My ALASKAN friends…..
- Thread starter FNMAUSER
- Start date
FNMAUSER I never said the .30-06 is more popular, but you should go read the "what to bring" portion of Grizzly Skins of Alaska's web site. The owner of that operation is Phil Shoemaker, he posts on a ton of forums as .458 Win. He always recommends a .30-06 if that's what a hunter shoots the best, he carried a .30-06 for several years while guiding as well as many other larger bore rifles. Plus when I hunted Petersburg I did see plenty of .30-06 ammunition on the shelf in the stores that sold ammunition, some one must be buying it.
All I ever said was I used a .30-06 and .375 JDJ in Alaska, and I said that your ideas SD and lethality were not something I agreed with. You quoted two references from writers who are fond of using larger bore rifles. Those two writers are romanticist stuck in the late 19th early 20th century when you didn't have a lot of different bullet constructions and designs when high SD bullets did have the higher BC.
I used your 250 grain Woodleigh bullet and compared it to a 180 grain Nosler Partition. I did that to show you that the bullet with the lower SD but higher BC retained more speed and energy over a longer distance. Which isn't what your writers are saying as they are saying there is a direct correlation between SD and BC. I simply was trying to show that the two were not the same and that the lower SD bullet was actually the one retaining more speed and energy. You simply said I proved your point, but I recommend you go play on a site like JBM ballistics and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I realize that I skirted around "momentum" as I'm trying to use KISS. While I realize hitting an object with a Semi at 60 MPH has more momentum than a Civic at 80 MPH, a Ford F350 at 70 MPH might be the happy medium.
I tend to think bullet construction first, matching it to the game I want to shoot Then what velocity window it works at best in and if I can achieve that with my cartridge choice. Finally how long that window remains open with my chosen cartridge gives me the effective range of my bullet. Momentum that's above my physics pay grade, and I found as long as I pay attention to my three things and make a decent shot I can kill anything I want to.
Plus my original point was if you kill 10 animals in a row using only one bullet with an 8mm bullet and kill 10 identical animals with a .308 caliber or any other caliber bullet of smaller diameter with one bullet, how can the 8 mm bullet be more lethal? I mean are the animals take with the 8 mm bullet somehow more dead? If you can prove that with hard data and not opinion then I might buy into the "higher SD equals more lethal" argument.
All I ever said was I used a .30-06 and .375 JDJ in Alaska, and I said that your ideas SD and lethality were not something I agreed with. You quoted two references from writers who are fond of using larger bore rifles. Those two writers are romanticist stuck in the late 19th early 20th century when you didn't have a lot of different bullet constructions and designs when high SD bullets did have the higher BC.
FNMAUSER said:
I used your 250 grain Woodleigh bullet and compared it to a 180 grain Nosler Partition. I did that to show you that the bullet with the lower SD but higher BC retained more speed and energy over a longer distance. Which isn't what your writers are saying as they are saying there is a direct correlation between SD and BC. I simply was trying to show that the two were not the same and that the lower SD bullet was actually the one retaining more speed and energy. You simply said I proved your point, but I recommend you go play on a site like JBM ballistics and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I realize that I skirted around "momentum" as I'm trying to use KISS. While I realize hitting an object with a Semi at 60 MPH has more momentum than a Civic at 80 MPH, a Ford F350 at 70 MPH might be the happy medium.
I tend to think bullet construction first, matching it to the game I want to shoot Then what velocity window it works at best in and if I can achieve that with my cartridge choice. Finally how long that window remains open with my chosen cartridge gives me the effective range of my bullet. Momentum that's above my physics pay grade, and I found as long as I pay attention to my three things and make a decent shot I can kill anything I want to.
Plus my original point was if you kill 10 animals in a row using only one bullet with an 8mm bullet and kill 10 identical animals with a .308 caliber or any other caliber bullet of smaller diameter with one bullet, how can the 8 mm bullet be more lethal? I mean are the animals take with the 8 mm bullet somehow more dead? If you can prove that with hard data and not opinion then I might buy into the "higher SD equals more lethal" argument.
Phil Shoemaker...
Leaving out "momentum" is to not understand the theory of those who profess the benefits of larger caliber firearms.
I'm VERY familiar with Phil Shoemaker..
Phil Shoemaker knows MOST lower 48 hunters don't have the need for the big bores; most lower 48 hunters use the 30-06 and .308.
I know you read this but seem to want to leave it out, possibly to make your point (?)…I don't know…BUT…
Phi Shoemaker is like all guides up here. They believe you bring to Alaska the most comfortable firearm you are most familiar with…that means, if you most often shoot, are familiar and comfortable with your own firearm of choice…it's better to hunt with that than attempt the bigger bore rifles we have up here. You'll be better able to hit your game. It's a matter, TO PHIL SHOEMAKER, of hitting your game and not leaving them wander off wounded...Phil Shoemakers is very clear on that!
AND…Phil Shoemaker also makes his point in that same writing, that he ALWAYS packs a big bore to dispatch what his clients fail to drop!!!!! As an Alaskan guide (http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com), Phil wrote that he has utilized many different rifles and calibers. Phil's words... "When you are confronted by a BIG BEAR, use big bores".
I echo'd THAT SAME philosophy in my post #16! Restated, I said:
BUT…a hunter up here, a seasoned hunter, can handle the larger bore rifles just as well as a lower 48 hunter handles his 30-06…THAT IS REALLY THE KEY HERE….
Leaving out "momentum" is to not understand the theory of those who profess the benefits of larger caliber firearms.
I'm VERY familiar with Phil Shoemaker..
Phil Shoemaker knows MOST lower 48 hunters don't have the need for the big bores; most lower 48 hunters use the 30-06 and .308.
I know you read this but seem to want to leave it out, possibly to make your point (?)…I don't know…BUT…
Phi Shoemaker is like all guides up here. They believe you bring to Alaska the most comfortable firearm you are most familiar with…that means, if you most often shoot, are familiar and comfortable with your own firearm of choice…it's better to hunt with that than attempt the bigger bore rifles we have up here. You'll be better able to hit your game. It's a matter, TO PHIL SHOEMAKER, of hitting your game and not leaving them wander off wounded...Phil Shoemakers is very clear on that!
AND…Phil Shoemaker also makes his point in that same writing, that he ALWAYS packs a big bore to dispatch what his clients fail to drop!!!!! As an Alaskan guide (http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com), Phil wrote that he has utilized many different rifles and calibers. Phil's words... "When you are confronted by a BIG BEAR, use big bores".
I echo'd THAT SAME philosophy in my post #16! Restated, I said:
BUT…a hunter up here, a seasoned hunter, can handle the larger bore rifles just as well as a lower 48 hunter handles his 30-06…THAT IS REALLY THE KEY HERE….
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People have a lot of misconceptions about hunting in Alaska.
First a huge majority of people live on the road network, which covers a small percent of the land mass.
So most of the hunting is done on or along that road network. In short it sucks. Poor hunter/animal ratio.
To successfully hunt in Alaska requires money. Money to fly out, or money for water craft. Even the rivers are crowded during hunting season.
I'm not buying that one bit. Hunters in Alaska are like hunters everywhere else. They are hunters, not shooters.
An example, I ran the AKNG Marksmanship Program. The NG has their Championships (Wilson Matches in AR) during Aug-Sept. Which is about the same time people start getting ready for hunting season.
The NG shooters spend a lot of time on the range in prep for the Championships. They are shooting alone side potential hunters getting "sighted in". And like most hunters in the lower 48, this is the only time they fire their rifles all year. Most of them have difficulties getting sighted in. I encouraged my shooters to assist them where they could. Its no different then Sight In Days in the Lower 48, even here in Wyoming, (percentage wise Wyoming has more gun ownership the anywhere in the country). I work the sight in days here for our club, Same thing as in Alaska, and every where else.
In short, most hunters cant handle heavy magnums. Most hunters don't shoot enough with their '06/270/etc to really be proficient. Doubt me, its easy to check out. Go to your local range during the pre hunting sight in days.
There are exceptions. There are people who can shoot anything they can pick up. Some like big guns some don't, but with this group it doesn't matter. They will be successful whether they are using a '06 or 375 H&H.
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As to the other aspect; What do natives use. They use what they could get and get free or cheap. Most of these people who live in the village have no income except for welfare or their monthly guard check. Spending money on high price guns and ammo simply isn't going to happen. That's why over the years you seen them go from ;06, to 308, to 223, depending on what the military was issuing. We, as commanders were "unofficially" encouraged to be more liberal with our policies on ammo, (remember the No Brass-No Ammo SGT). These people didn't rob liquor stores with guard ammo, they fed their family.
Not all had access to guard ammo, they bought the cheapest they could find. That's why, now you see the Mosins become so popular.
That's not a whole lot different then the lower 48 use to be. My grand father pretty much fed his family during the depression with his gun. It was also the gun he used in his part time job doing prisoner escorts for the Sheriffs office.
I have that gun, killed my first deer at 8 with it. Its not a Colt SSA or Winchester Model 94 as you would think from watching TV, no it was a single barrels 16 gages, where he could use slugs, buck, or bird shot. He loaded the brass shells with BP depending on what he needed for the day.
Was it the best gun in the job, no, but it was available, something he could afford and he knew how to use it.
In short, Alaska isn't the hunting paradise people think. And magnums are not needed to hunt Alaska. What is more important is to know how to use what you have and the amount of ammo you put down range with that rifle.
First a huge majority of people live on the road network, which covers a small percent of the land mass.
So most of the hunting is done on or along that road network. In short it sucks. Poor hunter/animal ratio.
To successfully hunt in Alaska requires money. Money to fly out, or money for water craft. Even the rivers are crowded during hunting season.
I'm not buying that one bit. Hunters in Alaska are like hunters everywhere else. They are hunters, not shooters.
An example, I ran the AKNG Marksmanship Program. The NG has their Championships (Wilson Matches in AR) during Aug-Sept. Which is about the same time people start getting ready for hunting season.
The NG shooters spend a lot of time on the range in prep for the Championships. They are shooting alone side potential hunters getting "sighted in". And like most hunters in the lower 48, this is the only time they fire their rifles all year. Most of them have difficulties getting sighted in. I encouraged my shooters to assist them where they could. Its no different then Sight In Days in the Lower 48, even here in Wyoming, (percentage wise Wyoming has more gun ownership the anywhere in the country). I work the sight in days here for our club, Same thing as in Alaska, and every where else.
In short, most hunters cant handle heavy magnums. Most hunters don't shoot enough with their '06/270/etc to really be proficient. Doubt me, its easy to check out. Go to your local range during the pre hunting sight in days.
There are exceptions. There are people who can shoot anything they can pick up. Some like big guns some don't, but with this group it doesn't matter. They will be successful whether they are using a '06 or 375 H&H.
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As to the other aspect; What do natives use. They use what they could get and get free or cheap. Most of these people who live in the village have no income except for welfare or their monthly guard check. Spending money on high price guns and ammo simply isn't going to happen. That's why over the years you seen them go from ;06, to 308, to 223, depending on what the military was issuing. We, as commanders were "unofficially" encouraged to be more liberal with our policies on ammo, (remember the No Brass-No Ammo SGT). These people didn't rob liquor stores with guard ammo, they fed their family.
Not all had access to guard ammo, they bought the cheapest they could find. That's why, now you see the Mosins become so popular.
That's not a whole lot different then the lower 48 use to be. My grand father pretty much fed his family during the depression with his gun. It was also the gun he used in his part time job doing prisoner escorts for the Sheriffs office.
I have that gun, killed my first deer at 8 with it. Its not a Colt SSA or Winchester Model 94 as you would think from watching TV, no it was a single barrels 16 gages, where he could use slugs, buck, or bird shot. He loaded the brass shells with BP depending on what he needed for the day.
Was it the best gun in the job, no, but it was available, something he could afford and he knew how to use it.
In short, Alaska isn't the hunting paradise people think. And magnums are not needed to hunt Alaska. What is more important is to know how to use what you have and the amount of ammo you put down range with that rifle.
I have a somewhat related story on Big Guns in Alaska and Natives.
I was the EO of A Co. 1/297th Inf AK ARNG. Which was on St Lawrence Island.
One of the guys was the Sr Boat Cpt. of Gamble. We got to be good friends and he tried to give me a Model 70 Win, in 458 WM. Seems he had guided a successful hunt for some people who presented him with the rifle. He was going to give it to me since he couldn't find shells unless he ordered them from Anchorage, and he couldn't afford to buy them if he found them.
I had a better idea. On the south side of an island was miles of abandoned lead core cable. I told him to go gather a bunch of that lead and I'd fix him up.
I went to a Gun Show in Anchorage and found a Used RCBS Jr press, some dies and a bullet mold in 458. Bought some powder and primers and took them back to Gamble. I had made a powder measure (scoop) to match the powder I found. I showed him how to cast the bullets, lube them with animal fat, and load the cast bullets making some fair loads.
He was a happy camper. He was on some successful whale kills with that rifle/load, and taken several walrus.
I was the EO of A Co. 1/297th Inf AK ARNG. Which was on St Lawrence Island.
One of the guys was the Sr Boat Cpt. of Gamble. We got to be good friends and he tried to give me a Model 70 Win, in 458 WM. Seems he had guided a successful hunt for some people who presented him with the rifle. He was going to give it to me since he couldn't find shells unless he ordered them from Anchorage, and he couldn't afford to buy them if he found them.
I had a better idea. On the south side of an island was miles of abandoned lead core cable. I told him to go gather a bunch of that lead and I'd fix him up.
I went to a Gun Show in Anchorage and found a Used RCBS Jr press, some dies and a bullet mold in 458. Bought some powder and primers and took them back to Gamble. I had made a powder measure (scoop) to match the powder I found. I showed him how to cast the bullets, lube them with animal fat, and load the cast bullets making some fair loads.
He was a happy camper. He was on some successful whale kills with that rifle/load, and taken several walrus.
OK….
My family is from Kake, Alaska. My family is also Native, Tlingit. I'll tell you this…no one in my family has any trouble filling their harvest tickets…deer or moose.
You are correct, hunting up here sucks…
But just to correct you….you must not have heard of "subsistence" hunting….I don't believe any other State in this country have as many people who eat what they hunt, or hunt to eat as Alaskans do!
SOMEBODY must be harvesting game! ;O
My family is from Kake, Alaska. My family is also Native, Tlingit. I'll tell you this…no one in my family has any trouble filling their harvest tickets…deer or moose.
You are correct, hunting up here sucks…
But just to correct you….you must not have heard of "subsistence" hunting….I don't believe any other State in this country have as many people who eat what they hunt, or hunt to eat as Alaskans do!SOMEBODY must be harvesting game! ;O
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tahunua001
New member
oh....my.....goodness.
ok I'm going to try bullet points because this whole conversation is just one jumbled mess of opinion, bias, and for some reason defensiveness.
1. FNmauser. you like hunting, guns, etc, same as everyone here on this board. we come here to discuss these topics and exchange ideas and viewpoints. we don't come here just to rag on the new guys. you are incredibly defensive on this topic and right off the bat started making combative remarks such as the one quoted below which never end well for anyone.
2. which brings me to the topic of alaskan game.
3. now to lethality.
that is what Taylorce was trying to tell you and you were so defensive you thought he was just bashing your favorite cartridge.
4. ballistics. 8mms do not have amazing ballistic coefficients. taylorce did a very good job of describing ballistic coefficients and sectional densities and I'm not in the mood to beat that dead horse. you can try to deny it all you want but at your 300 yard maximum threshold that you have repeatedly quoted in this thread, 323s have a lot of drop, you can get a 220gr sierra game king with a very good ballistic coefficient of about .521 but from anything but a 8mm rem mag the bullet is traveling so slow that it will still have considerable drop. that is why non-intermediate 30 calibers are far more popular because they are a very good "compromise diameter" where you still get decent ballistic coefficients, decent projectile weight and many cartridges can propel the projectile at a decent velocity.
5. local preferences.
and now to something completely off topic, for this board.
6. local demographics.
your family is Tlingit, this is completely irrelevent to what eskimos use, eskimo refering to the Inupiaq and Yupik peoples of the far north which actually hunt in the far north and know a thing or two about large canadian/alaskan game.
ok I'm going to try bullet points because this whole conversation is just one jumbled mess of opinion, bias, and for some reason defensiveness.
1. FNmauser. you like hunting, guns, etc, same as everyone here on this board. we come here to discuss these topics and exchange ideas and viewpoints. we don't come here just to rag on the new guys. you are incredibly defensive on this topic and right off the bat started making combative remarks such as the one quoted below which never end well for anyone.
my remarks for 30-06 had nothing to do with it being a magical cartridge or anything else. my remarks were geared at the fact that it can, and has for over a century now, been used to kill anything in all 50 states, even your big and bad Alaska game.
please cite your statistics here. fish and game hunting reports, surveys, published data of any kind that doesn't come from 8mms-r-us.com
2. which brings me to the topic of alaskan game.
I never said there wasn't. in fact yours are larger than what we have in the lower 48, but I'll guarantee you that they have been taken with much smaller calibers than 8mms.
well you're not supposed to shoot them in the rear anyway. we have moose too, I've even been swimming in the same watering hole as them and my sister has been charged before... I know a little about moose, they may not get as large down here as they do up there but they are deer... that's all, just big big deer and any gun I would trust to kill an Elk(another big big deer) I would also trust to kill a moose, 30-06 would be plenty in that regard.
again I'm going to need to see some documentation, citations, etc. most everything is bigger and badder in AK but I have a hard time wrapping my head around western black bear reaching that size. eastern black bear(different subspecies) occasionally get that large but the largest I have ever heard of a western black bear was one taken in MT a couple years back that was about 500 pounds. grizzlys, browns, kodiaks, polarbear all are very large species and all native to AK and all regularly get well above 650LBs and citing them instead of monster blackbear would have gone a long way toward lending credence to your claims instead of gigantic blackies.
my farts smell like fine scotch and Cuban cigar smoke... really it's a fact, you can accept it or you can't. show me the documentation.
3. now to lethality.
you can give a feller a 50bmg, surely it's way more lethal than even .323s, but if he's flinching every shot, that animal is still going to be maimed, and run off and die in agony some place because the shooter missed the heart. if you can handle the recoil of a .323 or a 9.3 or whatever else you like, then that's great but if a person is not tolerant of recoil, you don't give them a 8mm mauser that still has the steel butt plate and expect them not to develop a flinch and botch their shots. when speaking of lethality, hunters do not have the luxury of removing the human element, same goes for discussions on accuracy, and methodology. sure a person can easily hike 7 miles into the bush and shoot a 1200 pound bison, but is that person going to even come close to packing out all that meat by themselves? sure a rifle is capable of shooting 1/4 inch groups at 100 meters, does that mean that the person holding the rifle can come anywhere near that level of stability and precision?
that is what Taylorce was trying to tell you and you were so defensive you thought he was just bashing your favorite cartridge.
4. ballistics. 8mms do not have amazing ballistic coefficients. taylorce did a very good job of describing ballistic coefficients and sectional densities and I'm not in the mood to beat that dead horse. you can try to deny it all you want but at your 300 yard maximum threshold that you have repeatedly quoted in this thread, 323s have a lot of drop, you can get a 220gr sierra game king with a very good ballistic coefficient of about .521 but from anything but a 8mm rem mag the bullet is traveling so slow that it will still have considerable drop. that is why non-intermediate 30 calibers are far more popular because they are a very good "compromise diameter" where you still get decent ballistic coefficients, decent projectile weight and many cartridges can propel the projectile at a decent velocity.
5. local preferences.
get out more, try moving farther north. it is well established that 22 calibers are very popular among eskimos. just because none in your little community that you know use them does not mean that none of them do. statistics is a wonderful thing. for instance. 27% of all M&Ms are blue, I bet you didn't know that, but I have opened fun sized bags of M&Ms that were 100% blue, no special promotions or anything, just all blue M&Ms in a single package. based on that one sample size a person could state that all M&Ms are blue and cite their personal observations but we all know that is not true because us, being the fat, candy loving, lower 48ers that we are, know that there are indeed, red, yellow, green, orange and brown M&Ms in addition to blue. larger sample sizes always allow for a smaller margin of error. your personal friends make of a tiny percentage of the eskimo community in a single isolated area, they do not constitute an accurate sample portion of the community as a whole.
and now to something completely off topic, for this board.
6. local demographics.
kake is nearly in the southernmost tip of alaska. I highly doubt that you have ever seen a polar bear and are no more qualified to speak for their size temperment, and the tools necessary to hunt them and anyone else on this board.
your family is Tlingit, this is completely irrelevent to what eskimos use, eskimo refering to the Inupiaq and Yupik peoples of the far north which actually hunt in the far north and know a thing or two about large canadian/alaskan game.
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My, my...
Who's defensive? YOU quoted Phil Shoemaker for the forum but left out his more critical points…points that express my writing here…yet you believed no one here would catch that little Faux Pas???
That one put a smile on my face
You really should either:
1) move up here and learn something rather than, "I hunted in Petersburg…once"!
2) don't be so lazy, do your research about Alaska, 'cause you really don't know a thing about what goes on up here or how subsistence life works.
3) Like an old wash woman, you can have the last word…seems like you need that.
For those who know, no explanation is needed, for those who don't…no explanation is possible.
Done here with you….
Who's defensive? YOU quoted Phil Shoemaker for the forum but left out his more critical points…points that express my writing here…yet you believed no one here would catch that little Faux Pas???
That one put a smile on my face
You really should either:
1) move up here and learn something rather than, "I hunted in Petersburg…once"!
2) don't be so lazy, do your research about Alaska, 'cause you really don't know a thing about what goes on up here or how subsistence life works.
3) Like an old wash woman, you can have the last word…seems like you need that.
For those who know, no explanation is needed, for those who don't…no explanation is possible.
Done here with you….
tahunua001
New member
please enlighten me as to my tactless and embarrassing remark? I really am at a loss there. please realize I was trying to quote an entire page of bickering in a single post. some condensation was necessary.
Most of your statements don't interest me with a qualified response…but just because you asked for this, I'll post it to show readers that your skepticism and erroneous assumptions about what goes on up here in alaska…
Here you go, ENJOY!
THE SIZE OF BLACK BEAR UP HERE! http://alaskablackbearhunts.com/bea...rs-charters-trips-lodges-hunting-craig-AK.php
Here you go, ENJOY!
THE SIZE OF BLACK BEAR UP HERE! http://alaskablackbearhunts.com/bea...rs-charters-trips-lodges-hunting-craig-AK.php
tahunua001
New member
all I see on that site is skull size and length... where are the weights? what about the overwhelming number that were shot with .323s? I'm not trying to be a jerk here but I must say that it is rare to see a new member that is as condescending as you have been throughout this thread.
only one of those bears, one on the larger spectrum has a weight posted, 375 pounds, about 2/3 the size you are claiming to be average. only one of those bears has a cartridge taken with, 270 weatherby. your data which is supposed to be showing my remarks as erroneous seems to actually be strengthening my arguments from this side of the interwebs.
wait I stand corrected, another was taken with a 338, no cartridge given.
only one of those bears, one on the larger spectrum has a weight posted, 375 pounds, about 2/3 the size you are claiming to be average. only one of those bears has a cartridge taken with, 270 weatherby. your data which is supposed to be showing my remarks as erroneous seems to actually be strengthening my arguments from this side of the interwebs.
wait I stand corrected, another was taken with a 338, no cartridge given.
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As one up here knows, black bear are large. Hunted in their habitat, they are not near roads to be easily weighed. Seasons matter, Blacks weigh less in Spring after coming out of hibernation, than they do fattened up going into hibernation around October. But by the measurements, weight estimation is calculated. If you get a chance, and fly into Juneau Alaska, there is a black bear on display, harvested by a friend of mine. It is weighed out and documented at 637 pounds. It was taken near my home of Kake, Alaska….it is very common for lower 48 hunters to be guided on Kuiu Island for blacks, guides are from my home…I know this, so taking the 500 pound-600 pound blacks….nothing new up here for us!
If you had spent any time in Petersburg, Alaska as you claim…you would know Kuiu Island, across the bay from Kake, Alaska is home to the largest black bear in Alaska ranging on the large size from 500-650 pounds.
Again, stop trying to be soon fed…research the calculations.
Oh, just for grins & giggles, here is a Field & Stream opinion on what caliber to hunt with in Alaska:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2013/05/which-rifle-bring-alaska
OK..NOW I'm done.
If you had spent any time in Petersburg, Alaska as you claim…you would know Kuiu Island, across the bay from Kake, Alaska is home to the largest black bear in Alaska ranging on the large size from 500-650 pounds.
Again, stop trying to be soon fed…research the calculations.
Oh, just for grins & giggles, here is a Field & Stream opinion on what caliber to hunt with in Alaska:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2013/05/which-rifle-bring-alaska
OK..NOW I'm done.
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tahunua001
New member
show me one time I claimed to have been to petersburg... you appear to be confusing me with another member.
magazine articles, especially those fluff pieces are far from credible sources. I once read an article on mausers. fellow claimed he bought a 100% original SS stamped mauser 98 from mitchells mausers in mint condition, anyone that has even dabbled in mausers knows that mitchells is an outfit that refurbishes and sometimes falsifies stamps on their guns.
another instance of misinformation, a writup I read on the S&W governor claimed that halfmoon clips were available for the pistol, no such device, be it OEM or aftermarket has ever been released for that pistol.
once read another article claiming PRVI made diameter specific ammunition for the 6.5mm carcano which is .004 larger than all other 6.5mm cartridges but anytime someone takes calipers to the PRVI stuff, it always comes out the standard .264 diameter instead of .268 like the magazine claimed...
the garbage that is put in magazines in anything but credible.
magazine articles, especially those fluff pieces are far from credible sources. I once read an article on mausers. fellow claimed he bought a 100% original SS stamped mauser 98 from mitchells mausers in mint condition, anyone that has even dabbled in mausers knows that mitchells is an outfit that refurbishes and sometimes falsifies stamps on their guns.
another instance of misinformation, a writup I read on the S&W governor claimed that halfmoon clips were available for the pistol, no such device, be it OEM or aftermarket has ever been released for that pistol.
once read another article claiming PRVI made diameter specific ammunition for the 6.5mm carcano which is .004 larger than all other 6.5mm cartridges but anytime someone takes calipers to the PRVI stuff, it always comes out the standard .264 diameter instead of .268 like the magazine claimed...
the garbage that is put in magazines in anything but credible.
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wild willy
New member
The largest black bears in the world are in Pa.Do a little research weight wise thety are twice as big as anything you posted
FNMAUSER said:
I never "quoted" Phil Shoemaker, I simply used him as a referenced and even linked his web page. However since you'd like a quote from him, here you go:
tahunua001 said:
I'll handle this one since basically he talking about me but so frustrated he can't get his thoughts straight.
FNMAUSER said:
I'd love to move up there, however I love my wife more and she has no desire to live up there. Plus I've been to Petersburg hunting twice though I've never claimed that made me the resident forum expert on Alaska. I did shoot a nice bear on a salt flat, my buddy took a slightly smaller but just as nice black bear the next day. I did all this without a guide just me and a buddy in a 16 ft. flat bottom boat with a 25 hp outboard motor. Nothing special a true DIY hunt, which I did again about four years ago, didn't find a bear bigger than the one I had so I didn't need to shoot another. We did however kill a wolf with a .325 WSM (which is an 8mm BTW), and that was pretty cool.
FNMAUSER said:
Well at last I have a little bit of a clue since I hunted the exact island (Kupreanof) you live on. Unfortunately I never made it to Kuiu where the good bear hunting is supposed to be. I do know that your "big" moose are Shiras, the smallest subspecies of moose in America. They happen to be the same one that we have in Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho and Montana. They are bigger than the local elk but they aren't all that big when compared to the AK/Yukon moose.
As far as subsistence hunting goes you're right I don't have a clue and I'm not ashamed to admit it. However the game I do kill winds up in my freezer, except the bear I shot in AK as it was far to expensive to ship down so I donated it to some locals who were very happy to receive it. Since I shot it in very early May and had to recover the meat.
My question is how does subsistence hunting have anything to do with the bullet discussion we are/were having?
FNMAUSER said:
My question is what do you really know? You obviously don't know much about SD, BC and lethality. However, if you can really come up with a better argument than you've tried on how a .015" bigger diameter is more lethal than a .015" smaller diameter bullet I'm all ears.
FNMAUSER said:
That's okay, I'm still waiting to hear your reply.
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You don't live here, you hunted here twice, you have no idea what "subsistence hunting" is so you have no idea how it pertains to getting game but you sure have an opinion about something you admit your ignorant of.. so what's your point. How about you go back under that rock…
You have no ground for argument or discussion.
Adios.
You have no ground for argument or discussion.
Adios.
How does subsistence hunting apply to bore diameter and SD, or ballistics in general? That was never the basis for your opening arguement of the lethality of the 8 mm bore. I don't have your personal experience but that doesn't mean I don't have experience of my own. That doesn't make your experience better than mine, but just different from yours.
My best suggestion to you is take a step back emotionally, collect your thoughts and come back with a valid argument with hard data. Then we can have a serious discussion on how rounds kill.
My best suggestion to you is take a step back emotionally, collect your thoughts and come back with a valid argument with hard data. Then we can have a serious discussion on how rounds kill.
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tahunua001
New member
you keep saying that subsistence hunting is completely different from normal hunting. perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us? normally when subsistence hunting is brought up, people are talking about desperate people during the depression out hunting with 22lrs to feed their families. but apparently now it means something completely different. your reasons for hunting is completely beside the point and completely irrelevant to the conversation which was started by claims of superior lethality for .323 caliber cartridges.
one shot one kill is still the rule of the land regardless of whether you are hunting in order to feed your family or for sport. obviously you have internet connectivity so I'm not inclined to think that you are in a position in which one lost animal here and there would be a death sentence for your family, so why are you so agitated over this subject and why are you constantly raging about us knowing nothing about hunting when we've never been hunting for subsistence?
for the record, I grew up in a household with 5 children, and a father with a crippling head injury. there was no money. so yes, for several years we lived on subsistence hunting and we kept a very large garden. but apparently, since it wasn't in AK I know nothing about subsistence hunting.
one shot one kill is still the rule of the land regardless of whether you are hunting in order to feed your family or for sport. obviously you have internet connectivity so I'm not inclined to think that you are in a position in which one lost animal here and there would be a death sentence for your family, so why are you so agitated over this subject and why are you constantly raging about us knowing nothing about hunting when we've never been hunting for subsistence?
for the record, I grew up in a household with 5 children, and a father with a crippling head injury. there was no money. so yes, for several years we lived on subsistence hunting and we kept a very large garden. but apparently, since it wasn't in AK I know nothing about subsistence hunting.
Here is some hard data…for those who believe a .308 or 30-06 will do….
Look forward to this when you get here….a BIG BORE will come in handy, trust me: NOW DEFEND THAT CALIBER
http://unofficialnetworks.com/2014/11/watch-mountain-biker-chased-by-giant-bear
Look forward to this when you get here….a BIG BORE will come in handy, trust me: NOW DEFEND THAT CALIBER
http://unofficialnetworks.com/2014/11/watch-mountain-biker-chased-by-giant-bear