My right to carry?

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DA

I always chuckle a little when I read your replies. The two states I have lived in these rules are indeed not legaly binding. As for giving my word, I think I covered it already that I first give my word to my wife and family to be there for them and provide for them, I sure as hell aint going to let them down. I never decieved anyone, they knew I did it as well as several others. Guess what, they couldn't do anything about it either. Your last paragraph is just down right funny.

I am not inclined to go to the local stop and rob and take what I want cuz thats how I want to live. I live within the law, always have and always will. I will however refuse to follow a rule that has no legal presidence. You could say I gave my word to my wife and kids, and plan on honoring my word 'till death. I do believe the vow went something like that.
 
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Boris

I think there is definite merit in what you write. After all, are we working to live or living to work? I quit living to work when I realized that the people at the top, the "winners" certainly don't live to work (at least not if they're really good). That was long ago. Did I marry my company or my wife? In the end who matters most?
Why is it that I owe my company so much when I have given so much? Their mentality always seems to be that I owe them for the living they give me. In reality I pay them above and beyond with my work ethic, my skill and experience, and my dedication. Certainly you can argue that they gave me the experience, but so many had the same chance and failed or quit. I did something with it. I don't owe anyone. I help make what they have a success and in fact I do it on my own and they know they can trust me to because I always have. After all of this they try to tell me what to do in my own vehicle. I should put their name on the title and they can make half the payment.
But still... Is it worth the risk???
 
Inspector3711

I also asked myself that question, and the answer was no it is not worth the risk. That is why I kept it in the car. Now if you ment worth the risk of breaking a stupid rule, I never once hesitated in doing what is right for myself and my family.
 
My point is that in this neighborhood there is a much greater chance of violence ocuuring because of an outsider rather than an employee. We are protecing ourselves from employees but not the criminals. I would agree more if this were a safer area.
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And I'm not arguing that point. Simply saying what some employers think.
 
David's loyalty is admirable, but it was Jabotinsky who hit the nail on the head with re: to the nature of corporations and the way they treat employees in the name of company interests.

I can be "loyal" to my company by giving them a days work for a days pay. I can be loyal to my boss because he/she's fair and treats me with respect. When corporate disloyalty conflicts with my bosses loyalty I tend to side with my boss.

Loyalty is something the company earns by treating employees with respect. Not by forcing them into policies to their detriment for the benefit of the corporate interests--specifically liability.

I was "loyal" and "honorable" enough not to carry on the job in violation of company policy, but being disarmed and unable to defend myself after work as I engaged in my personal persuits was out of the question. So was parking off company property. Therefore, my weapon stayed in my vehicle until I could arm my person before I left the yard.
 
The two states I have lived in these rules are indeed not legaly binding.
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And in other states they are.
As for giving my word, I think I covered it already that I first give my word to my wife and family to be there for them and provide for them, I sure as hell aint going to let them down.
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Nobody has said that you should.
I will however refuse to follow a rule that has no legal presidence.
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Thta's fine. Again, nobody has said that you should. However, legal or not, if you agree to follow an employers rules in order to be employed, and you then choose not to follow the rule, that is dishonest and unethical. That is my only point.
...and plan on honoring my word 'till death...
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One's word is either good all the time or it isn't good any of the time. Sorry, but you have shown us where you stand.
 
DA

I stand on the side of the law. I didn't carry at work because the law said I couldn't, but it didn't stop me from legaly keeping it in the car. Alot of us did it, and they knew it.

Ya see my word was good. I told them I did it and they knew it. Some of the managers got poopy about it, but were legaly hand tied.
 
I've seen those "No firearms or knives on the premises" signs. I find them disturbing. I'm sure the "crazy" abide by them too.

But what's to happen when the extreme does happen? Will they make sure my kids and wife are taken care of? Will they make sure my mom gets the big flag.

When that "crazy gunman" comes in and starts shooting up the place, the last thing on my mind will be my job or location. The first thing on my mind will be my backdrop and 3 dots lined up with mass in center.

Some people might say "yea but its so extreme, it'll never happen."

OKC, 911, Texas Mall, Virginia School Shootings, every other 7-11 etc. etc.

In my short life I've seen two barrels of a gun pointed at me, and that's two too many.

I've carried for 13 years, and the only ones that know about it are the one's that need to know.

What happens when a gunman shoots up a business and kills people? Does the business get sued for not making the place safe? Doesn't their insurance company payout anyways?
 
Boris,

I could legally get away with that too I'm sure. But if they or the police had a legal reason to get in my car (if I say I have a pistol they don't have a legal right, it would have to be something else that allowed access) I would definitely be terminated. This is a very large 300 year old european corporation. My experience is that when they set policy they stick with it. Our receiving personnel can't even use a box knife anymore, termination is immediate if caught. They use cutters with automatic retracting blades.
Nothing would happen if they knew about a firearm until the day the police needed to pull a slug from my car for evidence in a neighborhood shooting, or if my car was broken into. Or maybe a natural disaster or fire.
The moment that occured and they could physically prove that it was there I would be canned.
It may well be worth the risk depending on who you ask. Rule#1 according to HR: don't give the company any info they haven't asked for and tell nobody of your intent to conceal a weapon in your vehicle, not even your friends.
 
Inspector3711

PM me and let me know where you work so I for sure will never do business with them. I also know where you are coming from, but as I see it, it would be trivial if I did lose my job. Once you leave the parkinglot you are weapons free, If for some reason you did use it on company property and got fired, the news would have a hay day with that story and the 7.5% of WA residents (thats almost one in ten!!!) that carries would not want anything to do with them, and you would get a good lawyer from all the publicity and win a wrongful termination lawsuit for the simple fact they violated your civil rights.

As it stands I plan on not doing business with this company because I live not too far from you. So please let me know, my money will go elsewhere.......
 


DA

Words like ethical are buzz words. If I use a .223 rem to deer hunt for 20 years and take a deer every year and none never take more than 3 steps, is this ethical? Some states it is not even legal. But if it were legal and I did not agree with it, that simple fact would not make it unethical.

YOU may be more concerned with following a rule that could care less about your life or well being. I take the more simple approach, I care more about my life and the well being of my family. I follow the law and thats that.
 
Words like ethical are buzz words.
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Yes, honor, ethical, honesty, all just words. But as for buzz words? Guess that depends on the person. I was raised that a man's word was his bond, ethical behavior is to be strived for, and so on.
I follow the law and thats that.
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So your word means nothing unless there is the force of law behind it? Thank you for letting us know that. If I ever have to do business with you that will certainly be an important factor to keep in mind.
But if it were legal and I did not agree with it, that simple fact would not make it unethical.
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But that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing a situation where you do agree to do something, then intentionally do not live up to your agreement just because you don't want to. That is unethical.
 
Please remember this was not the policy until about a year ago. Few people here agreed to it. It was handed down and we signed a document stating that we read it. Nobody physically made a pledge that they would abide by it.
 
DA

I never agreed to follow their "rule", they knew it, some big dogs objected, but could do nothing. I gave them my word I would follow the law, and I did just that.

Sounds pretty ethical to me.
 
Nobody physically made a pledge that they would abide by it.
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No pledge needed. If you are taking the money, you've agreed to follow the rules. If you won't follow the rules you shouldn't take the money.

I never agreed to follow their "rule", they knew it, some big dogs objected, but could do nothing.
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See above. You're taking the paycheck, sounds pretty unethical to me.
 
DA

I am getting at it that you are trying to play devils advocate, as long as the law is followed it doesn't matter how much money I earn the company I work for and how little a percentage of the profit they give me. I was legaly able to keep it in the car and I did.

I will however admit to breaking one very important rule at my old job when I was a civilian. I met my wife at work. She was a lower level employee, while I was higher up the chain. I flat out violated the rule on dating lower level employees. I did not even care.

I married her and she quit that job. Now I have a family. Now I have the job I always wanted.

As long as I keep it legal. My priorities are on safety. If I can legaly carry I will. The rule at work has NOTHING to do with what I do when I am on my own time and my own time is when I carried. Do you not get it? Now if I carried while at work in the warehouse, then we have some legal problems as well as safety issues. I never did that so all was good.

To keep on saying I am unethical is borderline character assassination. Work time is work time, my time is my time. No laws were broken so I do not see why you see fit to criminalize my actions??
 
I was a supervisor at a state prison in Pennsylvania. Our state issued "Code of Ethics" manual which everyone had to sign for upon receipt stated, among other things, that personal weapons were not allowed on state property (parking lot).

A few years before I retired, one of my correction officers who lived in a very sleazy section of Philadelphia had his loaded personal gun confiscated by our security department. The CO with the gun had hitched a ride with another officer who was found with an illegal narcotic substance on his person while trying to enter the institution. We had a drug sniffing dog. A car was searched for more drugs and the gun was found. The officer with the drugs was later fired!

I was part of an investigation panel into charges against the officer who owned the gun. He attended the meeting with a union rep and produced police reports revealing that he had been robbed twice at knife point while getting out of his car at home. He worked the 2-10pm work shift. The gun was legally owned and the officer produced to us a valid Philadelphia County CCW permit.

Our security department insisted on a reprimand be imposed on him for being found to have a personal weapon on state property. We concurred on the verbal reprimand, at which time the union filed a grievance and the verbal was later reduced to a "formal counsel", which amounted to minor paperwork, which was soon shredded by persons unknown. ;)

At that time, if every staff members personal vehicle, on any work shift, was searched for guns, probably 1/2 of those vehicles would be found to contain a loaded weapon. But under silly state civil service guidelines, correction officers who were threatened each day by convicted felons and/or neighborhood thugs were not permitted to have any personal weapons in their vehicles at work.
 
I am getting at it that you are trying to play devils advocate,
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Not at all. This is something I believe in quite strongly.
I flat out violated the rule on dating lower level employees.
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So we have a history of unethical behavior. One can assume that you also would think it OK to claim sick-leave when not ill and so on.
I did not even care.
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I realize that, and that is where we part. I do care that the rules are observed.
As long as I keep it legal.
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Ethics and honesty go far beyond the law.
The rule at work has NOTHING to do with what I do when I am on my own time and my own time is when I carried. Do you not get it
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I get it just fine. Rules don't matter unless there is also a law on the subject. No problem, if that is your view. But you'll excuse me if I insist on a written contract and money up front should I ever have to deal with you.
To keep on saying I am unethical is borderline character assassination.
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You are the one who keeps saying that the rules and honesty don't matter.
No laws were broken so I do not see why you see fit to criminalize my actions??
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I have not criminalized anything. What is legal and what is ethical may not be the same, as we discussed earlier.
 
DA

Your problem is that you see your view of ethical as being the only possible way anyone could be ethical. I have a moral obligation to myself to be happy and productive to society. I work, pay taxes, violate no ones civil rights, and tell no one how to live their life as long as the law is followed. I have a wife and kids I love keeping happy as well as safe. I obviously do not care what you know, think, preach, or try to turn me into with your words. I will forever ignore a rule that has no legal bounds that restricts my right to life liberty and happieness. Just aint gonna happen.

FWIW, I have seen what happens when a group of people try to force their ethics on people that want nothing but freedom to live life as they see fit. I have talked to people that watched their husbands head cut off infront of their children in their own house because someone thought they were immoral in the way they lived (lookup moral and ethical, they are linked). I also got to go visit the people that did these things late at night. If I am willing to fight for the freedom of people I do not even know and do things to the badguys most people wont even do one time in their life time to one badguy here in the good ole USA. Then I sure as hell aint going to be a sheeple and lay down my right to protect myself and my family.

It is my moral obligation to uphold the rights earned by every USA citizen here, especialy mine.

BTW. I am not the only one here that admits to breakin the rule of DA. Go do some reading and give it to a few other people here as you have done to me. If you have a problem with me thats fine. Keep your garbage attacks on individuals to PMs or something, and post productive information, like maybe point out a law I may have broken and why someone could get introuble by following my advice. Remember YOU are protected by the 4th amendment, nothing will change that, thats a law, not a rule. Keep that in mind DA.........
 
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