shappy0869
New member
I came across this thread while doing a search and I wanted to bring it back from the dead because I think a lot of people who were not on here 5 years ago could benefit from reading it. Good stuff here.
My thoughts on the Combat Shotgun
- Thread starter tire iron
- Start date
Good stuff indeed. Talk about a blast from the past...
Shotguns have had a role in combat since they were frontstuffers- Confederate cavalry had a yen for multiple pairs of cap and ball sixshooters and sawed-off double barrel shotguns loaded with buckshot, for example. And most anyone who has read some military histoy is familiar with the role of the Winchester 1897 Trench Gun in WWI and the Philippines. If you need details on the long history of fighting scatterguns, the book has long been written- it's Thomas F. Swearengen's The World's Fighting Shotguns.
I agree with the majority of posters here, many of whom are more experienced than I. Shotguns have limited utility as a purely combat weapon. But for household defense in the nonmilitary world, or for breaching, guarding fixed sites or prisoners in military operations, they sure do shine.
lpl/nc
Shotguns have had a role in combat since they were frontstuffers- Confederate cavalry had a yen for multiple pairs of cap and ball sixshooters and sawed-off double barrel shotguns loaded with buckshot, for example. And most anyone who has read some military histoy is familiar with the role of the Winchester 1897 Trench Gun in WWI and the Philippines. If you need details on the long history of fighting scatterguns, the book has long been written- it's Thomas F. Swearengen's The World's Fighting Shotguns.
I agree with the majority of posters here, many of whom are more experienced than I. Shotguns have limited utility as a purely combat weapon. But for household defense in the nonmilitary world, or for breaching, guarding fixed sites or prisoners in military operations, they sure do shine.
lpl/nc
Death from Afar
New member
I enjoyed this thread and there are some interesting thoughts about the Shotgun.
GUnsite notes that the shot gun has:
-devestating terminal ballistics
-versitile ammo types
Inexpensive
socially acceptable
The cons are
-extensive muzzle blast
Stiff recoil
limited range
limited ammo capacity
slow to reload
Interestingly, no comment is made on "easier to hit with". And I most certainly dont think a shotgun is an easier weapon to hit with than a carbine. I very strongly belive that at any range aside from spitting distance a shotgun must be aimed as a rifle is. Anything else is a recipe for disaster. Dave raised the point how hard it is to hit a moving target with a carbine, I agree, but a shotgun at close range is just as hard, and once the buckhot pattern opens, then you can get such gaps in your pattern a bad guy can walk through it.
I do not accept that the limited ammo capacity of a shotgun is real handicap with a good operator with a proper ammo carriage system. I belive that as you can "shoot one, load one" it is a very rare situation in deed that a shotgun will go dry in a fight, and with proper training it shouldnt.
Once a person is properly trained, there is no better weapon system on earth at close range than a shotgun. BUt the person must be trained. As gunsite says, it is a thinking mans weapon.
GUnsite notes that the shot gun has:
-devestating terminal ballistics
-versitile ammo types
Inexpensive
socially acceptable
The cons are
-extensive muzzle blast
Stiff recoil
limited range
limited ammo capacity
slow to reload
Interestingly, no comment is made on "easier to hit with". And I most certainly dont think a shotgun is an easier weapon to hit with than a carbine. I very strongly belive that at any range aside from spitting distance a shotgun must be aimed as a rifle is. Anything else is a recipe for disaster. Dave raised the point how hard it is to hit a moving target with a carbine, I agree, but a shotgun at close range is just as hard, and once the buckhot pattern opens, then you can get such gaps in your pattern a bad guy can walk through it.
I do not accept that the limited ammo capacity of a shotgun is real handicap with a good operator with a proper ammo carriage system. I belive that as you can "shoot one, load one" it is a very rare situation in deed that a shotgun will go dry in a fight, and with proper training it shouldnt.
Once a person is properly trained, there is no better weapon system on earth at close range than a shotgun. BUt the person must be trained. As gunsite says, it is a thinking mans weapon.
Daves-got-guns
New member
Ok. This seems to be the most informed group of folks i have scene on this forum, and if i can pick up anything from you guys i will most definitely try. But i do think punks like these that bash rocks over one another or innocent people for that matter and THEN threaten people not to testify and have done god knows what else in their criminal career, well quite frankly i think they forfeit the opportunity we like to call life, and should spend the rest of their time in jail or better yet on death row not wasting our tax payers money which has been stretched out time and time again on these people, when i don't see reform in sight. I do like all of the arguements on here, and since i'm not nearly as smart or qualified as anybody here, i will keep my mouth shut about hd shotguns or anything of that nature. Thanx again guys for the information and stories but while being a civilian, and not knowing many cops i still do hope that all of you make it home safe every night.
Very interesting discussion,
I have to agree with the sentiment that a shotgun is the best weapon at short range (sub 25 yards) for the shotgunner, espically those with limited experence with carbines. There are allot of people who are intimently familar with their shotguns through hunting, trapshooting, sporting clays, etc. A shotgun is clearly superior untill they learn how to run a carbine well.
I have to agree with the sentiment that a shotgun is the best weapon at short range (sub 25 yards) for the shotgunner, espically those with limited experence with carbines. There are allot of people who are intimently familar with their shotguns through hunting, trapshooting, sporting clays, etc. A shotgun is clearly superior untill they learn how to run a carbine well.
This is an awesome thread!
I have a "two cents worth" to toss into the fray if no one objects.
I did 22 years in the mean streets as a municipal copper.
10 years worth as a detective and 3 of that as Chief of Criminal Investigations.
I retired, (disabled) as Lt. of SWAT, firearms instructor, wrote deadly force policy, yadda, yadda, yawn.
I guess that was a bit of an introduction and a way of laying a bit of background.
As a cop I saw plenty of s.g. wounds. Trust me when I explain that terminal balistics of even birdshot at close range is nasty. And usually fatal.
I got into a discussion of the s.g. and it's role in police work with Massad Ayoob several years ago.
It seems the s.g. got it's start as a law enforcement tool a long time ago in the days of front loaders and highway robbers.
In fact the blunderbuss, the trumpet barreled front loader was the prefered gun for discouraging robbers on the stage routes in Europian countries.
The funnel tube didn't scatter any more than any non choked s.g but it was very easy to pour powder and shot down that thing while making a hasty run from bad guys.
Faster reloading you see, even in those days.
The double barrel s.g. was the fastest repeater of any kind until Col. Colt came along.
Add to the fact that the double gave two very fast shots it was also extremely lethal at close range.
So we have a repeater that is also very powerful up close.
Combat in law enforcement has aways been a close range propostion.
As law enforcement became more organized and a little more sophisticated the s.g. changed little.
There were leaps and bounds of development in handguns but s.gs. remained pretty much the same.
The s.g. in police work became traditional in this country, accepted both by cops and the public.
When the Win 97 came along it proved to be a reliable repeater that held more than two shots and remained every bit as lethal as a double.
Hence the pump s.g. became a traditional police weapon accepted by the rank and file copper and the public.
There are many reason why s.gs. are still the 'go to' weapon for law enforcement.
One is tradition.
Another is the fact that pump s.gs. like the 870 and Mossy 500, don't break the budget and they remain servicable for decades of use and abuse.
Buckshot as the ammo of choice is also a throw back to days gone by.
It was available, it was, and remains devestating at close range and most important of all....to the managers of police departments, buckshot won't drill through two houses and kill grandma in her living room.
Try to get a Police Chief to trade in his departments 870 pumps for a Styre AUG and watch him sweat at the thought of liability suits.
Frankly I think buckshot loads flat stink.
Using an 870 'riot gun' with the then standard issue 9 pellet of soft lead 00 buck we demonstrated that you could miss a man sized target at 25 yards.
It was not unusual for any hits at that range to be clearly non serious hits in the extremeties.
It was also common to get a few hits in the torso but frankly at that distance with that load it was a crap shoot.
At 25 feet, against a bad guy not wearing armor the s.g. is phenominal.
IF YOU HIT THE PERP!
At very close ranges the shotgun still must be aimed to be effective.
They don't scatter that much.
The police riot gun is not a very good combat weapon.
I don't hink it's worth a hoot as a home defense weapon for the average citizen either.
It is very hard to train an inexperienced person interested in self defense to shoot the hard kicking s.g. with it's attendant ear splitting muzzle blast that will flat temporarily blind you in low or no light.
Frankly the full powered buck/slug loads scare hell out of rookie shooters.
I would rather see the home defender with a carbine of effective caliber than a s.g. or pistol.
For those that can handle the recoil and blast as you and I can the s.g. makes a pretty good close range weapon with devestating lethality.
But as a combat weapon in todays age, it sucks.
There are much better tools available for the task.
If anyone would like to hear a few real stories of shotgun shootings let me know and I'll dug up a couple from the archives.
I have a "two cents worth" to toss into the fray if no one objects.
I did 22 years in the mean streets as a municipal copper.
10 years worth as a detective and 3 of that as Chief of Criminal Investigations.
I retired, (disabled) as Lt. of SWAT, firearms instructor, wrote deadly force policy, yadda, yadda, yawn.
I guess that was a bit of an introduction and a way of laying a bit of background.
As a cop I saw plenty of s.g. wounds. Trust me when I explain that terminal balistics of even birdshot at close range is nasty. And usually fatal.
I got into a discussion of the s.g. and it's role in police work with Massad Ayoob several years ago.
It seems the s.g. got it's start as a law enforcement tool a long time ago in the days of front loaders and highway robbers.
In fact the blunderbuss, the trumpet barreled front loader was the prefered gun for discouraging robbers on the stage routes in Europian countries.
The funnel tube didn't scatter any more than any non choked s.g but it was very easy to pour powder and shot down that thing while making a hasty run from bad guys.
Faster reloading you see, even in those days.
The double barrel s.g. was the fastest repeater of any kind until Col. Colt came along.
Add to the fact that the double gave two very fast shots it was also extremely lethal at close range.
So we have a repeater that is also very powerful up close.
Combat in law enforcement has aways been a close range propostion.
As law enforcement became more organized and a little more sophisticated the s.g. changed little.
There were leaps and bounds of development in handguns but s.gs. remained pretty much the same.
The s.g. in police work became traditional in this country, accepted both by cops and the public.
When the Win 97 came along it proved to be a reliable repeater that held more than two shots and remained every bit as lethal as a double.
Hence the pump s.g. became a traditional police weapon accepted by the rank and file copper and the public.
There are many reason why s.gs. are still the 'go to' weapon for law enforcement.
One is tradition.
Another is the fact that pump s.gs. like the 870 and Mossy 500, don't break the budget and they remain servicable for decades of use and abuse.
Buckshot as the ammo of choice is also a throw back to days gone by.
It was available, it was, and remains devestating at close range and most important of all....to the managers of police departments, buckshot won't drill through two houses and kill grandma in her living room.
Try to get a Police Chief to trade in his departments 870 pumps for a Styre AUG and watch him sweat at the thought of liability suits.
Frankly I think buckshot loads flat stink.
Using an 870 'riot gun' with the then standard issue 9 pellet of soft lead 00 buck we demonstrated that you could miss a man sized target at 25 yards.
It was not unusual for any hits at that range to be clearly non serious hits in the extremeties.
It was also common to get a few hits in the torso but frankly at that distance with that load it was a crap shoot.
At 25 feet, against a bad guy not wearing armor the s.g. is phenominal.
IF YOU HIT THE PERP!
At very close ranges the shotgun still must be aimed to be effective.
They don't scatter that much.
The police riot gun is not a very good combat weapon.
I don't hink it's worth a hoot as a home defense weapon for the average citizen either.
It is very hard to train an inexperienced person interested in self defense to shoot the hard kicking s.g. with it's attendant ear splitting muzzle blast that will flat temporarily blind you in low or no light.
Frankly the full powered buck/slug loads scare hell out of rookie shooters.
I would rather see the home defender with a carbine of effective caliber than a s.g. or pistol.
For those that can handle the recoil and blast as you and I can the s.g. makes a pretty good close range weapon with devestating lethality.
But as a combat weapon in todays age, it sucks.
There are much better tools available for the task.
If anyone would like to hear a few real stories of shotgun shootings let me know and I'll dug up a couple from the archives.
Daves-got-guns
New member
hmm very good stuff jeager. I am always interested in factual data, and idk if anybody else would like to hear but i would like to hear a story or 2 if you have the time, and what loads you would consider "optimal" for a shotgun. I believe federal to be the #1, atleast in my shotgun but like a woman, all are "unique". In a short barreled riot-type gun would you want something that disperses more lead? like say a magnum 1 buck? thats kind of my thinking with what ive heard of the poor patterning quality of riot guns but i cant make heads or tails of what to do with a stubby pump.
The greatest issue with the 12 bore 'riot' gun is control of the weapon.
I'll define riot gun as a short barreled pump with no choke (cyl. bore) or imp. cyl.
The very best thing a person can do is pattern the thing at the ranges one exepcts to bring it into action.
If defending life, limb, and property is your goal (watch your laws on property) then your practical ranges might be 3 to 25 feet.
You know your home and situation, I don't.
I live in the country with no close nieghbors so over penetration is not an issue for me.
My h.d. s.g. is an 870 Express loaded with 3" mag #4 buck.
00 buck or #1 would do just as well I think. This particular weapon sports a 20" smooth bore, rifled sights, and has been smithed by a s.g. smith.
It has the forcing cone relieved, bore polished, and threaded for tubes, it wears a mod.
You need not have your barrel worked on. I'm just a goof ball that wanted to invest more money on the two barrels that came with the gun to determine if the work done was worth investing more money in the two barrels than the gun cost new!
I get 10 or better % tighter patterns. That is not a significant issue for h.d. but this one doubles as a hunting firearm.
The short barrel with sights and extra full choke tube patterns well with turkey loads at 40 yards.
Pattern your gun at the ranges you think you might have to use it.
That is paramount.
A story:
A really bad gobblin was married to a woman with a teen aged daughter, not a product of this union.
This gobblin had an impressive criminal record.
I knew the man well, in fact knew his whole family of really bad people.
It was my job to "get involved" with the criminal element. As a detective I could not learn my turf from the country club don'cha'know?
Wife of gobblin learns from her 15 year old daughter than Mr. Gobblin had been having sex with her but she said nothing out of extreme fear of him.
She had good reason to be afraid.
He was that bad a man.
I was respectufully afraid of the guy myself, quite frankly, but careful to never show fear around those kind of animals. His whole family were animals that would kill ya in a heartbeat.
Daughter finally breaks down to mommie when Mr. Gobblin isn't home and tells of years of sexual abuse.
Mommie of course is livid with anger but has better sense than to call the cops because one or more of the 'family' will get them if Mr. Gobblin doesn't.
She sends the vilolated daughter away for the night telling her to keep her mouth shut!
She confronts Mr. Gobblin when he comes home quite drunk as usual.
Mr. Gobblin admits his msideeds, then proceeds to beat the living $hit out of mommie saying if she calls the cops he'll kill them both.
He would.
He then goes to bed with his 14" single shot 12 bore, loaded with 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot. I forget the brand of ammo now.
This is normal for the pig, I mean Mr. Gobblin, to sleep with the loaded gun.
Mommie decides to run off, gather up the violated daughter and leave town and disappear.
First she decides to take the s.g. away from the passed out drunk Mr. Gobblin for fear if he wakes up he would shoot her in the back as she tries to leave.
Wise move, 'cause he would.
She quietly takes the gun by the stock and begins to pull it away from the sleeping animal, I mean Mr. gobblin, and lo and behold he wakes up, grabs the barrel and pulls it toward him and out of mommies grasp.
Fine and dandy except the gun was cocked and it went off!
Fortunately the barrel was pointed in a safe direction, right at the center of Mr. Gobblins chest!
Gobblin took the entire charge at near contact distance. We figured a mere inch or flat out contact.
Anyway the charge hit him just left of center of the sternum, angled to the right so that the charge hit to the left of the sternum, and angled to the right into the heart.
Mr. Gobblin was really, really, pissed!
He got out of bed and chased mommie across the bedroom swinging the discharged s.g. in an attempt to brain her.
Then he realized he was dead and appropriately acted as such.
I got called in from home to investigate.
I did the autopsie (yes police can do them if a coroner or pathologist is in the room in my State).
The heart and both lungs were shredded as you might imagine. The wads were lodged in what was left of the Gobblins heart. No shot passed through.
Trace metal tests on his hands indicated he did grab the s.g. barrel.
I wrote it up as an 'accidental' shooting.
The coroner and grand jury agreed.
Well you must understand the only story being told was told by the only living witness.
Case closed.
Mommie moved to another state to be with her family and got her daughter into counseling.
I went to the funeral.
After all they were friends of mine.
I'll define riot gun as a short barreled pump with no choke (cyl. bore) or imp. cyl.
The very best thing a person can do is pattern the thing at the ranges one exepcts to bring it into action.
If defending life, limb, and property is your goal (watch your laws on property) then your practical ranges might be 3 to 25 feet.
You know your home and situation, I don't.
I live in the country with no close nieghbors so over penetration is not an issue for me.
My h.d. s.g. is an 870 Express loaded with 3" mag #4 buck.
00 buck or #1 would do just as well I think. This particular weapon sports a 20" smooth bore, rifled sights, and has been smithed by a s.g. smith.
It has the forcing cone relieved, bore polished, and threaded for tubes, it wears a mod.
You need not have your barrel worked on. I'm just a goof ball that wanted to invest more money on the two barrels that came with the gun to determine if the work done was worth investing more money in the two barrels than the gun cost new!
I get 10 or better % tighter patterns. That is not a significant issue for h.d. but this one doubles as a hunting firearm.
The short barrel with sights and extra full choke tube patterns well with turkey loads at 40 yards.
Pattern your gun at the ranges you think you might have to use it.
That is paramount.
A story:
A really bad gobblin was married to a woman with a teen aged daughter, not a product of this union.
This gobblin had an impressive criminal record.
I knew the man well, in fact knew his whole family of really bad people.
It was my job to "get involved" with the criminal element. As a detective I could not learn my turf from the country club don'cha'know?
Wife of gobblin learns from her 15 year old daughter than Mr. Gobblin had been having sex with her but she said nothing out of extreme fear of him.
She had good reason to be afraid.
He was that bad a man.
I was respectufully afraid of the guy myself, quite frankly, but careful to never show fear around those kind of animals. His whole family were animals that would kill ya in a heartbeat.
Daughter finally breaks down to mommie when Mr. Gobblin isn't home and tells of years of sexual abuse.
Mommie of course is livid with anger but has better sense than to call the cops because one or more of the 'family' will get them if Mr. Gobblin doesn't.
She sends the vilolated daughter away for the night telling her to keep her mouth shut!
She confronts Mr. Gobblin when he comes home quite drunk as usual.
Mr. Gobblin admits his msideeds, then proceeds to beat the living $hit out of mommie saying if she calls the cops he'll kill them both.
He would.
He then goes to bed with his 14" single shot 12 bore, loaded with 1 1/4 oz of #5 shot. I forget the brand of ammo now.
This is normal for the pig, I mean Mr. Gobblin, to sleep with the loaded gun.
Mommie decides to run off, gather up the violated daughter and leave town and disappear.
First she decides to take the s.g. away from the passed out drunk Mr. Gobblin for fear if he wakes up he would shoot her in the back as she tries to leave.
Wise move, 'cause he would.
She quietly takes the gun by the stock and begins to pull it away from the sleeping animal, I mean Mr. gobblin, and lo and behold he wakes up, grabs the barrel and pulls it toward him and out of mommies grasp.
Fine and dandy except the gun was cocked and it went off!
Fortunately the barrel was pointed in a safe direction, right at the center of Mr. Gobblins chest!
Gobblin took the entire charge at near contact distance. We figured a mere inch or flat out contact.
Anyway the charge hit him just left of center of the sternum, angled to the right so that the charge hit to the left of the sternum, and angled to the right into the heart.
Mr. Gobblin was really, really, pissed!
He got out of bed and chased mommie across the bedroom swinging the discharged s.g. in an attempt to brain her.
Then he realized he was dead and appropriately acted as such.
I got called in from home to investigate.
I did the autopsie (yes police can do them if a coroner or pathologist is in the room in my State).
The heart and both lungs were shredded as you might imagine. The wads were lodged in what was left of the Gobblins heart. No shot passed through.
Trace metal tests on his hands indicated he did grab the s.g. barrel.
I wrote it up as an 'accidental' shooting.
The coroner and grand jury agreed.
Well you must understand the only story being told was told by the only living witness.
Case closed.
Mommie moved to another state to be with her family and got her daughter into counseling.
I went to the funeral.
After all they were friends of mine.
shappy0869
New member
Jeager, great story, please keep them coming as you have time (plus it will help keep this great thread alive).
O.K. shappy.
Story.
This one was a hunting accident that happened just outside the city I policed.
I only became involved by assisting the game warden that investigated the incident.
The truth can really be stranger than fiction.
Two 15 year olds boys walked to a woods that bordered one edge of our town.
Both lived in the city and often walked to the woods lot to hunt squirrels after school.
One boy walked just ahead of his friend down a narrow path.
The boy in the lead was built rather small, about 5'6" and 120 pounds.
The boy in the lead spotted a squirrel, stopped, and turned to tell his buddy what he saw.
The buddy was looking down at the path, had his 12 gauge single shot pointed in front of him, pretty much parallel with the ground and right about level with the 1st boys navel.
The freakin' thing was cocked!
When the boy in the lead stopped and turned the gun carried by the 2nd boy pressed into his friends belly and discharged.
The boy in the lead took a contact wound to the belly. The load was 1 1/4 oz. #5 shot.
There was no cell phones in those days, no house or people nearby.
The boys walked almost 200 yards to the nearest road and flagged down a motorist for help.
The victim never lost consciousness.
He was examined and x-rayed, taken straight to o.r. where most of his bowel was removed. And a lot of other things one can evidently live without.
He lived.
Amazing, what?
Here's why. No major arteries were ruined. The gut was instantly turned into jelly. Anyone ever gut a deer or other animal and see the jellied innerds?
Same thing. The gore plugged the hole preventing blood loss to a degree.
Now understand the victim was near death, did loose a lot of blood and will poop in a bag for the rest of his life.
Go figure. That wound should have been fatal.
Wanna here more?
I understand that these things are pretty gross so if it's offensive to anyone, please say so.
Some of these things bother me to this day.
Story.
This one was a hunting accident that happened just outside the city I policed.
I only became involved by assisting the game warden that investigated the incident.
The truth can really be stranger than fiction.
Two 15 year olds boys walked to a woods that bordered one edge of our town.
Both lived in the city and often walked to the woods lot to hunt squirrels after school.
One boy walked just ahead of his friend down a narrow path.
The boy in the lead was built rather small, about 5'6" and 120 pounds.
The boy in the lead spotted a squirrel, stopped, and turned to tell his buddy what he saw.
The buddy was looking down at the path, had his 12 gauge single shot pointed in front of him, pretty much parallel with the ground and right about level with the 1st boys navel.
The freakin' thing was cocked!
When the boy in the lead stopped and turned the gun carried by the 2nd boy pressed into his friends belly and discharged.
The boy in the lead took a contact wound to the belly. The load was 1 1/4 oz. #5 shot.
There was no cell phones in those days, no house or people nearby.
The boys walked almost 200 yards to the nearest road and flagged down a motorist for help.
The victim never lost consciousness.
He was examined and x-rayed, taken straight to o.r. where most of his bowel was removed. And a lot of other things one can evidently live without.
He lived.
Amazing, what?
Here's why. No major arteries were ruined. The gut was instantly turned into jelly. Anyone ever gut a deer or other animal and see the jellied innerds?
Same thing. The gore plugged the hole preventing blood loss to a degree.
Now understand the victim was near death, did loose a lot of blood and will poop in a bag for the rest of his life.
Go figure. That wound should have been fatal.
Wanna here more?
I understand that these things are pretty gross so if it's offensive to anyone, please say so.
Some of these things bother me to this day.
Well I've gone to all slugs for antipersonal purposes. Reduced recoil Remington slugs are plenty for the purpose and allow faster "splits" . I can hit a torso to 100 meters, and if you are not armored you are going down!I hit faces very well to 25 meters, which IS the limit of buckshot in the open so it is 'iffy'. Shotguns are very effective in and around buildings, if the barrel is short.Buck shot works well in rooms, but not for hostage shots, which is why I use slugs
I carried an Ithaca 37 LAPD riot gun, sent to me by my dad, in Vietnam in 1968-69 and with US Gubbamint brass 00 rounds, was the envy of many and it worked for me
I carried an Ithaca 37 LAPD riot gun, sent to me by my dad, in Vietnam in 1968-69 and with US Gubbamint brass 00 rounds, was the envy of many and it worked for me
gordo:
I agree completely about the range for buck.
The thread is about the "combat" s.g.
If I were in an urban 'combat' situation I would opt for a proper rifle for many reasons.
However the s.g. can be used to good effect by a well trained and committed individual.
But it is a specialized, not a general purpose, weapon.
I agree completely about the range for buck.
The thread is about the "combat" s.g.
If I were in an urban 'combat' situation I would opt for a proper rifle for many reasons.
However the s.g. can be used to good effect by a well trained and committed individual.
But it is a specialized, not a general purpose, weapon.
Jager --
Somewhere I have some x-rays of one of the nicest yellow labs you ever met that took a load of fine bird shot to the chest at muzzle contact range, dog lived, was adopted by the investigator who taged the sob who did it (he just did not want the dog anymore or was ticked off at it... like a lab is ever hard to find a home for) anyway it's a fantastic set of films because on the latteral it looks like oh my god who could survive that but on the v-d (front to back view) you can see 98% of the pelletts lodged in the chest wall muscles.
Dog did great with little treatment until kept getting an abcess at the site of the primary wound, finally poked around in there and pulled out the plastic shot wad
Somewhere I have some x-rays of one of the nicest yellow labs you ever met that took a load of fine bird shot to the chest at muzzle contact range, dog lived, was adopted by the investigator who taged the sob who did it (he just did not want the dog anymore or was ticked off at it... like a lab is ever hard to find a home for) anyway it's a fantastic set of films because on the latteral it looks like oh my god who could survive that but on the v-d (front to back view) you can see 98% of the pelletts lodged in the chest wall muscles.
Dog did great with little treatment until kept getting an abcess at the site of the primary wound, finally poked around in there and pulled out the plastic shot wad
Daves-got-guns
New member
rsqvet, that is sick that somebody would do that to a non malicous dog, and its how some people are i guess. I think its interesting that those cases, jeager that both incidents had similar shotguns and ammunition. Makes me think twice about a single shot shotgun for a kid, but it is all about carelessness, and in the bgs case just how things turned out. Its a good thing to hear closure on his case though, people like that make me sick and it might sound offcentered but i believe he deserved to die for raping that teenage girl for all that time, and i guess it is a case where karma got the better of him