Muzzle sweep at CCW course today

spacemanspiff said:
I saw more unsafe gunhandling during that 2 hour range time than in my entire life.
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Glad it turned out ok. That's got to make you think twice about who you are shooting with. I have to say that the three other students did a fine job in their shooting and attention to safety. The instructor did a good job of barking out specific, yet clear instructions on what we were supposed to do in unison.

I don't mean to make this guy sound like a complete idiot. He seemed to be a reasonable guy, and hopefully he took his infractions seriously. He may have learned a valuable, life-long lesson. I know I did. :)

Fly
 
I too am a nra certified instructor and give ccw classes. Probably 75 percent of the people in the class are very inexperienced and out of that 75 percent probably 25 percent have no experience. I get people all the time that bought a gun the day before the class. I feel part of my job is to teach them how to shoot and handle a weapon properly and to be able to sense which ones need one on one instruction both for there benifit and the safety of the rest of the class. Ive had shooters so inexperienced that at the first bang of there gun they were so startled they dropped it in the dirt!! This state is a right to carrry state and it is not my job to use my personal opinion to weed out who i dont feel should be carrying. Its my job to train the person, no matter how inexperienced they are, to be competant enough to defend themselves and there family. What i do at every class is offer free one on one range time at my range for anyone that needs the help or wants to improve there shooting and i will even provide the guns and the ammo. I have had to on a couple occasions stongly suggest that opion to people. But to jump on someone in front of other people is just going to make them more nervous and being nervous is what causes most of the mistakes made by new shooter. I quietly take them to the side and explain what theyve done wrong without announcing it to the world and it does alot more toward making them a safer shooter.
 
Lots of good, valid viewpoints expressed here. Some conflict, but that's pretty normal.

I am an NRA Pistol Instructor, an NRA Personal Protection Instructor and a Louisiana State Police Concealed Handgun Instructor. None of this makes me any sort of expert....just giving you the basis of my perspective.

CCW regulations down here require that we spend certain blocks of time on certain topics. I spend a LOT more time on the legal justification for using deadly force, avoidance, awareness, de-escalation, etc. than I do on operating a handgun. In other words, this more of a "when to shoot" (and "when to not shoot") than a "how to shoot" class.

When students contacts me, I interview them a bit to find out their general level of familiarity with handguns. Those who have never shot are encouraged to make an appointment to spend a couple of hours with me prior to the class. We go over safety rules, how to manipulate the gun, sight alignment and sight picture, shooting grip and stance, etc. Then we go to a nearby range and I have them shoot a box or so of ammo to make sure they are ready for my class.

The law doesn't require that I do the foregoing. But I do it. I don't want the risk of having a complete novice in the class who might hurt himself/herself, or me, or another student.

If the prospective student can't or won't schedule a pre-class meeting with me, I suggest that they contact some of the other instructors in town that are less concerned about prior experience.

Safety isn't an option in my classes. Sweeping anyone with a loaded handgun = dismissal. It will be done in a respectful, calm, polite manner, but the student will be dismissed.

For those of you who think this is a shabby way to treat those who are newcomers to the sport of shooting............I don't consider self defense shooting to be a sport. Bullseye target shooting is a sport. Skeet, trap and sporting clays are sports. Self defense (CCW) shooting is a survival skill that can pose serious threats to innocent bystanders.

I also spend a significant portion of my class explaining the importance of defensive handgun training (way beyond the scope of a CCW class) and the importance of practicing to master the techniques learned in the training courses. My students may not (probably won't) ever take a class form Clint Smith, Tom Givens, John Farnam or James Yeager, but they will at least have been exposed to the concept of professional instruction..............and they will have taught the importance of safe gun handling. How much of this they retain and/or practice is beyond my control.
 
NV-TopGun,

Welcome to TFL. :)

For perspective, I live and teach in a state (Washington) which has no training requirement. None. We have people walking around our streets carrying concealed weapons with NO training whatsoever!! :eek:

Untrained people carrying firearms! Blood running in the streets!

Actually, not quite. :)

Washington state does not require training, but Oregon, right next door, does require training. Remember, the purpose of required training is to prevent accidental shootings and also to educate permit holders so they do not violate laws through ignorance.

There is NO statistical difference between accidental shooting rates in Oregon (where training is required) and in Washington (where training is not required). In both states, accidental shootings by concealed carry permit holders are so rare as to be statistically non-existent. In both states, criminal activity by concealed carry permit holders is so rare as to be statistically non-existent. The state-required training thus apparently makes no statistical difference in the two areas the training is designed to address.

If it saves only a single life ...

There is one minor statistical difference between Oregon and Washington which is worth noting: approximately 5% of adults in Washington state possess a permit to carry a concealed handgun. Approximately 3% of adults in Oregon have a carry permit.

Why are there fewer legal gun-carriers in Oregon? I speculate that the increased cost of the permit, plus the physical hassle of doing so, plus the added time delay, might be driving Oregon's numbers down. So fewer people carry in Oregon than in Washington, and Oregon has stricter laws about who may, or may not, carry a concealed firearm. Correlation does not always equal causation, but I suspect it does in this particular case.

The overall crime rates between the two states are not appreciably different. But the overall effects on the crime rate do not tell us what is happening in any, particular, individual encounter with criminals.

I think it would be safe to speculate that at least one potential criminal victim in Oregon who would otherwise have had a permit, may have hesitated to obtain one due to the extra cost and hassle involved in getting a training-required permit. And it is safe to say that there are some in Washington who obtained permits they would not have obtained, had the cost of the permit been higher, or getting it more difficult. These individuals in Washington are each, individually, safer from criminal attack than they otherwise would have been, while that individual in Oregon is less safe than he or she would otherwise have been.

If it saves just one life ... right? :)

Anyway, that is why it is difficult for me to get tooooo wrapped around the axle about students coming into CCW classes who don't know much (or anything) about firearms. They're in the classes to learn, we expect them to learn. And while their ignorance may horrify us, it does not appear to be a problem that has any particular effect on our community once we step off the range.

We all need to do everything in our power to keep our students safe while they are on the range. At the same time, we have no control at all over what they do once they leave the range, but we can and should take comfort from the fact that even in states where no training at all is required, concealed permit holders are not causing problems in their communities.

pax
 
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We cannot escape the inevitable debate about whether the state can mandate training for the right to defend yourself.

We don't mandate training to get married or exercise your right to free speech.

We really don't have evidence that licensed carriers in nontraining states are more of a risk or less efficacious using their firearms.

I'm highly educated and I see people with little knowledge of many things voting so as to be hoodwinked by politicians. So should everyone become highly educated to vote. Or should my parents who didn't graduate high school not have the ability to vote?

The horrors stories of the range!! Listen to the radio to see what votes!!

That's the way I see it.
 
When I took my CCW class, the instructor stated up front that this was to get you exposed to the laws of Ohio not a basic firearms course. With only 10 hours class time and then 2 hours range time and a 100 question test. Maybe a third of the time was spent on safe handling of a hand gun. He explained the internals of revolvers and pistols (this was also on the test). A short amount of time was spent on marksmanship. Grip, stance, aim point. He really crammed alot into the 10 hours it was non-stop with just 2 10 minute breaks and a 45 min lunch, none of which counted towards the 10 hours. I feel that he did all that he could do to help us at whatever level we were at. Got my moneys worth for sure.
 
I'm not concerned about people coming to a class not knowing much. I am concerned about people leaving a class not knowing much -- especially not having been thoroughly indoctrinated in safe gun handling.
 
We cannot escape the inevitable debate about whether the state can mandate training for the right to defend yourself.

We don't mandate training to get married or exercise your right to free speech.
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Mr. Meyer:

I am generally in agreement with your position on this (and generally agree with most of your posts). And I don't plan to enter into any such debates either.

But you might be able to formulate better analogies. Neither marriage nor expressing opinions is likely to kill or injure innocent bystanders. But incompetent gun handling can do exactly that in a public venue.

I personally liken gun ownership and carrying in public to driving a motor vehicle. Nobody cares what you do with that car or 18 wheeler while you are on your own property. But when you pull out onto a public highway, we all start to care about your competency. We have a constitutional right to own firearms, but carrying them in public places justifies (in my mind) the concept of issuing permits.

I guess the flames (from other members) will appear very soon.
 
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It's a legit point - no flames from me. I was just trying to point out the debate. In fact, I tend towards requiring training for carry for the reasons you mention. The counterpoint is that we don't see trouble with these folks. On the other hand the demographics of most license holders in various states (older, better educated) would predict that they would be careful

I am frustrated by folks who talk the gun talk and don't bother to train. I would like to make the case for university carry but if I pushed for that - I would have a cohort of untrained who would argue for carry. Could I defend them as legit 'sheepdogs' for the campus?

In an ideal world - folks who buy guns for carry would train.

No flames from me.
 
Some GREAT points and counter points here. I like it! :)

As I said before, I wouldn't want to see more laws (and subsequent expense) for owning or carrying firearms. I'm more concerned with people's lack of motivation. I don't like showing up to a class and having no information. The instructor's job, in my mind, is to build on what we know. I figure if I come to the course with all the basic knowledge and skills to pass, then I might get a little more "advanced" instruction from the class. This was true with our class. While the gentleman with little experienced only learned the very basics (i.e., don't point your gun in that direction, squeeze the trigger, etc.), the rest of us got a few crumbs (and at my newb experience level I do mean a crumb) of advanced tactical information.

I know how this goes from my instruction days. The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association was telling everyone that flying was like driving a car. It's for everyone...come on and get your license. This is nice, but there are just some people who are not meant to fly. Or when the training was taking too long by the student's measure, they would go to the instructor next door who wouldn't make them meet all these pesky skill/knowledge requirements. It was all about pumping out students and people just love to take the easy way out.

Fly
 
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This, folks, is a thread I am closely tracking. I am about to introduce my 16 year old daughter to handguns. From the stories by instructors I feel she is a safer shooter with my .22 rifle than alot of the adults seeking a CCP. She never so much as touched a firearm until I insisted she begin the learning curve in october within a week of her 16th Birthday. She wasn't terrorized by my guns. She was afraid the recoil would hurt and the noise wasn't her cup of tea. I had her put on mufflers and, while I held the rifle outstretched, I had her pull the trigger. Her big ol' eyes lit right up and we went thru safety rules and I stood behind her while she used the tripod to stabilize it. It wasn't long after and she was helping procure ringneck doves to feed to her brother's snake.
I do sweat her first shot or 2 with the hand gun. But PAX hit the nail I needed to hear right on the head! Bri doesn't need a full mag at first.
Next question... I am the daddy not just an instructor so I have a little liberty on how we handle transgressions. Do i just give her the scowl and a stern "DERN IT.. BE CAREFUL" or do I paddle her bottom and put the gun away?:rolleyes:
I am grading her on handling of the known empty but assumed loaded weapon. Than she can learn the small things like safe inspection, cleaning, field stripping etc. before ever firing it. than it will be proficiency for a year and a half. At 18 she gets to pick out her weapon of choice (lord hopes she doesn't fall in love with them custom 1911's) in what ever color she wants. We than will start over on the weapon handling and care for that particular model. On her 21st birthday I fully intend to have her apply for her CCP. I hope the instructor tells me that she was the best "student" he ever got to qualify.:)
Brent
 
PAX has got it. There will always be (I hope) new shooters who haven't a clue. We need classes to teach them (if they have applied for a class that is a good sign). All should be welcomed but quickly corrected.

In the classes I have taken, I have to sign a legal release form before each one. This form basically certifies that I am legally insane and anything that happens is my fault. After signing something like this, I believe that hard-core training can be legally justified-- someone sweeps a co-learner, they get put to the ground hard (literally). and told never to do that again. Just one occurance of a surprise takedown will most likely cause them to really think about where the muzzle is pointed always after that, and I (as someone who has been swept in class) would encourage this.

Gun owners (esp. the new ones) need to understand that gun ownership comes with some responsibilites which cannot be abdicated. One is not to point the muzzle at anything you don't want to destroy. Never. Ever.
 
Owning a gun is one thing.

Using/firing a gun is another.

Carrying a gun day to day is another thing.

Using a gun to defend your life is something else completely.

We live in an era of "me first" and an almost complete absence of personal responsibility and accountability. Spill your coffee in your lap, it's McDonald's fault. Drink too much, run off the road drunk and kill someone, it's the bartender's fault. Spend your whole life smoking and die of lung cancer, it's Marlboro's fault. Get shot in a robbery, it's Smith & Wesson's fault.

I personally believe that with individual rights come individual responsiblities. I do not believe that rights are unfettered and without responsiblity nor obligation--and this includes the Second Amendment.

You want to own a gun, fine. Go buy one, put it in your nightstand and fool yourself into thinking it will hop right out on its own accord when something goes "bump" in the night and protect you all by itself.

You want to fire the gun or take it shooting orhunting, fine. Go take you some classes or get some quality instruction and learn the rules.

You want to carry a gun on a day to day basis, fine. Go get a LOT of instruction as to what you can and cannot do in accordance with the laws of your municipality, state and nation. Then demonstrate that you can do so responsibly and safely.

Then if you need to use that gun in defense of a life, the above criteria will show that you have accepted the individual responsibility and accountability that comes with exercising a right.

A lot of people shed a lot of blood to ensure that we maintain these rights. The very least that we can do is honor those who've stood watch over our rights by exercising responsibility and accountability when we do exercise those rights.

It may be someone's right to go straight from the gunstore to a CCW class without knowing a damn thing about their gun, how to handle it, how to load/unload it or even what kind of gun it even is. It is their right to have zero common sense about the matter and to even abdicate any responsibility for knowing anything about their firearm that they want to now carry on or about their person.

It's also my right to tell them to find someone else to be their instructor.

Jeff
 
I will put in my two cents in this thread. I am very glad I read through all the posts. I am going to be that new guy taking my CCW next saturday. I purchased a handgun about a month ago and put all of 40 rounds through it. I have very little experience with handguns. I probably fired 200 rounds through handguns in my life. I am however very proficient with a rifle or shotgun. As a matter of fact I am a great shot with my SKS and Ruger 10/22. I fully understand gun safety and have spent alot of time at home tearing down and putting back together my Springfield XD. The first and main reason I am getting my CCW is so I can more easily carry to the range. In Michigan you have to keep a handgun locked in the trunk away from ammo when transporting in a vehicle. I don't intend on carrying all the time until I have more experience and become a good shot. I know my limitations, and wouldn't feel safe carrying yet. I hope I am one of the better students when it comes to safety on the range, and I will pay attention and listen to what the instructor says. I would like to have put alot more rounds through my gun before taking the class, but the weather in Michigan hasn't permitted me to get out and shoot in the past month. So if anyone would like to offer any advice I would gladly listen. I do want to take more advanced classes as time goes on to better learn how to handle situations while carrying. Thanks, Mark
 
Wait a minute. This was a CCW course the OP was describing. I dont think a CCW course is where anyone should be learning HOW to shoot for the first time. A person taking a CCW course should already have the basics down by the time they reach the qualification shoot.
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So what do you do in a state like NY where you can't even purchase a handgun until you have your permit? What practice are you going to get ahead of time? I personally would TRY to learn everything I could ahead of time because I'm more comfortable that way, but I certainly wouldn't fault those who hadn't or couldn't.

And whenever I hear the instructors from Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc on Tom Gresham's show, they all indicate they are much happier teaching people who have no experience because they don't have to unlearn bad habits.

Treating newbies poorly is exactly why a lot of people never get into the sport. It takes a lot of time and money after the gun, ammo, licenses, photos, paperwork, etc. and adding harassment from a bunch of chest thumping loudmouths who can be quick to criticize and slow to teach is more than enough to drive those on the fence back to an anti-gun stance.
 
And whenever I hear the instructors from Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc on Tom Gresham's show, they all indicate they are much happier teaching people who have no experience because they don't have to unlearn bad habits.
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This is absolutely true. The most frightening people I have ever worked with on the line are old guys who have been shooting for thirty years or more. In a lot of cases, they've put in a lifetime of building up some very dangerous gun-handling habits. Breaking those habits takes a lot of work.

One such guy I worked with had a habit of racking the slide with his finger on the trigger and while pointing the muzzle of the gun directly into his own abdomen. When I tried to correct him, he looked at me apologetically and said, "I've been doing this longer than you've been alive. Haven't shot myself yet, but I'll try to do it your way." Funniest(?) part of the whole thing was that he was completely unaware that he was pointing the gun at himself. It was just a habit.

That's the extreme case, of course. But most instructors would agree it's a lot easier to build good habits to begin with than it is to erase bad habits.

There's something else here, too: a lot of experienced gun owners either never knew, or have forgotten, what it is like to be a newcomer and know nothing at all about firearms. They think it is "just common sense" to handle the firearm in certain ways. But the truth is, these are learned behaviors. We have new people coming into the firearms world all the time who have never even seen someone else shooting, or who have never seen it done safely while surrounded by other people on the firing line. How else are these folks going to learn, if not in a class!?

Physical skills really cannot be learned through the written word. The more energy and effort I've poured into my website and writing in other places, the more convinced I am of this basic truth. These folks have to learn somewhere, and under the watchful eye of an accomplished shooter or experienced instructor is the best and safest place for them to do it.

Treating newbies poorly is exactly why a lot of people never get into the sport. It takes a lot of time and money after the gun, ammo, licenses, photos, paperwork, etc. and adding harassment from a bunch of chest thumping loudmouths who can be quick to criticize and slow to teach is more than enough to drive those on the fence back to an anti-gun stance.
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Well said.

pax
 
I once had a brief conversation with Tom (Gresham) over this very topic--newcomers and CCW.

I come from, and have lived and taught in three distinctly different worlds--military, federal law enforcement, civilian gun safety and instruction.

In the military, you did things our way. Period. No if's, and's or but's about it. If you didn't, you were gone from our unit immediately. There was no margin for error. Everyone had to be on the same page given the nature of our work and the close proximity in which we often worked with each other on certain operations.

Didn't matter HOW you'd learned it in Boy Scouts, 4H, from your dad or grandfather . . . you did it (firearms) our way. The necessity of and for which is obvious.

In the (federal) law enforcement world, during stints I did as a firearms instructor for basic agent training at the academies, we often had to overcome previous habits.

Ironically, the female agent candidates we would teach who had no prior firearms experience would almost always outshoot the males who had no prior firearms experience. Reason? The females didn't have the "John Wayne" syndrome and mentality. While most weren't scared of the weapons, they did display more respect and paid more attention than their male counterparts.

Those who had prior law enforcement experience and training were a breeze to teach and qualify. There were exceptions, of course, but all in all seeing as how the concealed handgun was a major tool and security blanket for us, those agent candidates with previous training already knew the realities of what they were stepping into. As such, they listened and paid attention because they knew their life could very well depend on it.

In the civilian world, it was different. I have never been a "certified" civilian instructor and have never had any aspirations whatsoever of becoming "certified." Given my background and actual experience in using firearms to save my life and the lives of others, I am an unashamed and totally unapologetic hardass when it comes to teaching and expecting basic things to be done my way.

I have taught dozens upon dozens of novices how to handle, shoot, carry and safely use firearms. I am very upfront about my expectations, and I'm very thorough in how I start with "A" and end with "Z." I've had no complaints up to this point as my "students" get what they pay for--and I charge nothing.

That being said, I equate a brand new gun owner who's had no previous experience or knowledge in dealing with firearms who wants to start off in a CCW class the same as someone who's never owned or driven a car wanting to take one class and then go drive on the Winston Cup NASCAR circuit.

Based on my experience and that of many folks I've worked with in years past, there is a significant difference between owning a gun and carrying a gun on a daily basis for self-defense. And I simply do not feel that one, ten to twelve hour class taken ONE TIME is adequate preparation for one to carry a weapon on a daily basis for defense.

Now, do I think that there ought to "be a law" demanding such? HELL, NO.

But do I believe that there ought to be more individual responsibility on the part of instructors and students alike in demonstrating some semblance of knowledge and experience before taking the CCW class? HELL, YES.

It seems that we keep conveniently forgetting that with rights come individual obligations in order that we may exercise our rights safely and responsibly--so as not to LOSE THEM.

Jeff
 
"During one of the first reloads, he did EXACTLY what the instructor said not to do and he turned his firearm on its side pointing directly at me while he tried to figure out how to release the magazine."

"This is an extremely, almost universal, beginner's error."



This is a little more common then just a beginners error. It's amazing how P-off someone will get when you tell them "Point that gun down range." Being that I have spent some time with both Leo and friends in the military, one of which was in the special forces, allot of the finer points of gun safety (among other things) has really rubbed off on me. The result is that I notice little things, and if you really take the time to look and notice, you might find that its not just the newbies doing things like this.

I know of no way to get them to knock it off either. Not to say that it happens to me often, but there are occurrences I have noticed from people that should have known better. As another poster here stated . . . it seems to be due to a certain lack of motivation on there part.


I'm not sure if I have added anything to this thread, it is just an observation of mine that I kind of wanted to get off of my chest. Not many things irritate me more then a supposed "gun veteran" who acts as if he was a newbie. :mad:
 
MarkoPo said:
I am going to be that new guy taking my CCW next saturday.
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If you...
  1. know how to operate your firearm with the external buttons/levers
  2. learn and practice basic firearms safety (finger off trigger until pointed at target, muzzle always in safe direct, etc.)
  3. get some practice at the range until you are comfortable with your firearm. This shouldn't be too many rounds for someone who has been around firearms before.
  4. listen to the instructor (in class and on range) and follow his/her instruction
  5. move slowly and deliberately. I don't think there are any CCW courses which have time limits and you won't be graded on speed. Safety and accuracy do count though. As our instructor said "slow is fast and fast is slow".

vtoddball said:
So what do you do in a state like NY where you can't even purchase a handgun until you have your permit? What practice are you going to get ahead of time?
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There are always exceptions to the rule. If this is the law, and you have no way to receive instruction on the handgun you will qualify with, then the instructors will know what to expect and organize their course accordingly.

vtoddball said:
And whenever I hear the instructors from Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc on Tom Gresham's show, they all indicate they are much happier teaching people who have no experience because they don't have to unlearn bad habits.
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This is at the heart of the debate. Should a reasonable person with absolutely zero experience with firearms go to an 8-10 hour CC course and expect to walk out with all the skills and knowledge necessary to carry? Even though I felt obligated to be prepared for the class, the answer to this question for me may be "no". Again, I'm not arguing for more legislation/restrictions, just more responsibility.

vtoddball said:
Treating newbies poorly is exactly why a lot of people never get into the sport.
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I'm not advocating treating anyone badly because I AM a newb. Just suggesting that people need to be more pro-active. Know your firearm, the basic rules of safety, shooting basics (stance/grip), and get a little practice with the handgun you plan to qualify with.

TexasSeaRay said:
It seems that we keep conveniently forgetting that with rights come individual obligations in order that we may exercise our rights safely and responsibly--so as not to LOSE THEM.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
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