My thoughts on the Combat Shotgun

BIG Psychological Edge

I am not a shotgunner. I own a couple of shotguns that I inherited, but I've never hunted with a shotgun and I don't shoot skeet. In the 14 years I served in the Army (1986-200)I carried the M16A2, the M16A1, the M3 greasegun ( I was a tanker for awhile )the 1911, the M249 SAW and of course the Beretta - no shotguns.I never saw any combat either.

Now I'm a new police officer of ten whole months. Approximately three weeks ago I pulled out my Remington 870 with a fourteen inch barrel while on an emergency call.

Now I know there is alot of controversy about barrel length and rounds. Okay I accept that, but when I pulled out my shotgun, racked a round, and ordered the two men throwing beer bottles at their fellow party goers to drop the bottles - they did. We took five people to the hospital that night. There was broken glass and blood all over the place. Nobody was seriously injured, but beer bottles do alot of damage when they hit. I wasn't about ready to go hands on with those guys. I followed the Use of Force model.I wrote my report and was told that in that case I displayed good judgement. So hooray for me.

Later on one of the two men stated to another officer that a handgun isn't as impressive as having a "goddamm" shotgun pointed at them.So I am a firm believer in the psychological impact of the shotgun if nothing else. Believe me I was happy to have it that night. Initally there were three of us and probably a couple hundred guests. It was a Quinceneria (I hope I spelled that right) that got out of control when some guests who were already drunk showed up.
 
Jeff #111,

The circumstances that you so aptly illustrated were PERFECT for the shotgun!!

Glad the "intimidation factor" worked for you. That (as you know) is a legitimate and proven quality the shotgun has in this country.

Thanks for the post, and glad you followed the first rule of law enforcement: (add in Sean Connery accent from the movie "The Untouchables) "You make sure your alive to go home at the end of your shift. Thus endeth the lesson."

cheers

tire iron
 
Just my 2 cents worth.
I'm happy for anyone who has had the "intimidation factor" of a shotgun work for them. Really. However during my 15 years as a cop I found that intimidation only worked well on the proverbial "Reasonable Person." Rarely in a deadly force situation is the bad guy reasonable. If he were, there would not be a deadly force situation to begin with.

Train hard, know your weapons's limitation and may Lady Luck be with you. I would, however, caution against putting too much faith in the possible psychological effect a shotgun may have. It may end up biting you where the monkey puts his peanuts.
 
Denny has a good point, Jeff. While I stopped an escape attempt at the Md House of Correction by racking a round, it's not something to depend on.

At the same time, the late Gary Klein had a point about few people "Bucking" when a shotgun was pointed at them,which is why his nickname (earned during armed robberies) was Buckshot.

Unfortunately for him, he ran across an exception to the rule when he stuck up a convenience store here and met a Korean store owner that carried. Final score was 1-0, the store owner's favor.

People are irrational, and felons are usually not wrapped tight. Ever deal with a PCP freak? Drunks are a piece of cake by comparison.

Stupidity plays a large part, natural selection is an imperfect and lengthy process(G)...
 
Shotguns

Some good point about shotguns. But I didn't grab it just for the intimidation factor. I was more then ready to use it. Both those guys that I found myself confronting are well known local hoods and they are known to carry. One of them once knocked another guys teeth out with a rock and then had his familiy and friends scare the victim and witness into not testifying.

The fact of the matter is there were two things running through my head that night. The first one was, " jeez we're outnumbered and this is bad." The second one is I once read an article by Ayoob. In it he said consider a shotgun to be a bigger handgun with similar limitations - just a little stronger. I decided that the situation called for firearms and the shotgun seemed like a good choice in the heat of the moment.

Believe me I know how lucky I was. All three of us do because once I had those two proned out on the ground the other couple hundred or so people did what we told them to. Amazing. We really breathed a sigh of relief when the county and a couple of stste troopers showed up to help. I've never taken on a "duster" but I did help arrest a cranker on a felony warrant a couple of nights ago. There were two of us and that little 120lb female did not go easily.That situation was strictly hands on. We won, but I did get a boot up the side of my face. This job is amazing if sometimes a little painful.
 
Jeff, part of my uniform for years the state didn't issue was a cup, if you catch my drift. Wore Kevlar also. Great stuff....

Crackheads get goodncrazy. Even a 120 lb female can be a threat, glad that boot didn't get a better shot at you.

And to all good cops and COs, may G*d Bless and Watch over you....
 
Dave3006,

I applaud your attitude in not taking anyone (nor their tests) at face value. However, i will respectfully disgaree with you on several issues.

CQB is often defined at being from 0-10m. Clint Smith has stated (and i'll have to paraphrase here) that at close range shotguns remove meat and bone, but must be aimed to be effective.
This of course is due to pattern dispersion, or lack thereof at CQB distance. You can miss with a shotgun, up close or at distance.
CQB is rarely fought in the dark- weapon mounted white lights are usually used, though there may be some exceptions, primarily in infantry combat, which is usually described as Close Range Engagement- CRE.
Yes, human opponents do move in a fight. Gunfights are dynamic affairs. However, as the average size room in a residential occupancy may be somewhere (depending on geographical location and price range) around 10'x13', movement may, or may not be constrained by design.
Shotguns are no easier to utilize then carbines or smg's, and may in fact be much worse due to muzzle blast, recoil, overpenetration and inability to rapidly reload (though the last may be a non issue).
I know of no team that uses 7.62x51mm weapons for CQB, and probably for cause- they also exhibit extensive muzzle blast, and recoil may prevent rapid follow up shots- and overpenetrartion is horrific with certain ammunition.

I'm not sure of the protocol used for your testing of 5.56x45mm, but i have witnessed numerous tests, and have of course seen others published (notably the Albuquerque PD test done by Neal Terry) that indicate 5.56 is a safer round to use in CQB- though not by any means perfect.
The major issue in CQB is rapidly defeating your opponent. Missed shots may in fact hit someone unintended- as may shots that perforate your opponent. 5.56 will usually fragment and tumble within several inches of striking anything. 9x19mm will react significantly differently, and perforation of an opponent may occur more often.
Also, 5.56x45 will perforate soft body armor, where pistol caliber cartridges and most shotgun ammunition will not.
If you have the opportunity, attend a class by Giles Stock hosted by Hornady. Giles is a real deal guy, and knows more about the black art of ballistics then most.
Read the writings of Dr. Gary Roberts, specifically as related to effectiveness of 5.56x45 in the CQB environment. Gary is another SME on ballistics, and is methodical in his research.
Special Operations Teams have transitioned from sub caliber machine guns to 5.55x45 for many reasons- ballistically superior, safer to use indoors, ability to provide rapid follow up shots on demand, ergonomics, terminal ballistic effect, ammunition capacity ands ability to reload rapidly, and ability to utilize out to 200 yds or so.

On the related note of intimidation, my good friend and NYPD cop Steve Green has stated " The only time someone should ever hear me rack the slide is when i am preparing to shoot him again".
I have some serious issues with going into a gunfight with a Condition 3 gun (though i understand completely the "cruiser ready" condition may make that necessary).

Gunfights within the confines of structures are violent and exciting affairs. The ability to deliver rapid, accurate shots into a threat will determine whether you will have a war story or a Memorial Softball Field named after you.
Nothing- absolutely nothing that you can realistically hold in your hand can be counted on to stop an adversary.

Stay in the fight.
 
Thanks Pat. I never meant to say that a shotgun doesn't need to be pointed. I just think think it will be easier to hit with due to the spread of the buckshot on moving targets. As far as penetration is concerned, a .223 may penetrate less than a 9mm. However, that is not the point. They both penetrate typical home materials far too much in an urban environment and run the risk of killing a neighbor. 00 buck minimizes that risk. Regarding stopping power, a .223 is a good immediate stopper if you have a class III weapon. It is less effective in a mini-14 for example. For civilians, the shotgun will put the bad guy down faster. As a matter of fact, THIS is the overriding key issue for CQB above all other things after safety of innocent people. You will be literally face to face with your opponent. If he can stay in the fight only 1-2 seconds after you shoot him, he still lives long enough to take you out. The shotgun is not perfect. But, it is the best non-class III weapon.

My comments are mainly directed to civilians (BTW, cops are civilians!) I would expect to be more likely to use my Benelli at night during a riot or home break-in.
 
Having shot a couple of tactical shotgun matches and having done a little personal training on my own, I can tell you that Erick's mention of being able to effectively do a lot of practicing unloaded is very true. If you can, get yourself several dummy rounds or snap caps. I've learned that what wins these things is gunhandling. If you're fast to mount the shotgun to your shoulder (which you need to do; let's dispell the myth of clearing a room with a shotgun fired from the hip, right now.), you'll be that much quicker to fire. Practice fast reloads. Practice making sure that the gun comes to your shoulder in allignment with your target, for a true "snap shot."

Then get out to the range and set up 5 reactive targets like steel plates, or some chest-sized cardboard targets a little distance from each other at 7 yds distance, and practice killing them rapid fire. All of you with pump guns who really believe you can fire them as rapidly as autos-- take them out and try this. I'm not talking about simply function-firing the gun as rapidly as one can cycle it, but firing aimed fire, changing targets while cycling, and doing it again. It can be done mighty quick with a pump, but it's a perishible skill that takes practice to keep one sharp.

It's a good point to remember that shotguns have their limitations. While load changes can overcome some, have you practiced your load change for speed? How many shells are with you or are on board the shotgun when you pick it up?

--L.P.
 
Good point about speed. In all of the shotgun classes I have taken, the semi-auto's are about twice as fast. Not to mention all the shortshucking pump gunners do when they get excited.

I personally do not see capacity as a limitation for a civilian. I doubt that a person could find even one documented situation where a civilian had to tactically reload a shotgun or even a handgun to remain alive. Sometimes the things we learn in the shooting schools just don't happen in real life.
 
Jeff and Pat,

Welcome to TFL! Glad to have you both.

I have been a small game (mostly rabbits and squirrel) hunter for most of my life. I killed my first deer with a shotgun. I have three shotguns, and I love them.

I believe a shotgun is best employed by the citizen who uses them often as hunting arms, and so is intimately familiar with them.
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I do not believe in intimidation factor to stop a potential threat to my life, and I do not believe in giving away any clues to my strength to those who already pose a threat to me. I feel similarly when some have bragged about the "intimidation factor" of their knives. (I feel that I have gravely erred if I am forced to employ a knife, and my attacker even knows I have a knife in play.)
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I tested an old Second Chance Level II vest against a 2 3/4 Foster slug a year ago. Vest was not penetrated, but was knocked about 2" into the creosote-soaked wood on which the vest was mounted.
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At some point in the future, I plan on getting one of the Saiga-12 shotguns, with their rugged action system and detachable mags. This is less a priority than a FN-FAL, or setting up my PSS. :)


john
 
Erick, Spectre, thanks!

Dave 3006,
Each one of us has a frame of reference that is unique, and so it is that we see things differently.
You say that by pointing a shotgun at a moving target you will increase the potential for a hit due to the pattern spreading.
OK, if you are far enough away for the pattern to spread, what happens to those pellets that miss? We are of course responsible foe everything we launch down range, and those pellets can, and will hit something- perhaps that neighbors 6 yr old?
At close range- within the "A"" zone, the charge will be almost exactly the diameter of the bore, so there is no advantage to the shotgun there- it will hit only what you aim at, just like any other firearm.
You also mention "Class 3" weapons, and i am mystified here. Where are you going with this?? Are you advocating full auto fire in CQB?
If so, then you are pretty unique- i know of no team that utilizes full auto with 5.56 during the surgical shooting required in CQB. We did it with the MP5's, but we had to in order to ensure incapacitation. There is a fair amount of info related to the use of 5.56mm during IHR and CQB, and it is fairly positive. Keeping in mind that nothing can be guarenteed to work all of the time, the 5.56 works a lot more then it doesn't, and this is why we use it and not a shotgun.
While i am not a big fan of the Mini's, it is an 18" bbl carbine that launches a projectile down range exactly like any other carbine. It is therefore as efficient (or unefficient in your view) as any other firestick.
Dave, you are absolutely entitled to your opinions as am I and all others. I'm not sure of your particular frame of reference, but i feel pretty confident of mine.
 
Pat, it could be that Dave3006 is referring to the stopping power of rapid, multiple hits. Abstract sense, not necesarily specific to his preferred usage.

While I wouldn't choose any full-auto critter for my home defense, I note that my nearest neighbor in line-of-sight is a half-mile away. My use of full-auto would be determined by how much of my furniture (and hearing) I'd care to damage. :)

And, welcome aboard!

Art
 
At 5-10 yards, you certainly have a bigger spread than a .223! Every little bit helps. Have you ever tried to hit a moving target with a carbine? It is not that easy. And, if I do miss, my ballistically challenged 00 pellets will be far less deadly as they leave my house than a .223 rifle round. My neighbor is 25 feet away. I think he would appreciate my attitude. And yes, multiple (9) simultaneous hits are better than one .223 round for stopping a very close adversary.

I cringe thinking about all the people who buy into the urban carbine fad that have never, never bothered to think about overpenetration. They read an article at take it as fact. Kind of like the Straussburg tests. Geesh.
 
Shotguns and more shotguns

Boy this thread is really showing some serious legs. I think everyone is making some excellent points about the smoothbore. I carry one because it comes with my cruiser. I carry a mixed load of OO buck and slugs because my departmetn says I have to. I practice with my 870 because I have to qualify with it.

Personally I think the shotgun will do the job. You still have to use some skills and common sense, but that goes for all firearms. While the shotgun may not be as good as a weapon as say an M4 carbine or the MP - 5 if it's all you got then it beats the heck out of a rock.

By the way with all this debate about the combat shotgun I seem to remember the Marine FAST teams use shotguns as well as the MArine security teams that guard all the nuclear vessels etc. Is this correct? I was in the Army, but I respect the Marines and if they believe in the shotgun then it must still have a place in combat units as well as the suburbs. Any former Marines out there? If you have any input it would be welcomed.

Oh, and before I leave, did the Strassborg test really take place? Or is it some kind of "urban legend?"
 
Jeff, many of us have our doubts about the goat test.

Here's a very recent thread on them. Some folks seem to have some type of emotional attachment; I don't really care much, one way or the other. I figure, if I do any fighting, it will probably be somebody real mean, and too stupid to just stop after I shoot 'em once, no matter what I'm using.

Saw a deer like that, last year. I "reminded" that 'ole buck with a .40 a half-hour or more after he took that .35 Remington slug. Didn't have that problem with the little buck I took a few days later, but then, I was using a .45-70. I do reckon you tend to get a little "luckier" when you use more gun.
 
Pat Rogers

Good to see you here.

Jeff #111

I (tire iron) am a former Marine. The Marines DO NOT issue a "shotgun" for "combat". Shotguns are used in the Marine Corps for LE type activities, of which FAST is part of. In an LE typer scenario, the shotgun has SOME merit. However, in a "combat" type scenario, the shotgun is TOO limited in its capabilities compared to other weapon systems out there.

FR (Force Recon) USED to have shotguns for "breaching", as I mentioned in the opening (albeit long) post to this thread. However, since FR no longer has the IHR mission, maybe this is no longer valid.

Pat Rogers can speak about current USMC policy on the shotgun.

Pat?

cheers

tire iron
 
USMC and shotguns

Okay now I see. Thanks for the update. I see what you mean about LE vs combat. But..... I do have a short exerpt from one of my books here at home. The book is about the history of the Winchester company. In the section about the Model 1897 the author puts in a recounting by a former Marine Lt.,Paul Jenkins, in WW1,5th Marine Regt, 2nd Inf Division. The 2nd Inf Div in WW1 was made up of two Army Inf regiment and two Marine Regiments.

...and when those shotguns got going-with nine.34 caliber buck shot per load,6 loads in a gun, 200-odd men firing-the front ranks of the assualt simply piled up on top of one another in one awful heap of buckshot-drilled men.

I found this and thought it would make a nice addition to the thread. I don't know what it really proves, but it's fun throwing stuff like this into the fire.
 
Hi Guys, and thanks for the welcome.
OK- some facts. Force no longer has the IHR mission (some CO's thought that doing greenside and blackside concurrently strained their resources. This is not the case at 1st Force, but IHR is no longer a mission.
However, the training has not changed one bit (with the exception of the term IHR). VBSS, GOPLAT's etc are still a part of the MSPF mission profile. and breaching is the first step to entry. Force uses all breaching methods available, including shotgun. !st Force has Rem 870's, some Mossbergs (which are shunned when possible) and believe it or not, 2 Win 1200's.
That is the only reason that they have shotguns in the Company.

Now- FAST does not have a law Enforcement mission. They generally are used to deter, or respond after an incident to secure a location (the US Embassy's in Africa, or the USS COLE for example- actually, so did the embarked Force plt.)
While they may have some shotguns available, those i have recently worked with used M4's, M16A2's and M9 pistols.
Security Force Bn are also armed similarly, though shotguns may be used for protection of Special Weapons and such. I believe that they have shotguns available, but can't comment further because i don't know.
The reality is that in the Marine Corps, shotguns are not a major player in combat, but may be present for security or support functions.

Dave- as i said before, we all have different frames of reference.

"Have you ever tried to hit a moving target with a carbine?"?
Yes Dave, I have shot people at close range. It is not easy with any gun, and that is why we train to a higher standard, not a statistical certainty. My frame of reference is that the carbine is currently the best tool available across the spectrum.
Yopu have your opinions based on your frame of reference, and while i strongly disagree, i also respect it. There is no sense in either of us wasting each others time here. Do what you need to do, and i'm sure you will do fine.
 
I wonder how much of the continued LE dominance of shotguns over rifles/carbines is simply due to the relative price tags. New in box, a basic pump shotgun is pretty cheap compared to an AR15-clone or even a Mini14. It is one thing for the holders of the purse strings to release enough cash to buy a few M4 or MP5 for the tac team, and quite another to outfit every cruiser in the department with one.
 
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