Navy SEALS acquiring Glock 19s?
- Thread starter simonrichter
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Rleadslinger
Inactive
Seals are currently rocking P226's. I could totally see the purchase of the Glock 19's. Are we REALLY comparing the Glock 19 to the M9? Alright, The M9 had a GREAT run in Army SF. (and other SOF units.) The constant locking block cracks and constant internal parts breaking seriously cripple the pistol. I get it, tons of Berreta fans here. Not trying to step on anyones toes but the SOF community is looking for another more RELIABLE sidearm. They looked to Glock. Aside from a couple of normal issues that come with lots of use. The Glock is a great gun for these mission sets. If a Special Forces (Green Beret) dude is claiming he prefers the M9 its because its all he knows. Dont get me wrong, SOF dudes are what youd expect. Guy shoots the same gun for 15 years, guess what? Yeah he isnt going to change his gun.
I dont know how to quote other posts just yet. MARSOC run the M45a1's. Super awesome gun. Unfortunately i believe the SEAL's weapons choices are picked by CRANE. Like most of the SOF's we dont get the final say in what we are issued. If this is the case, CRANE did right by choosing Glock.
I dont know how to quote other posts just yet. MARSOC run the M45a1's. Super awesome gun. Unfortunately i believe the SEAL's weapons choices are picked by CRANE. Like most of the SOF's we dont get the final say in what we are issued. If this is the case, CRANE did right by choosing Glock.
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I think the primary driving force between Glock's acceptance with LE had to do with very good marketing on behalf of Glock and a very aggressive pricing structure that was in part due to the lower costs to make a Glock pistol. We're seeing S&W using a similarly aggressive pricing structure these days and winning itself a significant portion of the LE market.
Saying "widespread" use in the spec ops community is a bit of a misnomer. The spec ops community is relatively small compared to the regular military and we're talking certain units within that community that have gone with Glock for certain tasks. As for its use with those units, I think that has to do with the other points you brought up. The more compact size, lighter weight, and all of this for essentially the same capacity. A lot of the units we're describing often find themselves detached for extended periods of time and CIA operators want something that can be concealed easily. Size and weight are very important to them. Saying that they've "very obviously" proven it to be superior is a bit of hyperbole, and more so superior in what category? Again my comments were about your statement:
And again, we find ourselves absent real recorded evidence in terms of durability and environmental forgiveness. It's mostly anecdotal evidence from people claiming to be part of that community (in some cases their records have become public). We also have to take into account that those in that community maintain their firearms with far more care than the pistols in service with the standard military and all firearms need maintenance to continue to function properly. Taking all this into account, I don't see that as being enough to make the statement above.
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Walt Sherrill
New member
TunnelRat said:
If you read the comments from the two active duty SEALs who are TOPIC EXPERTs on the M4Carbine.net forum, linked earlier in this discussion, you find that U.S. Special Ops troops (other than SEALs) have been using Glocks for some time. One of the SEALs noted that he had often carried a P228 when concealed carry was needed (doing SEAL work), and there were only two problems mentioned with the SIG, and no real FUNCTIONAL issues:
1) bigger than they needed to be, and much heavier than desired when you're already carrying a LOT of extra gear.
2) more susceptible to salt water damage because of the metal frame.
He noted that the second-strike capability of the SIGs was a plus -- especially if you had a misfire or an apparent dud round while climbing a ladder (boarding a ship, etc.) Trying to rack the slide using the sights didn't always work in that type of situation, and if pulling the trigger a second time did worked, you were ahead of the game.
He also made the point that handguns were almost NEVER the primary weapon -- they were often a backup, or last resort weapon. He seemed to feel that the Glock 19 was an almost perfect mix of size, weight, capacity and functionality. The choice being made by the NAVY has already taken place in other US DOD units.
The H&K 45s, which he said were greatly over-engineered and very robust, and remained the weapon of choice for situations where a silencer or suppressor was called for. That design could cope with the extra weight and stresses of the long attached device.
sigarms228
New member
That's what I got from the thread also. Nothing to do with functional problems or reliability of P226 and P239
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?177390-NSW-goes-Glock/page4 -- from post 34 by SME "Rana"
dogtown tom
New member
For the same reason FN builds firearms for the US military here in the USA.
Glock wouldn't be any different.
Seriously?
You could have said the same thing about Beretta in the early '90's or FN in the late '90's.
Gearing up to produce a half million handguns wouldn't be all that difficult for Glock.
Without the M9 contract Beretta wouldn't be a factor in the US handgun market.
And who the heck is Gustive Glock?
If you mean Gaston Glock.......yeah, he's so despised by the rest of the EU that the Brits adopted the Glock 17 just to make him look bad.LOL LOL..........wrong.
There is no blanket requirement to have a manual safety on "each and every handgun"...........the US military has been using off the shelf Glocks for over a decade. (and not a one of them has a THUMB safety
)Your nightmare is now reality.
And of course no other firearm manufacturer engages in those practices?
Beretta is at the top of that list.
Glock has the lion's share of the LE market because they practically give their guns to LE agencies. Yes, it's hard to believe but budgets have an effect on purchasing decisions. Glock's guns are reliable but so are SIG's and S&W's and HK's and others, but, all things being equal or close to it, the least expensive package of guns, accessories, and support will often get the nod and Glock has undersold everyone else for decades.
Using Glock's record of reliability in LE circles as proof of it's ruggedness is kind of misleading, considering most LE guns see very little use over the 6-10 years that they are kept in service by an agency. I've seen Glocks fail in training and qualifying at least as often as any other brand.
Nothing wrong with Glocks, I'm just pointing out that they aren't some magical weapon that fills every need and never fails or breaks.
This is an excellent point. Special operations units make up only a few percent of the military as a whole and individual units can be very small, so outfitting them with different weapons than standard issue isn't a huge task. For example, my son is a USAF SOF TACP, he is issued a G19 instead of an M9, but there are less than 100 SOF TACPs in the Air Force. Also, while many different weapons are available, they are not necessarily outfitting every member with every gun - the MARSOC Glock announcement was a good example, MARSOC was adding Glocks to their inventory and making them available for use, not making them the standard issue sidearm. Again, using my son to emphasize the point, his rifle of choice is a SCAR 17 rather than an M4. He's still issued an M4, the SCAR 17 doesn't replace it, it is issued to him in addition to, not instead of.
I think that the SIG 226 has certainly proven itself over the years that the SEALs have been using them, to a far greater degree than Glocks have in the American military or even LE use. However, the way that SOF weapons are maintained must be taken into consideration. Not only do they see better care from the operators carrying them, the weapons support that SOF units have is much more comprehensive. Their weapons see a lot of range use, these guys are shooting as a regular part of their training, much more often than regular troops, and their guns are maintained accordingly, inspected on a regular basis, worn parts, springs, etc are replaced as needed or before they're needed, not when they fail.
I'm kind of surprised at the amount of chatter the article linked in the original post is getting, considering how vague it is. The author doesn't cite a single source for his information and even the title 'Navy SEALs MIGHT Have Selected A New Pistol' is speculative. From what I've seen a lot of the gun forums are taking one ambiguous article and running away with it. I'm guessing that the reality of the situation is much less exciting that all of the posts make it out to be.
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Just wait until reports start coming out with the problems with the Glocks. And, that will happen just like it does with any product. They some of the mystique will go away. There is a big difference between a combat weapon and what it goes through than a police issue weapon or carry weapon for a civilian.
Let's see what would happen if they mass distribute glocks to all the troops and things start to happen. When they are really pushed to the paces would be interesting.
Glocks are good firearms, but there is not enough data to know how they would do as a mass distributed weapon. Cops don't use guns the same as the military and they switch more. Not saying that is a bad thing, but Glocks are not perfect.
The special ops units have a lot of different weapons at their disposal and pick based on mission set and what they are comfortable with.
Let's see what would happen if they mass distribute glocks to all the troops and things start to happen. When they are really pushed to the paces would be interesting.
Glocks are good firearms, but there is not enough data to know how they would do as a mass distributed weapon. Cops don't use guns the same as the military and they switch more. Not saying that is a bad thing, but Glocks are not perfect.
The special ops units have a lot of different weapons at their disposal and pick based on mission set and what they are comfortable with.
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Didn't/Doesn't the US use Harrier jets that were built by Boeing? I wonder if that was to satisfy the requirement of using a US based company. Also, I bet the US models aeronautics and weapons systems are very different from their UK counterparts. It makes me wonder if it is more of a national security issue than a commerce one. Just a thought.
The new factory Barretta is building is very close to me and they've reported that they are hiring perhaps a little more than 300 people. It doesn't sound like their plant will be all that big. I don't imagine it would be hard for Glock to be able to ramp up a similar sized plant. Still, it might make a lot more sense for Glock to license other gun manufactures plants to make their weapons if they win the bid.
All of that said, I wouldn't be surprised if Berretta retained the contract to supply the bulk of the US and it's allies with sidearms - the SFs can probably carry what they want. I've been told that the SEAL could as recently as 5 years ago. I don't know about now.
Still, it's not likely to be a M9 variant so I'm kind of interested to see what Barretta comes up with.
I can't deny that it's in my region's and states best interest for Barretta to retain the contract so it would be cool if they did BUT, more than anything, I hope our military are supplied with the best and most reliable firearms available and if that means they come from a foreign company, so be it. That, to me, is more important than ANY brand name. I would never wish our men and women in uniform to be under-gunned for the sake of commerce.
It's bound to happen but it may not be a game changer. I don't know as much as most on here about military arms and their history but the AR platform has been in service for 50+ years. With the AK47 and 1911 as a notable exceptions I don't know that there have been many small arms that have been in constant service for that long.
I say this because there were wide spread reports of problems with the rifles when they were first deployed. Many of these issues are cited today though most have been resolved with cleaning, stick instead of ball powder, chromed receivers, forward assists and such.
Today, it seems that even civilians are stepping and clawing to grab every AR variant they can even after the widespread reports of problems when they were first issued (without cleaning kits) to our troops.
Perhaps the Glocks, if chosen will fair similarly. We don't know what we don't know and, as is the case with all machines, it's possible design flaws may become evident over time. If so, I expect Glock will make improvements that will trickle down to their civilian market and perhaps the sidearm industry as a whole.
Just my 2 cents.
Walt Sherrill
New member
None of the SIGs being used by the military (Army, Airforce, Coast Guard, Navy, including the SEALs) have safeties. I bet somebody got fired when the Pentagon found out!!
He's not and it's "Gaston," NOT Gustive.
Re: "American made?" Don't make me laugh. If any of you have an "American made" TV in your home, please let me know. (Ditto for an "American made" wristwatch, computer, stereo, Xbox, DVD player, radio, cell phone, well, you get the idea.)
American made and designed items are just not as well engineered and refined as many foreign designs. This is not the fault of the average American, but partially of the higher labor costs and partly of the bean counters who do not want to invest in research and development.
The U.S. still retains some superiority in the aviation industry, but is rapidly losing ground to Airbus.
Bottom line here is that our military should be armed with the best weapon available, and it makes not one whit of difference who designed it or who made it.
There's really no secret formula. The Glock 19 has a great weight to capacity ratio. Durable. Generally doesn't rust. And is easy to work on.
Add in that's its reasonably priced and its a win.
A very good friend of mine is a US Army Green Beret. On his first two deployments, they carried Beretta's. On his third, a pallet of Glock 19's showed up and, they all swapped out.
The handgun is very low on the list. The most powerful weapon he carries is a radio. Calling in an air strike works.
He is a little unusual as he is kind of a gun guy. Firearms instructor at the dept etc.
For most of the spec ops guys, it's a tool. You hand them the tool. They get good with it and, as long as it works like its supposed to, they're good.
We, on the outside, read alot more into it and, over think it.
Add in that's its reasonably priced and its a win.
A very good friend of mine is a US Army Green Beret. On his first two deployments, they carried Beretta's. On his third, a pallet of Glock 19's showed up and, they all swapped out.
The handgun is very low on the list. The most powerful weapon he carries is a radio. Calling in an air strike works.
He is a little unusual as he is kind of a gun guy. Firearms instructor at the dept etc.
For most of the spec ops guys, it's a tool. You hand them the tool. They get good with it and, as long as it works like its supposed to, they're good.
We, on the outside, read alot more into it and, over think it.
I have the honor of knowing a member of the United States Army who is a Command Sargent Major. He has eight service stripes on his left arm ( twenty four years of service ) He served in Somalia, Desert storm, and Iraqi freedom,and has served around six or seven tours in the middle east, I can't remember exactly at this time.
I would love to post a pic of him in his dress blues, but that wouldn't be appropriate.
He has more campaign ribbons than most Generals, and the medals around his neck look like a Mr. T starter kit. One of them is the Bronze Star With Valor.
He is a man that loves his Country, and is not afraid to fight for it. To him PTSD are just letters, he says he has never lost a mins. sleep over fighting and killing the enemy for his country, which he has shown by going back time. and time again. I could go on and tell stories of his exploits there, but it would take to long.
Every Friday at lunch we would go to the local LGS and he would hand the owner $100.00 I asked him about it and he would just smile.
After about two months the owner went in the back and came out with a dolly full of cases of ammo for his AR 15's and Beretta 92fs's.
He has six different personal AR 15's and six different Beretta M9's
I have to say, if the Beretta's good enough for him....then it's damn sure good enough for me.
And I do love my 92fs, and also my five 1911's
I do carry a plastic Ruger LCP in my back pocket though.
If that make you plastic guys feel any better
I would love to post a pic of him in his dress blues, but that wouldn't be appropriate.
He has more campaign ribbons than most Generals, and the medals around his neck look like a Mr. T starter kit. One of them is the Bronze Star With Valor.
He is a man that loves his Country, and is not afraid to fight for it. To him PTSD are just letters, he says he has never lost a mins. sleep over fighting and killing the enemy for his country, which he has shown by going back time. and time again. I could go on and tell stories of his exploits there, but it would take to long.
Every Friday at lunch we would go to the local LGS and he would hand the owner $100.00 I asked him about it and he would just smile.
After about two months the owner went in the back and came out with a dolly full of cases of ammo for his AR 15's and Beretta 92fs's.
He has six different personal AR 15's and six different Beretta M9's
I have to say, if the Beretta's good enough for him....then it's damn sure good enough for me.
And I do love my 92fs, and also my five 1911's
I do carry a plastic Ruger LCP in my back pocket though.
If that make you plastic guys feel any better
runningbear
New member
There are many really good striker fired handguns today,i have a bunch of them one is a Glock23, my first striker fired handgun been caring along with other of my handguns for over many years.
But i feel maybe even if they pick the Glock19 and it's got everything a tough good shooting handgun should have,but i am still betting some US Navy Seals will still want and still carry a hammer fired handgun the P226 or P220 would be my guess.
But i feel maybe even if they pick the Glock19 and it's got everything a tough good shooting handgun should have,but i am still betting some US Navy Seals will still want and still carry a hammer fired handgun the P226 or P220 would be my guess.