just knew that the Nazis were a gang of hoodlums who somehow escaped the notice of German law enforcement!

*The general mission, to prevent internal subversion and stop external sabotage and espionage, is the same. The difference is that the FBI works within the laws of a democratic nation, while the Gestapo worked for a dictatorship, and made its own laws.

Jim
 
could it possibly be that his uncle through in the part "thats why he went straight to Auchwits" because that was his own personal idea?
I will say that someone would have to be extremely good at what they did to kill 20 officers without being discovered
 
Flame and Citron of Holge Danske good?
There were resistance fighters who topped 20. They had almost a decade to accomplish this task. That is only 2 officers a year which is not a tall order. They just had to get lucky and not get caught for the duration of the war.
 
gestapo goverment?

MR KEENAN,as you may well know,hitler extorted his way into the chancellorship,the nazis destroyed the oppisition much like the italian mafia,and created the ora of fear of death,at the hands of the nazis,the regular army,luftwaff ,navy ,police, citizens,all feared for thier own lives and the life of loved ones,each SS officer could kill anyone outside thier ranks at any time,I disagree that most of the german people supported the war,they just couldnt say anything against the furer,much like if you worked for tony soprano and wanted to defect,only fools rush to death oh and general custer,oh and the nazis were an private organization that took over the german government,in very short order.:cool:
 
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nazis were an private organization that took over the german government
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Yeah, but the Gestapo was part of the government...

Have you seen video of the big rallies BEFORE the Nazis were totally in power. They did not seem short of support from the populace. Most people are sheep without a willingness to sacrifice for principles and will live under any government as long as they don't feel personally threatened. Heck, look at how many Jews stuck around long after it was obvious the new German government had it out for them.
 
For those who haven't made a hobby of studying history

A thumbnail sketch;

The Nazis were a political party. Nationalsozialistiche Deutsches Arbiters Partie (National Socialist German Workers Party).
In 1926, the Nazis tried to overthrow the govt. of Bavaria (the Munich beer hall putsch). They failed. Hitler was arrested and spent a couple years in jail (where he wrote Mein Kampf). After his release, Hitler concentrated on gaining power legally. And by that I mean the Nazis did not again try to overthrow the existing government. They relied on the violent "politics" of the Brownshirts, and their propaganda.

In 1928, the Nazi party got just 2.6% of the national vote, gaining just 12 seats in the Reichstag. In 1929, the US stock market crashed, and our banks called in the loans that were propping up the German economy. Their econonmy crashed, and crashed harder than ours did.

In 1930, the Nazis won 107 seats in the Reichstag. By 1932, they won 230 seats, and effective control of the government. Hitler promised the desperate German people "hope and change" and became Chancellor at the end of Jan 1933. The Reichstag fire in Feb 1933 (a terrorist act), blamed on the Communists, was used as justification for passage of the Enabling act, which effectively dissolved democratic government in Germany and made Hitler dictator.

The Gestapo (Geheime Staats Polezei -Secret State Police) were an official arm of the Nazi government.

However, contrary to popular belief, they could not do what ever they wanted to everyone, until 1943. German citizens (those with "correct" genetics in the Nazi view) had legal rights. If the Gestapo picked up Onkel Max because he was drunk on a street corner and shouting "Hitler is a stinker", until 1943 his family could go to a German court, and the court could order his release (seldom) or at least inform the family where, and why he was being held. "Good" German citizens who ran afoul of the "law" got trials, untermenchen (Jews, gypsies, and everyone else the Nazis considered undesirable) did not.

In early 1943, the Nazis passed the Nacht und Nebel decree (Night and Fog), removing the right of the "good" Germans to go to court against the Gestapo, and from there, the reign of terror applied to everyone under Nazi rule. People who complained disappeared, and those who asked about them, did too!

But it all began legally, by fanatics who sold a bill of goods to a people desperate for someone (who wasn't a communist) to lead them out of the mess they were in. Remember that the Nazis controlled the media. There was no free press. Radio and the papers said only what the Nazis wanted them to. They controlled, very tightly, the information the people got. Most Americans have a hard time believing that most Germans didn't know what was going on. I don't. Rumors and whispers in back rooms are not the stuff that kindles large scale resistance. Think about it.
 
I had a long post prepared but the heck with it, you guys just keep arguing your misinfornmation and pop history.

Me, I am perfectly content to know that out there, in reality, there are a whole bunch of people who would bump me off if they get the chance SOLELY because my genes originated in the Middle east 2000 years ago.

Thats cool, I'm a good shot. Hell, I just put two shots out of a .455 Webley 6 inches apart on a 12x12 target at 100 yards.:eek:

I see a jew hater, I say shalom and invite them to crawl out from under their rocks and take me on;) I'm a demon on Craig's List sometimes :)

Now you know why I look askance at guys who worry all the time about "threats". Y'all dont know what threats are.

I think I'll carry my .38 webley with the israeli markings

WildandthisbunchinwashingtonisbadtooAlaska TM
 
Rumors and whispers in back rooms are not the stuff that kindles large scale resistance. Think about it.
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This is a good point I never thought about before. To put what you said in context I thought about blue helmets. If I believed every rumor about the government I heard I would have to believe an invasion of blue helmeted UN troops was just around the corner, among other things. Actually, this line of thought, has me, for the first time in my life actually thinking about a blue helmet invasion. Nice going :).

I don't buy your argument totally, but joe shmoe who shines shoes for a living and hears wild stories all day probably heard the rumor but honestly didn't believe it. I mean the oficer from the Reichstag just told him Hitler is nailing the bakers wife and that is why her husband was sent to the front and no one can buy bread anymore.
His great uncle, who works at the railyard, and daily sees Jews pass through on their way to camps and talked to the people guarding those trains casually probably KNEW and just didn't worry about it.

It is amazing what becomes acceptable in a climate of hate. When your neighbors will stand alongside you and/or help you do something terrible and everyone knows the police will not intervene. The US south and many other examples that are of shorter term exist within the US.
 
Oh boy, a whole lot of misinformation, so I'll do just a few points. The Gestapo was originally the Prussian state (Staat) secret police. It was absorbed by the national government under Hitler and its powers expanded. It was concerned with state security, not arresting Onkel Max for having too many beers; that was the job of the ordinary cops, the Schutzpolizei. The Schutzstaffel (SS) was a Nazi party organization, and not part of the German government. They were originally the protection service for Hitler and other Nazi party officials. After Hitler became chancellor, the SS was expanded to include the para-military Waffen-SS. Membership was not all black uniforms and boots - to belong to the SS was considered an honor and many ordinary people joined for a number of reasons, including the fact that SS members got a larger gasoline ration than non-members. To some, it was the "in thing", like belonging to an exclusive club or going to a rock concert.

Hitler attained power in a perfectly legal and constitutional manner, under a parliamentary system. His dictatorial powers were granted by the Reichstag under a constitutional provision allowing for emergency powers. (Note that the US has a law allowing a president just such powers in a national emergency.)

As to the support of the German people, I will say again that there was almost no resistance to the Nazis even before Hitler gained absolute control; only toward the end was support gained through fear. After the Rheinland incident, Hitler called for a plebicite and got a resounding victory (I think it was 98.5%) in a free election with a large turnout. And don't forget that all those tens of thousands of people cheering, crying, and screaming "Sieg Heil" were NOT bussed in or forced to attend the rallies (unlike the practice in the USSR or modern China); they were there because they wanted to be there to cheer their hero.

I have spoken to a number of Germans, including some who hated Americans. Many tried the "Hitlerskrieg" dodge, but most were honest about support for Hitler and seemed literally not to know what happened or why they went along. Many said that Hitler changed after he got into office, and that might even be true, though I do not believe it. The best explanation is that they were caught up in the moment, like football fans after a Super Bowl win by an underdog team, and saw the Nazis as being the dawn in a Germany that had become very dark indeed.

Most Americans believe that such a thing could not happen here, and maybe it couldn't. We are probably a more cynical and a more diverse society, but we must continually be alert for politicians of the right or the left who have those kinds of ideas. So far, our presidents have been dedicated to democracy and the constitution (yes, even Obama and Bush, no matter what partisans of the right and left would try to make us believe). I hope we never make the mistake of electing a Hitler.

Jim
 
Its the constant underlying concern...

And the reason we must always be vigiliant, and why we oppose every encroachment of our rights.

I hope we never make the mistake of electing a Hitler.
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Because some people have hidden agendas. Because people change. Because even though they may say one thing, they can do another. And once things reach a tipping point, votes mno longer matter. Even laws fail to have effect beyond what those in power are willing to accept.

Like no other nation in history, we are better equipped to resist it, but, and make no mistake, it CAN happen here.

And that's why there is so much wild rhetoric, on all sides of the political aisles. History has shown, time and again, that when the people become desperate enough (and the tipping point varies with the culture), they will support whom ever looks to be best able to make good on the promise of better times.
 
Late to the feast, but I'm absolutely convinced that home-made guns were manufactured by Jews, though in the Warsaw and Krakow ghetto - not in Germany.

I'd be surprised if any of those still existed after the fighting. Any German soldier picking one up would probably chuckle before crushing it with his rifle butt. Any Jew using one would probably throw it away after he killed a German and got his hands on a real firearm.

There were a lot of very stubborn Polish Jews who wouldn't go along with the various "get in the oven" regulations.
 
Interesting google hits:

Object on left is a home-made grenade from the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

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Two more homemade grenades from the Warsaw ghetto uprising:
Filipinka (right) and Sidolówka on exhibition in the Museum of the Warsaw Rising

Filipinka_sidol%C3%B3wka.jpg


Stubborn Jews in Warsaw refusing to take the train to the idyllic village of Auschwitz:

220px-Warsaw_Uprising_boyscouts.jpg



http://www.ptla.us/Period1/WarsawGhetto.html
 
Hi all, guess I'm new and it's odd to have my first post go in this thread, but I just can't help myself.

Yes the lipstick case story is true, they were purchased as lipstick cases from France and also copper sheet was purchased to manufacture the cases in Israel.

About 2 million 9mm cartridges were made in "the Ayalon institute" the headstamp was EA (for Eretz Israel "land of Israel" and A for Ayalon).

While I'm not exactly sure what machines they had there my understanding is that they had everything necessary to turn copper sheet into cartridges and turn the cases into cartridges.

The idea I believe actually came from Australia, which did the reverse. A company that had made lipstick cases before WWII had switched to the manufacture of ammo.

http://150.theage.com.au/view_bestofarticle.asp?straction=update&inttype=1&intid=746

I'm not sure where the idea came from that lipstick cases would be too thin, my grandmother had a few from the 40's and they were pretty solid...it wasn't the same disposable culture as it is today, the cases were often engraved and given as gifts, the lipstick itself was replaceable. It was normally sold in just wax paper.

I would think in the time frame most of this went on 1944-1948 lipstick cases were quite probably made the exact thickness of some sort of ammo, since there were probably many trainloads of brass sheet scattered across Europe that was on its way to make ammo that had lost all demand right after the war.

I would imagine that anyone wanting to buy exports from Europe of brass sheeting, or worked brass would find many people very happy to sell. I would also imagine that there were still a large number of displaced persons and others who spent their time picking up empty brass to get a bit of eating money.

By 1948 things were back in boom in the US, but Europe was not in such good shape

My understanding is that some of the cases were given as gifts to the British soldiers to help allay doubts

As to the original topic, while it does sound like it has a number of possible holes, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. I met a man who survived in the camps by repairing soldiers watches with minimal tools (no actual tools from his trade), he had made an entire pocketwatch out of various bits of scrap and hid it in the camp hoping he might get some chance to use it as a bribe or to trade after the war if he survived. I met him back in the 1980's and he still carried the watch. Apparently he filed the gears with flecks of stone. He said it saved his life by giving him something else to focus on during those years.

Never underestimate what people are capable of doing (or achieving) when their back is really to the wall.
 
As to the support of the German people, I will say again that there was almost no resistance to the Nazis even before Hitler gained absolute control; only toward the end was support gained through fear. After the Rheinland incident, Hitler called for a plebicite and got a resounding victory (I think it was 98.5%) in a free election with a large turnout. And don't forget that all those tens of thousands of people cheering, crying, and screaming "Sieg Heil" were NOT bussed in or forced to attend the rallies (unlike the practice in the USSR or modern China); they were there because they wanted to be there to cheer their hero.
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This seems correct. Let's recall that we are not discussing a culture in which, unlike this board's population, people thought about government and authority in terms of its limits.

Germans had emerged from national humiliation and poverty that made our Great Depression seem mild. They had also recently been deprived of their kaiser, and been handed a democracy that fit like a cheap suit. To a politically unsophistocated population a fellow of Hilter's carisma and political acumen must have seemed a sort of national saviour.

I've read a vignette about prussian attitudes. A prisoner at the turn of the prior century is drilled in army maneuvers by the officer running the prison. He gets out with an exhaustive knowledge of how an officer of that time and place conducts himself. He procures a uniform, finds a contingent of soldiers, walks them into a bank, and orders the bank personnel to assist the soldiers in turning the money over to him.

All comply because...he was a prussian officer and his actions were, therefore, correct. The idea that "I was following orders" would not be a complete legal defense was genuinely baffling to people of this background.

Sadly this applied to jews as well. Lots of german jews (who were often more assimilated than the jews of other places) hopped onto trains because they received a notice in the mail to do so. They weren't culturally set up to ask "Why would I comply with this order from the State?"

The best explanation is that they were caught up in the moment,...
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I've heard this before, but don't like it. It's a sort of political insanity defense. They were caught up in the moment for what, seven, eight years? That's not a moment.

"My country went to war and I answered" seems to more closely match what happened. I've prussian family killed and impoverished by the NSists, but the fact of enormous tragedy doesn't make what unfolded especially mysterious, imo.
 
As to the support of the German people, I will say again that there was almost no resistance to the Nazis even before Hitler gained absolute control; only toward the end was support gained through fear. After the Rheinland incident, Hitler called for a plebicite and got a resounding victory (I think it was 98.5%) in a free election with a large turnout.
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I think you need to go back and read a few history books. There was actually a fair amount of resistance to the Nazis before Hitler gained control of Germany, and Hitler and the Nazis NEVER achieved a 98.5% vote in any election.
 
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