Muzzle sweep at CCW course today

[dave421]

As for the people taking a CCP class as their first experience with firearms, it makes a lot of sense if you think about what they're told. Many of them are probably not firearm enthusiasts and will only own a gun for protection (namely, CC). When they research it, most of the time you're going to find something along the lines of "must pass firearms safety/training course". Most of the people on this board bought a gun and then got a CCP later on down the road. They probably don't realize that there are other training classes out there other than the ones that are so highly advertised (CCP courses).

Unfortunately, these are also the people who are likely to rarely (or never) step foot in a range.

 

[trooper3385]

There needs to be more hands on training and evaluation in these CCP classes. I agree, some people are new and need to be cut some slack, but they also need some more training before they are ready for a CCP. Now you have someone running around with a CCW that has no idea how to use it. There is a lot of responsibility that goes with carrying a weapon and if you don't have the training and understanding, you don't know what these responsibilities are.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Chui, +1. I'm very sympathetic to the plight of new shooters. I've taught many beginners the rudiments of trapshooting and wingshooting and I teach NRA Basic Handgun. I will sooner be certified in Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home. I make no money from my teaching because I believe in helping need shooters get started off correctly.

But for me safety is paramount and non-negotiable. The result of even a momentary lapse can be permanent and tragic. I start with safety and reinforce it continually. I should also note that at major schools I've attended, like Gunsite, a lapse in safety is not tolerated.

 

[BreacherUp!]

This is why I don't trust BS, CCW instructors. Were there any dry drills beforehand. Weapon manipulation and relaod drills, before live ammo present?

You have to accept some training mistakes and immediately correct them, as presented earlier by AFS. Also, many people here are very afraid of firearms, and cannot fathom weapons being pointed at them. Take the good with the bad.

 

[pax]

When this gentleman pointed his gun at me, I WAS the innocent bystander. Granted, he didn't shoot me, but he wasn't exactly demonstrating #2 in your list.

Yeah, I got that. Thing is, he was demonstrating that he needed to learn what the class was intended to teach -- and that he hadn't learned it yet.

Glad your instructor was on the ball, caught him and corrected him so quickly. Too bad the instructor did not catch and stop him before he got all the way around to muzzling you! That's a failure on the instructor's part, right there.

What was the instructor/student ratio in the class? Was that guy the only newbie?

pax

 

[Frank Ettin]

And when I teach, I do have the students handle guns with no ammunition around and under close supervision. That is a good way to instill proper safety habits and is the flip side of insisting on safe gun handling at all times. While I insist on safe gun handling, I also take some pains to teach it effectively.

 

[BreacherUp!]

Too bad the instructor did not catch and stop him before he got all the way around to muzzling you! That's a failure on the instructor's part, right there.

PAX, No human instructor is going to be able to physically stop someone from muzzling another shooter without being hands-on the weapon all the time. Sometimes you need to trust the students. many times, the student need to take up needle craft.

 

[Casimer]

I make no apologies for being a "hard arse" when it comes to safety. Don't point your pistol at me. Period. Don't point your pistol at anyone else. Period. I'll tell you civilly only once.

+1 on that - and I don't think that you should need to apologize. The situation that the OP describes suggests that this person didn't bother to familiarize themselves with even the most basic requirements for handling their firearm (e.g. RTFM - read the friggin manual).

 

[pax]

PAX, No human instructor is going to be able to physically stop someone from muzzling another shooter without being hands-on the weapon all the time. Sometimes you need to trust the students.

BreacherUp, I've worked the line enough times to know that it's not physically possible to be three places at once.

But I've also observed enough well-run firearms classes to know that there are certain very predictable moments -- and certain very predictable students -- where the instructor can often sidestep a burgeoning safety issue and prevent it from growing.

One such moment is the very first time a student fires a shot. A huge number of new shooters WILL turn around after that first shot is fired, no matter how much you warn them not to do it. A good instructor knows this and plans for it. (Load one round at first. Run two or even three relays so you have enough assistants to put one in between every two students. Whatever! Just plan for it.)

Another such predictable moment is the very first time a new shooter learns how to work a slide. Muzzle control will be nearly nonexistent and trigger fingers become very wayward. It's predictable and therefore worth planning for.

Also, some students give off very clear watch-me vibes. In those cases, you park an assistant right at the guy's shoulder, and give him no opportunity to create a serious danger until you are convinced he is ready to be trusted for at least two whole blinks at a time -- ESPECIALLY during those predictable times of heightened danger. From the OP's description of his range neighbor, it sure sounded like that student was giving off the watch-me vibes, which was why I asked about instructor/student ratios. If one instructor was trying to work with 6 or more students, he did very well to pounce on the violation at the very moment it occurred. But if he had better ratios than that, the instructor did a bad thing by not perching at watch-me guy's shoulder until the most dangerous moment (of first slide manipulation) was safely past.

pax

 

[Double Naught Spy]

However, there was one individual who had just purchased a Glock before the course. I didn't get a chance to ask his experience, but he sure appeared to be relatively new to shooting.

This happens with some frequency. I have seen folks show up with a new gun that still had gun show zip ties on it.

Wait a minute. This was a CCW course the OP was describing. I dont think a CCW course is where anyone should be learning HOW to shoot for the first time. A person taking a CCW course should already have the basics down by the time they reach the qualification shoot.

You have to understand, people go to a CCW course and figure it will be like driver's ED. On top of that, don't blame the student for being new in the course and not being rejected by the instructor who apparently thought it fine to have cherries. If the course required proof of competence before attending, then that needed to be an established criterion by the instructor or state offering the course. Obviously (from the student's perspective), it is okay to take such a course if the instructor allows it because after all, the instructor knows what is required to get folks through the course, right?

 

[ragwd]

Its scary when it happens to you and how do you react? I am not a instructor but have taken several classes. In one class I took (advance pistol by Commence Fire) the instructor lectured for about a hour on range safety, this being a advanced class I thought it was sufficient. He told us all the mistakes he expected to see and sure enough I witnessed everyone he mentioned. One guy had a jammed pistol and i could see the instructor moving to get behind him because he knew what was coming, the guy turned with gun in hand to ask for help but by then the instructor had gotten close enough to him to stop his rotation and grab the gun hand and stop him from sweeping all of us behind. He stopped short of taking him to the ground and could have easily done so. I could see the tension, but he just explained to the guy what he had done wrong and restated that if you need help to keep the gun down range and to raise your support hand. I bet the guy thought the instructor over re-acted but none of us standing behind and would have been swept thought so.

 

[OnTheFly]

What was the instructor/student ratio in the class? Was that guy the only newbie?

It was a small class. Only five of us. I thought the instructor did a good job. He was giving this guy most of his attention because he had demonstrated that he had the least experience. He caught the sweep during the first mag change. The 20 yo "kid" in the class needed no supervision. He might have been more mature than this 40-something too.

Fly

 

[Alerion]

I guess the thing that concerns me the most here is the attitude that beginners don't belong in a CCW class. Do the various states represented have a more basic training class? Even if CCW isn't the most basic class, I still see it as an entry level class. That is to say, every basic CCW class I've ever seen has always gone back to square one. Not only for the benefit of shooters who may have never fired a gun before but for those who have been shooting for years but are doing it wrong. So the instructor starts at the beginning and makes sure that everyone is on the same page. In fact it's probably easier to teach good habits to new shooters than it is to correct bad habits in old ones.

Suppose someone has grown up in a house without firearms and has no friend to mentor them. He or she wants to get a gun and to be able to carry it. State law where they live requires a CCW training couse to get a permit. So they buy a gun with the expectations that they will correctly learn to use it and will obtain a CCP. Maybe they feel that they know so little about guns that they don't even trust themselves to handle it without training so they don't even remove the zip-ties. Should they be told that they don't belong in a CCW course?

CCW classes are not training courses.

Ummm... What are they then? BS sessions? There really should be some sort of training in there somewhere. Or really good doughnuts. Otherwise there's not much point in showing up.

Wait a minute. This was a CCW course the OP was describing. I dont think a CCW course is where anyone should be learning HOW to shoot for the first time.

So if knowing how to shoot is a pre-requisite for the class then list it as a pre-requisite. If there's no shooting requirement for taking the class then expect to get students who haven't shot before.

A person taking a CCW course should already have the basics down by the time they reach the qualification shoot.

That's what the classroom portion is for. BTW, try taking some advanced shooting courses sometime if you want to see how basic an initial CCW class actually is.

I would no more expect someone to come to a CCW course without this basic knowledge than I would expect someone who had never flown to come to me and say "teach me how to fly a jet at 500mph".

I see this more like someone coming into a flight school and saying "teach me how to fly in a Cessna 172 instead of a 150." For that matter, at lot of the students at the big flight schools that train terrorists come in with no flying experience and go all the way to their commercial tickets. Knowing how to fly isn't a requirement to get into the Air Force Academy either.

BTW, before I took a CCW class I'd been through a father and grandfather who shot, Boy Scout rifle ranges, Vietnam and LEO training. I'm just concerned about the image we present to new shooters.

Just my opinion,

Tom

 

[OnTheFly]

Let me re-iterate. I am a beginner and this was my first firearms course. I guess I'm just the type who doesn't want to walk into a course not knowing anything. I would rather have a base of knowledge to build on.

If I were teaching the class, I would give some prerequisites. They would include being familiar with the handgun you plan to use during the course. Obviously this might not be the firearm they plan to carry concealed, but it will allow you to absorb some of the information being presented in the class.

I see this more like someone coming into a flight school and saying "teach me how to fly in a Cessna 172 instead of a 150."

I disagree. This may work for their very first "introductory" flight, but it sure won't fly (pardon the pun) for the rest of their training. When I instruct, I expect the student to come prepared for the lesson. They need to have a base of knowledge in order for it to be reinforced in the classroom/range. This is a basic approach that any mature person who is serious about the activity would take. For example...introducing a new maneuver in flight for the very first time is not conducive to learning. In fact it is usually a waste of time. They need to at least read/discuss the basics of the maneuver before it is demonstrated/practiced. If the functions of their firearm have them perplexed, then how do you expect them to pick up on what the instructor is trying to teach? The rule of keeping their finger off the trigger may be receiving the least amount of attention because they are still startled by the recoil.

Don't get me wrong. I DO and WILL make stupid mistakes, but that's just because I'm stupid. Though it's not because I didn't at least TRY to prepare myself. I guess I am saying...why don't people take it upon themselves to be more responsible about something so serious?

Fly

 

[TexasSeaRay]

When this gentleman pointed his gun at me, I WAS the innocent bystander. Granted, he didn't shoot me, but he wasn't exactly demonstrating #2 in your list.

Yeah, I got that. Thing is, he was demonstrating that he needed to learn what the class was intended to teach -- and that he hadn't learned it yet.

Just my opinion, but a CCW class is not the place to first learn how to handle and/or fire a weapon.

Jeff

 

[davlandrum]

Most "CCW" courses that I see listed here in Oregon are listed as "Basic Firearms Safety" - with a note that it meets or exceeds CCW requirements.

I would hope that someone who had never handled a gun before would enroll in a course titled "Basic Firearms Safety"....

 

[NV-TopGun]

CCW Training

Pax - Your quote:

Required CCW classes are only designed to reassure the state that permit holders have

1) been exposed to the laws about carrying and using weapons, and

2) possess the ability NOT to shoot an innocent bystander by accident.

That's it. That's all those classes are designed to do. You don't have to know anything going in, because they're not designed to teach you much except what the laws are and how not to shoot yourself or someone else while carrying the gun.

You had a lot to say today, and most of it I agreed with. Sounded a bit sexist to me about the fingernails. My wife has long fingernails and she can shoot better than most men.

However, your quote about the reason for CCW Classes I stongly disagree with. I am an instructor in Nevada (and other states) and I see all kinds of folks show up for testing. That is what we call it here - testing - not teaching. That means (at least to me) that there had to be training beforehand. I am NRA certified to teach all of the basic training classes and teach intermediate and advanced pistol as well. In Nevada, CCW Instructors must be NRA certified so why should we not expect that folks showing up for to test for a CCW permit have some basic training as well?

Sadly, just about anyone can pass the CCW testing by simply shopping around. The facility where I teach is rated highly in the State because of our instructors (mostly police officers and former special ops guys like me). But, it we fail a student, they simply go to the local CCW mill who turn out passing scores as a business. And, it is not just the CCW classes that we see such issues. CCW renewal is just a bad. I have had ex-police officer and other law enforcement that were worse (in ability and safety) than the new guys.

Anyway, I like your forum and intend to participate as often as possible.

Nevada Top Gun (www.nevadatopgun.com)

 

[Hook686]

Yesterday 12:32 PM

OnTheFly wrote:

Originally Posted by Hook686
Hmmmm so you prefer your back to all those 'relatively new to shooting' folks. You got guts I'll say that for you.

In a word..."WHAT????" I don't understand this comment. When did I say anything about having anyone behind me?

From the last paragraph of your original post:

Just makes me wonder what might happen at the next firearm course I attend. One thing is for sure...I think I will request to be on the far right side of the line if we're all right handed.

If you are on the far right, everyone else is left of you. If you are right handed a turn to have your muzzle pointed down range to reload, you back will be facing to the left, where all the other shooters are ... at least this seems so to me ... I prefer firing line left.

 

[spacemanspiff]

Yes Onthefly, there was a ND at my class. Myself and the two instructors were the only ones who recognized it for what it was. No one owned up to it though.

I saw more unsafe gunhandling during that 2 hour range time than in my entire life. Seemed like everyone was fiddling around with their guns while not on the line, peering down barrels, shoving loaded guns into pockets (not pocket guns btw!), trying to figure out which way to put the bullets in the magazines. It was atrocious. I wound up getting frustrated at getting out the way of muzzles so I stepped on the other side of the instructors vehicle.

My gun on the other hand, stayed in its carrying case, only brought out when the line was declared hot, and set back in right after. Didnt have to load mags in between because I had enough spare mags to get through the course.

Funny little side story, think I may have told it here before, the guy next to me was complaining because his gun wasn't accurate. His target didnt have anything resembling a group. His gun was a 1911 he inherited from his father. He wished he had a race gun like his buddys, cause it was accurate. The instructor ran a magazine through the old 1911 and put 7 rounds in a group that could have been covered with a quarter. Yep, it was horribly inaccurate alright!

 

[OnTheFly]

If you are on the far right, everyone else is left of you. If you are right handed a turn to have your muzzle pointed down range to reload, you back will be facing to the left, where all the other shooters are ... at least this seems so to me ... I prefer firing line left.

Ok...I understand now. However, I don't practice turning while reloading for a few reasons. For one I don't want to change my stance if it were a true wild west shoot out. I try to keep my shoulders square to the target/threat. Also, it would diminish my peripheral vision to the left...though I might pick up a threat behind. I try to rotate my wrist clockwise so the right side of the firearm is facing the ground and the magazine well is facing my support hand. This way the muzzle is still pointed at the target. At least I believe this would be proper from what I've read.

Fly