My Mall Scenario :)

Well, I was being a touch silly.

The real points were that:

1. The best strategy is to get out of Dodge, if one takes a realistic view of saving just oneself.

2. If the family is there - I think we all agree that we need to get to them. That probably means avoiding the shooters if one can. Proactive engagement at a distance from the family is not going to help them if they are in another part.

3. If you see another armed individual, that person is an unknown quality. I would avoid such when fleeing or going back to the family.

I've heard presentation by terrorist experts who have wondered why if we don't have significant terrorist cells in the USA, we haven't seen such mall or other crowded area attacks. They certainly have been done in Europe and Israel.

The arguments are not that the terrorists fear the CCW type but more on the strategy of incident impact and that such attacks don't serve their interests.

Lott argues that rampage shootings have decreased because of CHL. I'm not so sure. The numbers are small and statistical significance is weak. We have no evidence from rampage shooters or prospective shooters that they considered CHLs. However, how would one get such data?

Shooting incidents in Israel seem to have diminished due to armed populace issues, though.

Some anecdotal points:

The guy who shot up the Jewish Day Care in California avoided another school as it had an armed guard (not a CHL worry).

Two rampage shootings didn't go well for recent CHL types - Texas courthouse and Mall guys. First was killed, second froze and was shot.

However, these are so small in numbers to be meaningless. We don't know if the shooters considered CHLs. Texas guy had armor but that was probably for the cops.

This probably has run its course.
 
First, I’d have to recon and ascertain the situation. Then call 911 – let them know what I’ve ascertained. Then phone my wife on her cell and find out what her situation is, if she is clear, I’d have her take cover. THEN, IF people are in fact being killed at random, I’d go to my car; get my .44 Super Blackhawk & my Browning 92B .44MAG, return to the mall, find good cover and take out the BG’s.
Sorry if this sounds like too much, and it may not be the right answer; BUT (as much as I would hate to take a human life) I can’t with all good conscience let civilians die when I have the skills, equipment & ability to do different. An American is one who defends the defenseless.
Robert
 
Glenn,
BTW, this again points out why FOF is quite different from matches or videos.
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FoF is gonna help you hide from multiple ar-15 armed attackers while looking for your family in the mall? You practice sneaking around multiple bad guy's with rifles in FoF? You yourself have seen the futility in going against multiple attackers? This experience of getting "hosed" helped you how? Are the next multiple attackers you face are somehow doomed now that you have this experience? I think the outcome will be the same. You and I both will probably get "hosed" by multiple attackers, so FoF is not a magic mojo. Besides its gonna take allot of money to cover every scenario and keep proficient at it. In no way do I believe that competition will overcome overwhelming odds but neither will FoF. Again I do agree that FoF is good if you can afford it.

Shooting incidents in Israel seem to have diminished due to armed populace issues, though.
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Being armed does prevent crime. Same as good outdoor lighting and alarm systems reduce the number of breakins. I don't think it stops wack jobs from going on rampages though.

Being armed has prevented the pawnshop that I manage from being robbed for over 20 years. I know this because the 2 shops within 5 blocks of ours get regular visits from robbers to the tune of 3plus each per year. They both have the same money and gold as ours. They have 5 employees and we have only 3 on duty daily. They close at 7PM and we close at 9PM. We use to open till midnight. We have never been robbed but every employee openly carries a sidearm. That is the only difference.
 
River,

That is not the difference, that is the reason!
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Yeper. Imagine 3 robberies per year for 20 years. I have heard from 8,000 in cash and gold to over 40,000 per event. Just using 10,000 dollars as an average and thats 600,000 dollars minumum that simply being armed has saved. The best thing is my boss. Several liberal N.Y. family members have tried to get him to stop us from carrying for liability reasons. He says that he would rather lose all his money than live knowing that one of us died because we weren't allowed to protect ourselves. The absolute coolest boss ever. We get new guns at cost. Used guns at a song.
 
If I'm alone call 911 set up an OP somewhere outside. If my family is inside call my wifes cell and tell her to leave at the nearest exit, she already knows that gunfire in the mall is not good and she will probably already be there. If I can't determine whether or not she is inside then I'll go back and do whatever is needed to get them out. I know a hanggun is not the weapon of choice agaisnt 3 BGs armed with ARs but if you could get close enough maybe.....
 
Calling 911 seems like a waste of time unless youre actually standing at a payphone ready to use it, or you have already made it to your car and are driving away from the scene and feeling bored. Why? The people inside with landlines undoubtedly started dialling as soon as the first shot rang, the call connected in an instant and the cops were dispatched to their exact location. Try the same thing with a cellphone and *if* you get through, to the *right* dispatch, you have to confirm your location before the cops will know where to go. Not something you want to deal with when ducking behind a planter hiding from bullets.

What would I do? I don't have a very aggressive attitude most of the time, but like many people I have a 'hero' complex and would be inclined to directly intervene. The guy in the parking lot wouldn't be one of them (who the hell shows up late for a shootout). Join him and find independent cover near the shooters, start taking careful shots until the shooters actually draw to fire on you. Line of fire? If anyone is around the shooters they are probably already dead. Gauge their reaction and prepare to retreat *fast*. Most likely they will relocate, depending on their ultimate goal (be it robbery) or they will pursue you (be it suicide-by-cop). Hope its not the latter. If you are carrying, hopefully you already have a head full of knowledge, like the things to hide behind that can stop a .223 round, and the fastest way out of the building. Put together a strategy like leading them your way and then sneaking one of multiple ways away from there, to split them up or mislead them. Unless your are in sneak, be constantly shouting 'gun, gun, get cover' so that fewer bystanders will be in harms way. When you aren't engaging, keep your weapon pointed straight down so noone assumes you are an aggressor.

This is some john wayne crap, indeed. But, many lives are on the line and if i had a choice to put myself in danger to save several people, i would gladly do it. Everyone in there is someones kid, someones parent, someone that doesnt deserve to get shot any more than if they were your own. Thats why people carry in the first place, right?
 
The Moderator closes my post about alien invasion scenarios, but leaves this open....why. What ever happened to free speach. Unless you can prove Aliens don't exist, it's just a question of probabilities.

I think I'd call the cops and get the hell out of there......a lot of dead hero's in the world, no need to add to that number
 
The Moderator closes my post about alien invasion scenarios, but leaves this open....why. What ever happened to free speach. Unless you can prove Aliens don't exist, it's just a question of probabilities.
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Well it is their forum and they have the right to choose their rules.
Generally they like for threads to have some measure of possiblilty. I post a lot of threads that are improbable but not impossible.
While I can't disprove aliens in space, the fact is we have never seen one much less had an invasion of the planet. Even if we did, we don't even know they would have the Star Trek weapons that you described in your thread "phasers, disruptors, deflector shields, death rays, etc." It's far fetched fiction on top of fiction on top of fiction. It's like posting at thread about Night of the Living dead where a bunch of zombies attack you. Do you shoot them in the head? Or what if the Wolfman attacks you? Do you carry Silvertip HP Bullets? They like to do save Tactics and Training for realistic threads.
General Discussion forum would probably be better for the Alien Invasion senario. (BTW, I am a Sci Fi Fan....from Twilight Zone to Star Trek The Next Generation. I liked your thread. In General Discussion it probably would have had a lot of fun :cool: )
 
Attacks on the mall are certainly in the realm of possibility if you look at other countries, loonies that have done exactly that here and listened to presentations of possible terrorist scenarios.

My focus was not as much as the classic interventionist conundrum as to how you might interact with other armed citizens.

Some folks have advocated carrying a long arm in the car for such incidents. While discouraged by some, it is not out of the realm of possibility that we could see many focused attacks on public places.

The idea that a terrorist couldn't be late or that such folks might not stage outside is not realistic. At one school shooting, the kids staged outside and pulled the fire alarm and shot at those fleeing. That certainly could happen at a mall. Start a fire fight at one end and then have a team at the other to nail those exiting.

Thus, if you were faced with someone taking out a long arm - can you be sure that it is a good guy? I don't know.

If you did carry your long arm - would you then be at risk from arriving law enforcement - damn right you would be.

If I were a cop and arrived at a mall with teams of folks carrying ARs and shooting at each other - that would be just delightful.

As I pointed out, in our diverse society, one can't have any clear sign of who is the terrorist. I worried that a minority good guy would be at significant risk. As I pointed out, after Diallo, there are clear studies indicating that minorities are at risk. Interestingly, the risk seems more from civilians than trained LEOs.

So, God forbid that we face such firearms based terrorism in the USA. If a mall shoot starts, it's going to be a mess.

Do CHLs really deter as Lott suggested? Who really knows now?
 
If you did carry your long arm - would you then be at risk from arriving law enforcement - damn right you would be.
If I were a cop and arrived at a mall with teams of folks carrying ARs and shooting at each other - that would be just delightful.
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Glenn,

Think about this and please I do not in any way, shape or form agree with this way of thinking but one has to give this some consideration.

When the "Brady Bunch" reads this and I'm quite certain they will, they're argument will be, if all guns were banned we wouldn't have to worry about the goodguys running around being mistaken for BG's by the police.

Yeah right, all the goodguys would be dead but at least they wouldn't be a threat to the police!
 
I suppose that antigunners could read the forum and pick out way more ridiculous postings.

However, discussing such issues has to be done somewhere. The internet has given us an open forum.

If we discuss some possible problems in gun use - yes, somebody might quote them. That's life.

Should we ban scenarios as folks chest pound to a ridiculous level in some?

There are far more crackpot stuff in gun forums than this thread.

You have a point but I think it is a risk that goes with the terrority of open discussion.
 
Glenn,
I was not suggesting that discussing issues such as this should be banned. The antigunners have probably already thought of what I suggested might happen.

I was just thinking about how ridiculous their platform of "ban all guns" actually is. Look what happened in England. Not even the cops have guns, only the BG's do!
 
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1st scenerio being that i'm alone or have my wife with me, I would get to safety and make sure my family is out of harms way, of course my wife or myself would call 911 next. What to do next is interesting, first thought would be self preservation, besides my family needs a father/husband, I am the primary provider and protector and need to be around to continue doing so for as long as I can. But thinking of all the possible victims inside turns my stomach. Being armed and not attempting to help in some manner doesn't seem right. We all lobby for the 2nd amendment and the right to carry and we speak about wanting the oppurtunity do defend ourselves and our fellow citizens. This would be the time if ever there was one. Now I would never choose to go up against AR-15's with just a handgun, but think of all the people in the mall who are completely unarmed. At least we have a fighting chance. Dont get me wrong I am NOT thinking of getting into an open shootout against longarms, I would conceil myself and look for the oppurtunities to take shots and save lifes. And for the record I am not trying to be any type of hero, I am the farthest thing from it and surely I'd be scared to death. But the only thing that scares me more, would be to do nothing. I dont think i could face my family or live with myself for that matter. And as far as waiting for the cops to arrive, forget it. By the time they get there it will be all over, besides they wont enter the mall knowing the BG's have AR-15's. Theyll wait outside till it turns into a hostage situation or the BG have finished their shooting spree then commited suicide.

2nd scenerio, family is on other end, I would call my wifes cell asked they got to safety, if not I would go get em, either by exiting the mall an entering thru another entrance or by running in and out of stores. Somehow I would make every attempt to save my family. If it meant coordinating with my wife to run to safety while I engage the BG' into a firefight to distract them so be it. If I dont attempt to protect my family no matter the odds then i dont deserve one, much less a gun.

I guess I will never really know unless it were to happen, hope it never does, I just hope I'm able to think straight if it does.

I shouldnt be up this late, I start ramblin, goodnight all.
 
Many departments have change procedures in active shooter cases. In the last mall shooter in Washington state, they formed up and went after the shooter quickly.

However, not to beat a dead horse, the scenario is more complicated than whether you charge in.

I specifically wanted to focus on how you deal with seeing someone unlimbered a long arm and heading for the mall also.

What if the person in question looks like a group that you might think is more likely to be terrorist? There is a large literature now on racial factors in LEO shootings and civilian evaluations of violence based on race.
 
my wife (you meant girlfriend, right?) is at the other end of the mall with her kid? these bozo's with the ar-s would be dead already, or she would be... ain't NOBODY endangering her kids unless she's dead already... and i feel sorry for anyone who tries endangering them while she is still breathing...
 
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