my Arisaka ... help me
- Thread starter Bohb
- Start date
FrankenMauser
New member
BobH: For the record, the quoted method is not recommended or considered safe.
It is a minority opinion, given to you by a stranger on the internet.
Even if you ignore the concept of making sure the rifle is mechanically sound and safe to fire...
One of the basic rules of firearm safety is, "Only fire ammunition that matches the markings on the firearm."
Since this firearm is still an unknown, no ammunition should be fired until the chamber can be verified.
Make your own choices. Take on a level of risk that you are comfortable with.
I've done some pretty stupid things, but pulling the trigger of a surplus rifle with an unknown history while not knowing its condition or actual chambering is not something that will ever make the list.
If the serial number doesn't have a 00 in front if it, the rife wasn't 'retired,' and was probably recovered in working shape. Now try to remember what dad has been doing with it for the past couple decades... If the rifle locks up solidly when you feed a round into it, you're probably okay. If it's been reamed out to a longer cartridge, you will probably hear rattling. If your pops never shot that much, he probably didn't have it re-chambered.
Having a gun smith look it over is ok, but most of them don't have go/no go gauges for Arisakas and they'll probably just make sure there's no cracks in wood or metal. BTW, the crack down the middle of the butt stock is a dove-tailed split. The Japanese built their stocks from two pieces of wood to make selection and manufacturer easier.
edit to add more random thoughts: If the ammo question is a question going forward, I'd stick to the 140 grain choice as it is closer to the 139 that the Type 38 shot and the flat base will give more contact area to engage the lower metford rifling. The rifling isn't worn out, it's just cut to a lower profile.
Happy shooting.
d47
Having a gun smith look it over is ok, but most of them don't have go/no go gauges for Arisakas and they'll probably just make sure there's no cracks in wood or metal. BTW, the crack down the middle of the butt stock is a dove-tailed split. The Japanese built their stocks from two pieces of wood to make selection and manufacturer easier.
edit to add more random thoughts: If the ammo question is a question going forward, I'd stick to the 140 grain choice as it is closer to the 139 that the Type 38 shot and the flat base will give more contact area to engage the lower metford rifling. The rifling isn't worn out, it's just cut to a lower profile.
Happy shooting.
d47
All Type 38 rifles will fail a cartridge gauge test as the current gauges was much smaller than the oversized chamber the rifle was made with . Fire forming cases is a standard way to make a case . You can fire a whole box of 6.5mm Jap ammo in a 6.5mm Roberts rechamber with nothing happening but the shoulder moving forward . The extractor will hold a shorter round tight enough that nothing will " rattle around " and set it off .
jimmy lowboy
Inactive
I have a type I in 6.5 jap rifle, also a type 38 in 6.5 jap, I also have a type 38 in 6.5 Roberts. These two cartridges are not even close to being interchangeable.The headspace of the Roberts is almost a quarter inch longer than the original jap 6.5 cartridge. Additionally the web diameter is about 20-25 thousandths smaller on the Japanese brass. This combination would require some very good brass to fill this gap without failing. Another point would be that there are many type 38 trainer rifles that are made of cast iron and not meant to fire live ammunition, only blanks. I have a bolt from one and it is very crude and roughly made . Your pics do not seem to be of a trainer, but the chamber needs to be verified . I believe that they can be rechambered to .260 rem. but may not feed well from the mag.Good luck with this project, find the proper ammo and range test your prize.
The rifle has already been identified as a Kokura series 22 Type 38 rifle , it is clearly not a trainer . I did not say the two cartridges were interchangeable or exactly the same , just that he could fire one without a problem . In my 25 years of collecting over 300 Arisaka rifles [ a few more than 3 ] I have seen it done many times with no problems .
FrankenMauser
New member
A co-worker said something similar to me, once ... about drinking and driving.
He's dead now. Single vehicle roll-over, late at night. Truck ended up upside-down in a tree, with severe wounds to the man's head and neck. He bled out before he could be cut out of the truck.
It wasn't even his truck. He had borrowed it, because his car and keys were at another bar, from the night before.
Brings to mind common sayings:
"It's always in the last place you look." -- Yea, because you stop looking after that!
"I always get it on the last try." -- Yep. Because you stop trying after that!
And, notably, "I wouldn't be doing it, if it was a problem." -- Uh huh. Because once you do have a problem with a method, you stop doing it that way!
Respect the tool, or it will hurt you.
I've seen primers fail. I've seen cases fail. I've even seen catastrophic failure, first-hand (and grabbed one still-smoking, broken rifle from the shooter, so he could assess his physical condition while I looked over him for wounds to address).
Arbitrarily sticking ammunition into a rifle and firing it, just because it is "probably" correct, even though said rifles have a history of being converted to other chambers, is a game of Russian Roulette. You may win a few times - or even a hundred times. But you only have to lose once for it to matter.
tango1niner
New member
I know little about the jap rifles, but the term "last ditch" is in my head from my reading.
Last ditch rifles were produced in a "last ditch" effort to arm as many soldiers as possible and what I've read stated that many receivers were not even hardened ...
The Mum being ground off removed steel and possibly some of the hardness if they were case hardened. Hang it on the wall, go buy a Savage, Ruger, Mossberg, etc. and have fun.
Last ditch rifles were produced in a "last ditch" effort to arm as many soldiers as possible and what I've read stated that many receivers were not even hardened ...
The Mum being ground off removed steel and possibly some of the hardness if they were case hardened. Hang it on the wall, go buy a Savage, Ruger, Mossberg, etc. and have fun.
Blindstitch
New member
He doesn't have a last ditch rifle and the mum removal was done to the point of just defacing the mum not grinding or filing for days.
again, thank you guys for the advice. i can appriciate the words of caution. i will move forward , but forward with caution. should i be so lucky to come across a reputable gun-smith that can provide he knows "his stuff" with arisakas, then i'll have him look at it. i hope this isn't turning into an argument thread. i read every post, and take what all of you say quite seriously, as i am a beginner at these guns.
thank you all again!
thank you all again!
I have a chamber reamer that cuts the Japanese 6.5mm 50 to 6.5mm 257 Roberts, there is no down side to that one.
Vents, When I test fire a Japanese rifle I cover the receiver with a white town. THE REASON? Low Pressure, when the barrel is shot out the rifle will not produce enough pressure to seal the chamber around the case. When that happens soot escapes out the vent holes. When I check the towel I expect to see soot that escaped from the smoke holes.
The shoulder of the case did not move, I understand; it is a mind boggling thing. If the shoulder moved forward when fired the rear of the case would have been blown off as in case head separation.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
How does the towel trick work if you use .263 dia 139 grain bullet , small size case ammo in an early Type-38 with a .270 groove barrel . Even if the barrel is not shot out , you will get blow by . But you probably did not know the Type-38 is found with two different barrel sizes . I do not know what kind of cases you are using , but when I fire lets say a .308 win in a 30/06 chamber , the shoulder of the fired case is then mush farther up the case body then it was and the neck is much shorter . And the case head is still there . I once moved the shoulder back about 3/8 inch on some 303 cases so I could put two short bullets in the neck . They fired , reformed , I pushed the shoulder back again and fired them several more times . The shoulders had no problem moving back and forth and the head stayed on .
At one time the ammo cost more than the rifle. What to do? I chambered the rifle to 6.5mm/257 Roberts. I understand that is a lot to keep up with but we have reloaders that have to have everything new that comes out in the form of new chambers. In my opinion nothing perked-up the 6.5mm50 like chambering it to 6.5mm Roberts. And then there are dies, I have Herter die sets, C&H die sets from El Monte, California and RCBS dies.
F. Guffey
"the fired case is then 'mush?' farther up the case body and the neck is much shorter"
I have said there are a lot reloaders do not know and or understand what happens when it comes to the sequences of events between pulling the trigger and the bullet getting out of the barrel.
Every thing you have posted reinforces my belief. When the 308 W is fired in the 30/06 chamber the case does not move, the shoulder does not move and the neck of the case becomes part of case body with a hint of a shoulder.
And then there is the 303: The 303 head spaces on the rim of the case. What does that mean when you shorten the case .375"? It means you are firing cases with very short necks. And then there is the shoulder of the case, when the case has a rim the shoulder does not move, the case expands and forms to the chamber. What does that mean? It means the shoulder you finished with is not the came shoulder you started with.
What does all of this mean? It means someone is going to say it is all semantics and you will not have learned anything.
F. Guffey
plus: When the 308 W is fired in a 30/06 chamber the 308W head spaces on the shoulder/case body juncture of the 308 W case. The diameter of the case body/shoulder juncture is .014" larger in diameter than the 30/06 chamber at that point, meaning? The shooter has to size the 308 W case with the bolt when chambering,
I suggest the reloader measure before and again after, ME? I measured the diameter of the 308 W case first and then checked the diameter of the 30/06 chamber.
I could say something like "You will not believe how many smiths and reloaders tried to go from a 308W chamber to a 30/06 chamber". Anyhow, I know 6 of them, I was set up at the local gun show when a man walked up with a problem with his Mauser. He said ever time he fired it the cases were ejected with a ridge around the fired case. I told him his rifle was a 308W/7.62 NATO and then someone chambered it to a 30/06, problem! The 30/06 chamber reamer will not clean up a 308 W chamber. I offered to clean up his chamber with a 30/06 Ackley improved reamer. A 308W barrel would cost more than his rifle was worth, I offered him one of 38 8MM57 Mauser barrels I have I also offered to chamber it to 8MM06.
F. Guffey
I suggest the reloader measure before and again after, ME? I measured the diameter of the 308 W case first and then checked the diameter of the 30/06 chamber.
I could say something like "You will not believe how many smiths and reloaders tried to go from a 308W chamber to a 30/06 chamber". Anyhow, I know 6 of them, I was set up at the local gun show when a man walked up with a problem with his Mauser. He said ever time he fired it the cases were ejected with a ridge around the fired case. I told him his rifle was a 308W/7.62 NATO and then someone chambered it to a 30/06, problem! The 30/06 chamber reamer will not clean up a 308 W chamber. I offered to clean up his chamber with a 30/06 Ackley improved reamer. A 308W barrel would cost more than his rifle was worth, I offered him one of 38 8MM57 Mauser barrels I have I also offered to chamber it to 8MM06.
F. Guffey
You do not appear to understand anything I have said . The .303 cases I made had extra long necks . The mush was a mis-type of much . I never said anything about rechambering a .308 to 30/06 . When the 308 is fire-formed in the 30/06 chamber , if the shoulder does not move way up the case where the neck was , what is that shoulder looking thing on the case . So you told some guy with only 18 Mausers not to shoot some of them for no reason . I have over 1000 and all of mine fire fine . As a custom gun maker who makes bench rest rifles and custom rifles in wildcats , I have never used any gauges for chambering . I can do it with measurements , and always hit within .0005 of where I want to be . It seems like you waste a lot of extra time doing things that mean nothing . But you are very funny , My friends and I are really having fun with you comments .
ernie8, I will type slower: The 308W is too large in diameter to chamber in a 30/06 chamber meaning the 308 W case has to be sized when chambered by the bolt. The case can not move forward, we have had members claim they were shooting at competitions when they chambered 308 W in a 30/06 chamber. Most of them claimed the 30/06 chamber handled the 308 W ammo like 'driving a doll buggy'
. They also claimed accuracy was not that bad and they did not know how many they shot before they realized the problem. You should know and you should understand what would have happened if the case head left the bolt face when fired. And you should understand the difference in length between the 308W case and the 30/06. to understand the difference in length is to understand what happened to the 308 W shoulder.
I understand this stuff is beyond your comprehension, the 308 W shoulder did not move, it became part of the case body, I understand it is a mind bobbling thing but there was not enough of the case neck left to form a shoulder.
I said the cases were ejected with the hint of a shoulder.
F. Guffey
greetings all. i know its hard to believe, but i HAVE been trying all this time to find ammo for my gun. heck, at this point i would have been happy to have found even a single round for sale.
after numerous gun dealers, websites, and gun shows im happy to announce that by the end of this week, i have one box of 20 rounds ( that i paid WAY to much for ) . the only question i have for anyone reading this with some knowledge of Arisakas is: i could only locate some ammo with a 120 grain count (6.5x50 SP 2500fps) . how should i expect this round to perform?
my first shot i will be using the "string and tire" method, while hiding behind a tree. im VERY excited to finally, finally be able to shoot this gun. i will let everyone know how it goes. tbanks again for all your help!
after numerous gun dealers, websites, and gun shows im happy to announce that by the end of this week, i have one box of 20 rounds ( that i paid WAY to much for ) . the only question i have for anyone reading this with some knowledge of Arisakas is: i could only locate some ammo with a 120 grain count (6.5x50 SP 2500fps) . how should i expect this round to perform?
my first shot i will be using the "string and tire" method, while hiding behind a tree. im VERY excited to finally, finally be able to shoot this gun. i will let everyone know how it goes. tbanks again for all your help!
I would expect it to fire and deliver the approximate velocity advertised. Everything beyond that is going to be determined by the relationship between your specific rifle (especially barrel) and the ammo used.
The Japanese military load was a 139gr bullet at approx. 2500fps.
There have never been any commercial sporting rifles chambered for this round. Cartridge dimensions mean brass is not easily or readily made from any of the more common rounds.
Norma used to make some in small quantities, but with the current situation (covid, etc) I have no idea if any is available. (and, it was never cheap, even before the ammo price panic...)
I will suggest you wrap (loosely) the action with paper, when you fire that first round via a string from a safe distance. IF any gas comes out, the paper will show you about where it came from.
Bore size on the guns is known to vary and some "standard' 6.5mm slugs may be undersize for the bore you have. IF so, you could get gas " blow by" the bullet and some of that gas can escape the action in the direction of the shooter. Even after testing, ALWAYS wear good shooting glasses when firing one. ALWAYS!!
Good Luck!
Be SAFE!!