My ALASKAN friends…..

F

FNMAUSER

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A subject came up about what caliber rifles are used most and for what game, up here in Alaska!

Considering the three most likely terrain hunts, NOT TROPHY, but food on the table hunts….WHAT CALIBER RIFLES ARE WE ALL USING up here?

Should be an interesting, and informative thread. ;)

I'll start with mine: I'm in SE Alaska. I hunt mostly open field of fire muskegs for deer and moose and then tight brush/woodland for same.

For woodland, I use an 8mm FN Mauser carbine and load 250 grain Woodleigh RNSN. Good enough for deer & moose.

For open muskeg firing lane hunting, I'll take out my K98 AND my 9.3x62 BRNO Mod 21 for deer, moose and black bear. The K98 is loaded with the same 250 grain Woodleigh but the extra 6+ inches of barrel opens up the FPS by 300+! The 9.3x62, I mostly shoot 285 grain PPU, but when in Brown bear country, I load her with 320 grain Woodleighs.




Jim "FNmauser"
 
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FN, it sounds like you sure love your metrics. ;) I like em because not everybody and their brother has one. Is your 8mm an 8x57 or something bigger? If it is x57, what kind of fps are you getting with those big bullets? Just curious, thanks.
 
You bet!

littlephil…I do enjoy my metrics…and besides their history and the genius of design for more than 100 years, the lethality under 300 yards with non-magnum-like recoil makes them excellent tools in hunting up here.

Yes, all my Mausers (both Belgian & German) are 8mm. The Czech BRNO Model 21 is 9.3x62 and that too, is a medium firearm, with less recoil than a magnum yet has the velocity on the lower side of the .375 H&H.

FPS? Well, depends on the ammo makers, self loads, and bullet size. Take the US commercial 8mm stuff….out of my FN carbine (18" barrel)…I see muzzle velocities between 1950 FPS (with PPU 196gr) to 2200 FPS (Winchester 170gr). From my 23" K98 barrel, PPU 196 2200 FPS and 2400 FPS from the Winchester 170 gr. As you can see, American commercially loaded 8mm IS WEAK!!!!!

I shoot FN 1963/64 197gr FMJ military ammo out of my FN Carbine at 2350 FPS. European loaded ammo has been best out of my carbine. That Carbine's 18" barrel reduces the muzzle velocity significantlythan from my K98's 23" barrel.

Now self loading, with Woodleigh's 170gr Hydrostatically Stabilized, the FN Carbine ENJOYS 2650FPS!

I'm currently loading my 8mm with Woodleigh's 250gr RNSN. Get back to you on FPS with that one.
 
Wow, I always heard that the domestic ammo was weak, but good grief! I'll have to see what kind of bullets I can find when I get my mauser together. Thanks for the info FN!
 
not from alaska but I hunt somewhat similar, if not milder terrain. generally I hunt deer with a 243 winchester and elk with 300 weatherby magnum. however in recent years I've switched things up and have been taking a number of oddballs out hunting. I've killed black bear with 6.5x50 japanese from an arisaka type 44 carbine, whitetail with a 9mm AR15 setup. had intended to hunt elk with a 1895 mannlicher carbine in 8x56R but the thing is so inaccurate and prone to keyhole that I just stuck with the weatherby. this year I almost exclusively hunted with a 6.5 grendel setup, got my deer, never saw an elk to test it on though. moose around here is a once in a lifetime hunt so I don't even bother putting in for the tags, I only apply for tags with a high chance of getting drawn which around here is an extra whitetail(antlerless) and cow elk tag, everything else I don't mess with.
 
Mausers

Mausers are great for shooting heavier grain ammo. The twist rate in K98's is 1:9, VERY conducive to heavy grain ammo…I'm expecting better accuracy from the 250gr Woodleigh's. But as it stands now, my K98, SCOPED, gets <1 MOA at 100 yards. I've taken that out to 200 yards and it stays at <1 MOA with 2" groups at the 200 yard mark. I know I can improve that with better technique and more practice…no doubt. Thats using a Leupold 2-7X28….I've upgraded that scope to the 2-8X33 Leupold.


I'm not complaining about that….wasn't looking for sniper capability in these old MILSURPS, but it seems my Minute of Deer/Moose/Black bear is more than adequate! ;)

FNmauser
 
Mauser?

littlephil….what MAUSER are you putting together?

In my opinion, I don't sweat the FPS from these Mausers….they can kill with much more lethality than the 30-06 below 300 yards…not my words, the opinion of the experts…it's above the 300 yard range that 30-06 picks up the advantage…… .3006 vs a .323 grained bullet. But "dead" it "dead" so it really matters not!

As long as you are striking that game above 1800 FPS in that range, an elk, moose or black bear will go down.

FNmauser
 
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dunno, unless you're hunting bison, more lethality than 30-06 isn't really necessary and marksmanship becomes more important than power in my personal and less than humble opinion.
 
An opinion

So many rave about the 30-06 like it's the "magical" round.

It's a fact….323 IS more lethal than the 30-06 under 300 yards and MOST game is taken between 100 to 200 yards. And YES…there are Bison up here in Alaska, AND BIG ASS Moose, 650+ pound Black bear AND not to mention, THE BROWNIES!!!

You can accept that or not, but those are the facts! ;)

Can make a difference between the need for a second round into your game…or not. But a 250gr 8mm round under 300 yards will knock the game's dick in the dirt.
 
FN, I've got a k.kale turk that has the barrel cut back to about 24.5 inches. I pulled the barrel and cleaned up the action with files. Next I'll put the barrel back on and get some headspace gauges to make sure all is well. It's gonna be a slow process after the barrel is back on though, as I've been off work for a while and a callback isn't looking good at this point. But I'll get all the parts someday and have a rifle I can be proud of because I "built" it. I also feel the same way about the 30-06(or any other rounds that people claim are the best ever). I like em all, and they all have their place, though some overlap. But I don't think there is really a do all/only need one rifle caliber. And besides, who only wants one rifle? :rolleyes:
 
I hunted Petersburg Alaska for black bear a couple of times. I love it up there and can't wait to go back, but this time to fish the salmon runs. The first time I hunted up there I took a M700 Remington ADL in .30-06 because it was my only synthetic rifle. Second time I went up I took my .375 JDJ because it was my only stainless synthetic rifle. I used 200 grain Nosler Partitions because I had bought a bunch cheap in the 06 and I 260 grain Nosler Accubond seconds in my .375 JDJ. It was probably a little overkill on the bullets both times but they are what I had on the bench and when I connected with a decent black bear my first trip the old Partitions did the job as advertised.

While I agree the 8mm's are good cartridges with good bullets, bullet diameter doesn't make one more lethal than the other. What makes a cartridge more lethal than the other is the person pulling the trigger. Other than that there isn't one thing that makes a bullet diameter more lethal than another.
 
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I don't live in Alaska now, but did live there for 22 years, I've hunted from the Bering Sea to Afognak Island.

There is nothing in Alaska that cant be successfully hunted with the 30-06.

The main difference is people can handle the '06 better then the heavier guns, meaning they can shoot them better.

The bullet weights for the '06 is hard to beat, from 150 for Sitka Deer, black bear and Caribou, 180s for moose, and if you are worried about the big browns you have the 220 grn pills.

As company commander of a native national guard unit on the Bering Sea, I've lived with the natives quite a bit, and have been hunting with them (though I couldn't legally hunt the marine mammals, I still went with them. Most of these guys used 223, from everything fro Seals, Moose Caribou, Walrus and Polar bears. Granted this round was chosen mostly because they could get the ammo from the guards, but still, it worked.

I'd personally rather hunt with the '06 but then I wasn't dependent on the guard for hunting ammo.

I will concede that after I started a sniper program for the AK NG using the M1C/D's, a lot of 06 ammo started showing up in the villages.

Bigger isn't necessarily better.
 
If I had to hazard any kind of guess, (and take into consideration that I myself am not a hunter), my hypothesis is that the proliferation of the larger calibers is due to a larger number of hunters who enter the field with less trigger time than our forebears, or maybe with less training on the shooting sports.

That might explain why many hunting guides do recommend the bigbangenboomers to their clients, in the hopes that a bigger faster bullet may put down the game if the client is not putting that round where it is supposed to go.

Again, this is an uneducated opinion, to take it for what its worth. But if you do hunt with a bigbangenboomer, perhaps ask yourself if you could still take your game with a 30'06?
 
Really?

taylorce1 I disagree with your "lethality" hypothesis, "8mm's are good cartridges with good bullets, bullet diameter doesn't make one more lethal than the other" Lethality would be defined as "expectation to cause imminent destruction or demolition causing death" and certainly that condition is achieved better by a larger sectional density bullet over a smaller density bullet in the conditions I stated; You might recall, my standard 8mm round is 197grain, and I'm working up a 250grain RNSN. That's pretty big for a firearm in its .323 caliber..I can appreciate the defensive stance by some who feel the 30-06 "can kill anything in North America"…it is a firearm choice that has permeated the American consciousness since WWI. So many here in the United States have them and have a love affair that is not easily dissuaded.

But facts are facts, and emotional responses don't stand up to the facts or physics of ballistics.

If any of you read Rifle's BIG BORE Rifles and Cartridges, I'll refer you to the latest 2014 issue. Turn to page 94 regarding an opinion article by Terry Wieland. Specifically read this paragraph which demonstrates the law of physics (THUS LETHALITY) as it pertains to hunting big game and using the big(ger) bore rifles:

"... A heavy(ier) bullet (with greater sectional density) retains velocity BETTER and once it's on it's way, it's harder to stop. That momentum gives maximum penetration….it also imparts resistance to wind drift and higher retained velocity."

I especially like this: Mr. Weiland processes...A bullet with greater sectional density, once it's on it's way towards it's target, won't slow down as quickly and when it hits something, it will have better penetration. One ballistic truth stands out and cannot be changed: The bigger the bore, the heavier the bullet it will handle comfortably, and the greater the ease of making it move at velocity. Heavier weight means better velocity retention because of greater momentum AND THE REVERSE IS TRUE WHEN MOVING TO A LIGHTER BULLET.
 
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FNMAUSER said:
taylorce1 I disagree with your "lethality" hypothesis, "8mm's are good cartridges with good bullets, bullet diameter doesn't make one more lethal than the other" Lethality would be defined as "expectation to cause imminent destruction or demolition causing death" and certainly that condition is achieved better by a larger sectional density bullet over a smaller density bullet in the conditions I stated; You might recall, my standard 8mm round is 197grain, and I'm working up a 250grain RNSN. That's pretty big for a firearm in its .323 caliber..I can appreciate the defensive stance by some who feel the 30-06 "can kill anything in North America"…it is a firearm choice that has permeated the American consciousness since WWI. So many here in the United States have them and have a love affair that is not easily dissuaded.

But facts are facts, and emotional responses don't stand up to the facts or physics of ballistics.

If any of you read Rifle's BIG BORE Rifles and Cartridges, I'll refer you to the latest 2014 issue. Turn to page 94 regarding an opinion article by Terry Wieland. Specifically read this paragraph which demonstrates the law of physics (THUS LETHALITY) as it pertains to hunting big game and using the big(ger) bore rifles:

"... A heavy(ier) bullet (with greater sectional density) retains velocity BETTER and once it's on it's way, it's harder to stop. That momentum gives maximum penetration….it also imparts resistance to wind drift and higher retained velocity."

I especially like this: Mr. Weiland processes...A bullet with greater sectional density, once it's on it's way towards it's target, won't slow down as quickly and when it hits something, it will have better penetration. One ballistic truth stands out and cannot be changed: The bigger the bore, the heavier the bullet it will handle comfortably, and the greater the ease of making it move at velocity. Heavier weight means better velocity retention because of greater momentum AND THE REVERSE IS TRUE WHEN MOVING TO A LIGHTER BULLET.
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First of all you can only have two kinds of wounds, lethal and non-lethal. There is no middle ground so we can only debate on animal reaction to a shot. Larger bore calibers usually do get more of a reaction from game when the bullet impacts but that doesn't make smaller calibers any less lethal. You just may not get the reaction you were expecting.

Second of all let us get some definitions straight:

Sectional density (SD)is the ratio of an object's mass to its cross-sectional area. It conveys how well an object's mass is distributed (by its shape) to overcome resistance. For illustration, a needle can penetrate a target medium with less force than a coin of the same mass.

Within terminal ballistics, the sectional density of a projectile is one of the determining factors for projectile penetration. The interaction between projectile (fragments) and target media is however a complex subject. A study regarding hunting bullets shows that besides sectional density several other parameters determine bullet penetration.

Only if all other factors are equal, the projectile with the greatest amount of sectional density will penetrate the deepest.


Ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight.[1] It is inversely proportional to the negative acceleration — a high number indicates a low negative acceleration. This is roughly the same as saying that the projectile in question possesses low drag, although some meaning is lost in the generalization. BC is a function of mass, diameter, and drag coefficient.


SD and BC don't interchange while it is true bullets of high BC usually have higher SD, bullets of high SD don't always have high BC. Since you like the 8mm bullet lets stick to that one. You like the Woodleigh 250 grain RN (2250 fps per Woodleigh) so let us compare it to the 180 grain Nosler Partition (2800 fps per Nosler). With the Woodleigh you have around 255 yards MPBR with 1830 fps and 1800 ft-lbs of energy at that range. With the Nosler Partition you have 315 yards of MPBR with 2290 fps and 2100 ft-lbs of energy at that range. In fact I don't even get to 1800 ft-lbs of energy until 430 yards and it's going 2125 fps.

Now to me the bullet that imparts the most energy at point of impact is going to get the biggest reaction from the game being shot. While your bullet has a higher SD it isn't always going to out penetrate the Nosler Partitions. You might ask why, and it's due to the bullets construction. The Partition is designed to provide rapid expansion but still have deep penetration because the shank is protected by a copper "partition". Mono metal bullets such as the Barnes TSX often out penetrate bullets of substantially higher BC/SD because even thought they are lighter to begin with they retain more weight after impact due to the fact their all copper construction allows them to retain nearly 100% of their original weight.

So in short the two people you quoted for references are using outdated info. For me I'm always going to choose the bullet when hunting game that will give me the best balance of range and retained weight. That doesn't mean I have to use the heaviest bullet with highest SD to be as "lethal" as your bullet.
 
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I'll leave it to others to decide here….

Lethality DOES have a middle ground, in fact many a fleeing wounded game has fled not knowing they were already dead! You see, lethality can be a quick kill vs a protracted death. Smaller calibers vs larger caliber rifles, shot placement, and toughness of the game all come into play regarding lethality.;)

So, your "cut and paste" response is fine, in fact you can see you made my point by quoting others!

8mm has MORE sectional density than the 30-06! Thank you for validating that since you stated, "the projectile with the greatest amount of sectional density will penetrate the deepest". That makes my point exactly!

And, BC is not the end all as it relates to our discussion…you must not have read my rebuttal or refuse to accept the heavier weighted bullet and relative inability to be slowed down, once in flight!

Numbers! Oh yes, the numbers!!!! Please explain to me why every modern hunter uses a larger caliber when hunting the larger game? Let's say, the Bison, the Moose, the Brown Bear? MOST of those here in Alaska don't use the 30-06…so what are your numbers saying…Why don't we all just use 30-06 caliber rifles up here? Surely you can come up with the answer to that (?)…..It appears, according to guides, that out-of-staters are the ones bringing in the .308 and 30-06 to hunt with. Yes, they can kill large game, but if they were the best calibers to get that job done over the large bore rifles….we up here would all be carrying them. ;) And why are the guides, carrying the LARGER calibers as back up power to the hunter carrying the .308 or 30-06? You are aware, the guides aren't carrying .308 or 30-06 as their choice of carry, right?

Now the .338 Winchester Magnum is the round that was made for Alaskan big game hunting, and is the preferred caliber of grizzly bear and moose hunters across the continent. The .338 Win Mag will drop anything and everything to walk North America. In that regard, the .338 is considered by some experts and professionals to be the best big game American hunting cartridge for that very reason. BUT…a hunter up here, a seasoned hunter, can handle the larger bore rifles just as well as a lower 48 hunter handles his 30-06…THAT IS REALLY THE KEY HERE….
 
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FNMAUSER said:
Lethality DOES have a middle ground, in fact many a fleeing wounded game has fled not knowing they were already dead! You see, lethality can be a quick kill vs a protracted death. Smaller calibers, poor shot placement, and toughness of the game all come into play regarding lethality.
Click to expand...

We can play semantics all you want, but in the end there is only lethal an non-lethal. It's like I can say the .58 caliber rifled musket shooting Minie ball should be used still by the military, simply because it killed more American soldiers than any other small arms bullet in history. However, when you get down to it most soldiers died in the Civil War because of infections and amputations. That simply happened because medical technology hadn't advanced far enough yet, and your trapped in the "Civil War" with your way of thinking.

I can only lead you to the water, I can't make you drink. I'll try to type this in simple terms, so you don't misunderstand me again. On average bullets of equal weight and design; the bullet with the highest sectional density is of the smallest diameter.

FNMAUSER said:
8mm has MORE sectional density that the 30-06! Thank you for validating that since you stated, "the projectile with the greatest amount of sectional density will penetrate the deepest". That makes my point exactly!
Click to expand...

Let us revisit your Woodleigh bullets. You use a 250 grain 8mm RN bullet with a SD of .343 correct? Woodleigh makes a .308 diameter 240 grain PP bullet with a SD of .361 with the only bullet with a higher SD on the same page of their bullet list coming from a .333 Jeffery caliber with a .383 SD that weighs 300 grains. So by your simplistic logic that particular .308 caliber bullet will be more lethal and superior to your current 8mm bullet.

Then if we go to .308 Nosler Partition I quoted had a .271 SD for the 180 grain spitzer. The 200 grain Partition 8mm Spitzer bullet only has a SD of .274. However, check this one out the little 6.5mm 140 grain Partition has an SD of .287 and the .277 caliber 160 grain has an SD of .298. So again by your way of thinking both of these bullets will be more lethal than either of the .308 or 8mm bullets. I can go to any bullet manufacturers web site and pull up SD information that disproves your theory of the 8mm having superior SD to all other bullets.

Again I'll say not all bullets are made equal and SD isn't the end all to bullet penetration. You can have lower SD bullets far out penetrate a higher one. In the end your 8mm bullets aren't any more lethal than a properly placed smaller or larger diameter bullet of adequate construction for the game it's being used on.

I'm not denying you that the 8mm cartridges aren't good and very adequate for what you are wanting to hunt. What I'm saying is your way of thinking about how bore diameter relates to SD is flawed. Plus you need to remember SD is only ONE factor out of many about how a bullet penetrates a target. You need to figure in impact velocity, bullet construction and several other things besides SD to get a reliable indication about how well bullets penetrate.
 
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taylorce1

I haven't heard your answer to any of my observations as why that particular caliber is not popular up here in Alaska….if it's everything you say it is?

I made my point…the .323 throwing out 250gr, for that matter 197gr bullets is MORE lethal (as you can see, I'm NOT buying your stubborn LETHALITY definition) than the 30-06 under 300 yards. There is no dispute there. End of story. Or maybe if we can find some idiot who would like to stand 100 yard away and take an 8mm 250gr center of mass and another same type idiot take the 30-06, same POA…whatever grain you'd like to see….want to take bets on destructive ability?

Lethality is NOT black and white, no matter how you convince yourself of that overly simplistic definition….you are being obstinate in the face of a viable explanation. Brighter folks than us lean my way in that discussion. I stated my argument for lethality, you are free to believe what you will.

Bottom line, lethality comes in threes. Accuracy, you have to hit where you are aiming. Penetration, the bullet needs to get through the exterior into the part that you really want to damage. Finally, tissue disruption, the bullet needs to make enough of a mess of what you really want to damage to cause death through blood loss or central nervous system failure.

Let's agree to disagree, neither of us are about to budge on this. So have a good night.
 
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Getting back to the OP's question about local preferences, the eskimos are well known to use .22 for everything up to polar bears! :eek:
 
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