My model 93 Mauser bit me!
- Thread starter jimbob86
- Start date
AlphaAssault
New member
My 93 doesnt have gas ports on the bolt. it is one of those 93/38 refits, too, so if any 93s have those ports, Im at a loss for who put them there.
also, if it helps: http://www.turkmauser.com/parts/bolt/bolt.aspx
also, if it helps: http://www.turkmauser.com/parts/bolt/bolt.aspx
"Did the model 96 mausers have gas vent ports?"
Yes, the M96 has a rudimentary gas escape hole in the bolt---it's visible just in front of the extractor collar on the right side when the bolt is closed.
This is actually the first reference to a bolt body gas port in Olson's "Mauser Bolt Rifles"----so it wasn't the M98, as I surmised earlier.
This means I was wrong and Screech, or Scratch or Whatever didn't catch it, despite " 30+ years of knowledge and experience ".
So what's that worth then? (Rude for rude, Scorch.)
I can say from experience that the escape port in the M96 bolt will not necessarily prevent the cocking piece being blown back into one's thumb. Shot number five from a box of facotry PMC 6.5x55, back in 1991 or 1992, was one of the infamous "blue pills" from Lot # 3006C-17g----which , among other things, recocked the rifle. Missed my thumb, though.
-----krinko
Yes, the M96 has a rudimentary gas escape hole in the bolt---it's visible just in front of the extractor collar on the right side when the bolt is closed.
This is actually the first reference to a bolt body gas port in Olson's "Mauser Bolt Rifles"----so it wasn't the M98, as I surmised earlier.
This means I was wrong and Screech, or Scratch or Whatever didn't catch it, despite " 30+ years of knowledge and experience ".
So what's that worth then? (Rude for rude, Scorch.)
I can say from experience that the escape port in the M96 bolt will not necessarily prevent the cocking piece being blown back into one's thumb. Shot number five from a box of facotry PMC 6.5x55, back in 1991 or 1992, was one of the infamous "blue pills" from Lot # 3006C-17g----which , among other things, recocked the rifle. Missed my thumb, though.
-----krinko
Something I did not know at the time I posted in this thread was that ammunition pressures rise as the ammunition gets older.
Notice that the guy was firing factory ammunition from the 1970's. It had obviously gone bad, increasing pressures, and piercing primers.
Since I have learned about the risks of old gunpowder, I have been collecting a few good examples, as warnings about old cartridges and old gunpowder.
The lifetime of gunpowder is unpredictable, the Air Force calls it indeterminable, which confuses a number of people, including Air Force personnel, as they confuse indeterminable with indefinite. (infinite) Indeterminable means “not able to be definitely ascertained, calculated, or identified” Basically, the stuff fails when it fails. A reasonable lifetime for double based is 20 years, single based 45 years, but, sometimes unreasonable things happen with gunpowder. I think this gunpowder was less than 10 years old before bottles started auto combusting because the stuff had aged unexpectedly quickly.
Combustion pressures also rise in old cartridges and this is what the OP was experiencing. His action was doing quite well for an old military action. Things could have been worse as the 1892 Mauser action has few gas venting protection features. If the OP had been using new factory ammunition or reloads with fresh gunpowder, assuming proper reloads, then he would not have experienced any of the over pressure conditions posted in this thread. That is the absolute first place to start with one of these old actions. Shoot appropriate ammunition, don’t shoot decades old stuff, and stop shooting old stuff if it shoots signs of overpressure.
Don’t shoot anything that looks like this:
Had my first ever hang fire (delayed shot?) today with my British 303. Was testing my first reload attempts with Hornady 174gr SP bullets. Waited about 10 seconds and had the rifle pointed slightly upwards. Scared the crap out of me and didn't have a really good grip. I never want to do that again...yikes.
My choice for a young girl would be something like a Ruger American Predator in something like a 243 or a 6.5 Creedmoor. There are plenty of reasonably priced factory offerings that are suitable for younger shooters. I would get something stocked suitably for her to shoot comfortably.
Old military rifles are fun to play with but they were made for cartridges that develop less pressure than modern loads and I would stay away from old surplus loaded ammo. Most of it wasn't very reliable when new. That said the mod.98 re-barreled to a mild chambering should be fine if done correctly by someone that knows what he is doing. Those usually don't come cheap.
Joe
Old military rifles are fun to play with but they were made for cartridges that develop less pressure than modern loads and I would stay away from old surplus loaded ammo. Most of it wasn't very reliable when new. That said the mod.98 re-barreled to a mild chambering should be fine if done correctly by someone that knows what he is doing. Those usually don't come cheap.
Joe
I do agree about the FP protruding a lot. But one thing we have to take into consideration is that in those days almost all primers were Berdan with a built in anvil on the cartridge. This really smashed the surface of the cap. On modern Boxer primers the anvil will crush under hi FP impact pressure. I personally have never heard of a modern Boxer primer being penetrated. But having said that, I still believe that the FP protrusion should be adjusted to a reasonable distance. The best and safest place to do that is at the base of the cocking piece. Placing a shim on the firing pin inside the shroud.
I have also performed the modifications to my bolts and firing pins to allow gasses to escape if penetration ever do occur. I attached some pictures. Please note that at this point the firing pin has a left and a right. The opening is 3/16 x 3/8 approximately 1/8 in front of the extractor ring.
I have also performed the modifications to my bolts and firing pins to allow gasses to escape if penetration ever do occur. I attached some pictures. Please note that at this point the firing pin has a left and a right. The opening is 3/16 x 3/8 approximately 1/8 in front of the extractor ring.
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I have quite a few 98s and they are chambered in full length Magnums such as 450 Ackley, 300-8mm Rem Mag, 375-8mm Rem Mag, 376 Steyr, 338 Win Mag, 6mm- 6.5mm Rem Mag Improved. Never had a stitch of problems or any evidence of trouble. However they are all Vz-24s. I shoot the two 375s a lot. must have close to 1K rounds through each.
The Small rings I am building are 7.62x45 Czech on two Turks and a 243Win on a Spaniard.
"Something I did not know at the time I posted in this thread was that ammunition pressures rise as the ammunition gets older."
If your ammo it that old and you're getting pressure signs try running them through the seating die with the die adjusted about one half to one full turn deeper. Sometimes the brass and copper bullets "cold weld" themselves and this will all kinds of merry hell with high pressures. When you do this, you should hear a slight "click" as the weld is broken.
I have a batch of .270's I loaded back in 1970 according to the notes on the box. Powder is that old milsurp 4831 to boot. I should either break them down after first reseating as mentioned above of reseat and shoot for practice ammo. Either should be a win win situation although I'll first break one down to check powder condition. I shot up a bunch of LC 51 30-06 ammo last year with no problem and that stuff was 65 years old. All sent bang and shot nice groups without a problem.
I haven't messed with a 93 Mauser since 1973/4. I think that as long as one stayed with factory level loads there shouldn't be a problem. If you want to bring the 7x57 up to modern pressure levels, use a rifle based on a modern action. If I were doing a deer hunt, or even one for elk and could be reasonably sure my shots would run 200 yards and less, I wouldn't worry about my 93/95 Mauser not working with plain old Winchester 145 gr. Power Points (if you can find any) or the the 175 gr. Hornady load. An equivilant handload with 150, 160 or 175 gr. bullets would also work just fine. Just remember your range should be limited to 200 yards or less.
As far as gas vents on a 93, frankly I honestly don't remember. Might be a good idea if there are none is find a competent gunsmith and have him put the escape hole in the receiver and the two holes in the bolt. Should help with escaping gas.
Paul B.
If your ammo it that old and you're getting pressure signs try running them through the seating die with the die adjusted about one half to one full turn deeper. Sometimes the brass and copper bullets "cold weld" themselves and this will all kinds of merry hell with high pressures. When you do this, you should hear a slight "click" as the weld is broken.
I have a batch of .270's I loaded back in 1970 according to the notes on the box. Powder is that old milsurp 4831 to boot. I should either break them down after first reseating as mentioned above of reseat and shoot for practice ammo. Either should be a win win situation although I'll first break one down to check powder condition. I shot up a bunch of LC 51 30-06 ammo last year with no problem and that stuff was 65 years old. All sent bang and shot nice groups without a problem.
I haven't messed with a 93 Mauser since 1973/4. I think that as long as one stayed with factory level loads there shouldn't be a problem. If you want to bring the 7x57 up to modern pressure levels, use a rifle based on a modern action. If I were doing a deer hunt, or even one for elk and could be reasonably sure my shots would run 200 yards and less, I wouldn't worry about my 93/95 Mauser not working with plain old Winchester 145 gr. Power Points (if you can find any) or the the 175 gr. Hornady load. An equivilant handload with 150, 160 or 175 gr. bullets would also work just fine. Just remember your range should be limited to 200 yards or less.
As far as gas vents on a 93, frankly I honestly don't remember. Might be a good idea if there are none is find a competent gunsmith and have him put the escape hole in the receiver and the two holes in the bolt. Should help with escaping gas.
Paul B.
I don't know the full story.There is some controversy whether it was a experimental semi-auto or a small ring Mauser that was involved,but Paul Mauser himself lost his right eye to gas escape and IMO,that had something to do with retro-active corrective measures on Mausers.
Maybe that's the 1916 thing. But I don't know for sure.
There is another factor in blown primers(among the many). The condition of the bolt face and firing pin hole.These wear/erode.
Old single shot gunsmiths "bushed firing pin holes" for a reason.
The greater gap you ask brass or primers to span,the more likely they are to fail.
Maybe its just me,but,if I'm starting a 12 yr old girl hunting or ice fishing or anything....I can get by with the old clunky equiptment.I'll use the Mauser and the clunky old boots.
And she'll have(If I can afford it) the CZ youth 6.5 Grendel and Merrill or Redwing or whatever good boots fit her.
That might mean an older H+R Topper break action 30-30,but it will get fitted to her like a bridesmaid dress!
She'll know its special for her.And a gun has to fit.
Maybe that's the 1916 thing. But I don't know for sure.
There is another factor in blown primers(among the many). The condition of the bolt face and firing pin hole.These wear/erode.
Old single shot gunsmiths "bushed firing pin holes" for a reason.
The greater gap you ask brass or primers to span,the more likely they are to fail.
Maybe its just me,but,if I'm starting a 12 yr old girl hunting or ice fishing or anything....I can get by with the old clunky equiptment.I'll use the Mauser and the clunky old boots.
And she'll have(If I can afford it) the CZ youth 6.5 Grendel and Merrill or Redwing or whatever good boots fit her.
That might mean an older H+R Topper break action 30-30,but it will get fitted to her like a bridesmaid dress!
She'll know its special for her.And a gun has to fit.
FrankenMauser
New member
What?
Firing pins do not retract during the firing sequence in Mauser-style actions.
And normal firing pin retraction (while opening the bolt) is not going to pierce a primer.
Well, the "young girl" when this thread started was 12, now she is 19. I am guessing the rifle problem has been solved by now.
As to powder deteriorating over time, I think it really depends on the powder and how the ammo was stored. Luckily, there is a decent knowledge base for pretty much all the surplus ammo that is available, and "new" stocks of surplus ammo are extremely unlikely to appear.
Millions of rounds of surplus ammo have been shot through old military rifles over the years without incident, but as with any old ammo, you pay your money and you take your chances.
I do apologize for bringing this thread back to life. There is just very little talk about small ring Mausers, especially 93-95s and I do have five of these project actions to work with. Two Turks and three Spaniards. I just sold one A Spaniard last week to someone who has been searching for one. My two Turks will both be 7.62x45 Czech. (think of it as a 7.62x39 on asteroids). It has about 200fps more than the 7.62x39. I have a Mini Mk-X in that cartridge right now and wanted something with a 22" barrel instead of the 18" that is on the Mini Mk.-X. Also I wanted to be able and use longer bullets than can be used in the stock length action. Now I can go up to 150gr bullets instead of the 123gr bullets I have been using. One will be using Williams WGRS sight and the other a scope. One of the Spaniards is planed for a 243Win. and one for a 7x57 Mauser.
I would rethink the .243 Win. .243 is a ~60K PSI pressure cartridge. The Spanish M93 action was designed for a cartridge putting out a lot less than that.
SAMMI max pressure for 7X57 Mauser: 51K PSI
It is unlikely to blow up, but you will probably see lug setback and a ruined rifle that won't headspace after a while, how log depends on how good the steel is in your particular action.
SAMMI max pressure for 7X57 Mauser: 51K PSI
It is unlikely to blow up, but you will probably see lug setback and a ruined rifle that won't headspace after a while, how log depends on how good the steel is in your particular action.
I plan on loading a bit light since I have 2 6mms that can push close to 4K-fps. I can load at mid load recommendations. I got a tight twist barrel and plan on using 95+ gr bullets and move them in the high twos, 2.8-2.9k. That should leave the pressures down below the 55K#.