Most overrated deer calibre?

any magnum, velocity only adds range not killing power, a 30-30 will kill a deer just as dead as a 30-378 Weatherby magnum at 100 yrds, and most deer are killed at under 150 yrds.
As for a specific caliber that is not a magnum IMHO I think the 30-06 is overrated (not a bad cartidge just overrated) the 308 has almost exactly the same velocity in a more efficent case and is much more accurate.
 
Why are you blaming the cartridge for this flinch?
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Artsmom: I am not blaming the cartridge. The cartridge is an inanimate object or a ballistic concept, depending on your definition, and can in no way be held culpable. I am blaming the shooter for choosing a calibre that he was not able to shoot properly.

Your point about poor shooting fundamentals is exactly right. My personal observations have led me to the conclusion that too many shooters attempt to compensate for poor shooting fundamentals (and consequently poor shot placement) with magnum power, on the basis that extra power will in some way compensate for not putting the bullet in the right place. Instead of improving the situation, the extra recoil and blast actually makes their shooting even worse.

As for your point about .243 - I know many professional deer hunters who use nothing else, and these guys probably shoot more deer in a week than most Americans will in a lifetime.
 
/*As for your point about .243 - I know many professional deer hunters who use nothing else, and these guys probably shoot more deer in a week than most Americans will in a lifetime.*/

So, do they kill this many deer because they use a .243, in spite of using a .243, or is it totally irrelevant what these guys are using?

I have said before, that if someone said I had to finish out my days deer hunting using a .243/6mm Remington, it wouldn't faze me a bit. If they said I had to use a .30-30, I would scope it and single feed it spitzer bullets, and it still wouldn't faze me. Neither would a .338 Winchester Magnum.

However, since I can split hairs (and picking a .243 over a .300 Winchester Magnum or vice versa to ensure success for deer, to me, is splitting hairs), I would take a 7mm Remington Magnum if only allowed one deer cartridge, but that might be the rifle and its past successes more than the cartridge.

I agree that picking a magnum cartridge to make up for lack of practice is wrong. However, I think picking a .243 to make up for lack of practice is just as wrong, and lack of practice is what is at the root of most flinches and cases of being recoil shy. Anyone big enough to drag a deer out of the woods is big enough to handle the recoil of a .270 Winchester. If they can't, (barring some injury), then they haven't shot high power cartridges enough, and they are prone to miss with either a .243 or a .300.
 
I am not entirely convinced on this "too much recoil" phenomenon
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Too much recoil is real. Anyone who uses a higher recoil gun and doesn't believe it, try this: Chamber a spent shell case, take aim and pull the trigger--notice your flinch in the crosshairs by as much as 12 inches. Yep the recoil did that. ;)
 
So, do they kill this many deer because they use a .243, in spite of using a .243, or is it totally irrelevant what these guys are using?
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I wouldn't describe it as irrelevant. They have the choice of any legal deer calibre - basically .243 and upwards (30-30 is not a legal deer calibre in the UK) - and the fact that so many choose the .243 simply says that a lot of them think it is the best choice for the job.

We can speculate on the reasons why in another thread, if you like.
 
I have always believed that the 300 Win Mag is way over gunned for normal whitetail hunting. I don't know why anyone would want use it for deer hunting unless it was to give them more versatility as for elk or moose hunting. (A parallel is drawn below with the 243 discussion.) I feel that the 7mm mag is almost as over gunned, but I can sympathize with someone who simply likes that caliber (that's calibre to you Trxxx :) ). I think that choosing a 308 over a 30-06 is splitting hairs. Both are excellent on deer sized game.

When I was younger, shot placement was the absolute key and I used a 243 win for deer hunting as I also used it for wood chucks. It was not to keep the recoil down but to own and use a rifle that shoots well and is flexible in its capabilities. I now use a 270 win, but the 243 is just fine if you do sufficient shooting. Shot placement is still the key with any caliber.

I do also believe that there can be too much recoil for many shooters. Taking this to the extreme, I suspect I would flinch like crazy if I were shooting a 460 Weatherby Magnum. I can't imagine bench shooting with a gun like that as enjoyable... strictly business for dangerous very large game.

Trxxx: Interesting job. What do you and the other hunters do with all the meat? Is the hunting done for population control only? Why not simply allow more people to hunt these deer for sport?
 
chemist308, if you are seeing what you describe, you have a Major League flinching problem. What you are describing is not normal.

Most, if not all, experienced shooters would barely notice the crosshairs moving off the bullseye. If you are having problems with recoil, it is most likely that you are not shouldering the gun properly or have an ill fitting scope arrangement causing you to get your cheek up off the stock, or both.

Yes, any rifle caliber starting with a "4" has noticeable recoil when shooting from the bench. However, it can be negated, if not ignored, by practice, just like catching a 95 mph fastball, your body will want to get out of the way, but you can teach yourself to override that and become a Catcher.

Get a snap cap and dry fire your rifle at a target about umpteen jillion times while sitting at home. Ask someone to critique your shooting positons, and make sure your scope isn't so high you have to lift your head up off the stock.

Good luck.
 
Trxxx,

I don't doubt that a .243 would be ideal for CULLING deer in game management, but culling deer is not the same as hunting deer, at least in a lot of places.

A local butcher down the road from me has no doubt killed thousands of cattle weighing much more than deer with a .22 long rifle single shot. This does not mean the .22 is suitable for hunting animals weighing in excess of 600 pounds. It is the ideal firearm to use inside his slaughter pen, but it can't be extrapolated into anything else.

Butchering is not the same as culling, and culling is not the same as sport hunting.
 
Artsmom -

Just so I can get a handle on how much of your argument is based on experience, how many deer have you personally shot with a .243? With other calibres?

That question is not intended as a slap down, I am genuinely interested.
 
I say the .30-30. So many people I know look down their noses at it but It's taken more deer than probably any other bullet. Just my oppinion.

eta; sorry I thought this was the underrated thread. My brother shoots a .300 wsm and that's just too much for deer.
 
I started the .243 debate, and I'll stand by it as being overrated, in the sense that older, experienced hunters love it, and many times suggest it for first timers because of the recoil, not realizing that the first timer is more likely to get a bad hit on a deer. A bad hit on a deer is bad with any caliber, but more so with a .243 than any of the magnums mentioned because you're probably not going to find that deer.

The .243 is indeed a great deer caliber, but in my opinion, only for those that know about shot placement and are willing to pass up on marginal shots.

About the magnums........generally, I'd say they are overkill for many situations. However, they are big in South Texas, for good reason. First, many shots can be long. Second, if you're spending lots of $$ to shoot a big buck, the last thing you want to do is chase him through miles of mesquite and cactus only to lose him. You want him to go DOWN. Many times, you go 20 yds off the road, you're lost, because there is no horizon, and the brush is so thick a rabbit can't get through. In situations like that, you don't want to play around with a .243, or even a 25-06 in many cases, because even on a perfect hit, the deer can run 100 yds. 100 yds in that country might as well be 10 miles. For this reason, the .300 mags reign supreme in that part of the country on deer. Just my 2 cents.
 
Ok guys, I'm not new to firearms, but I'll be going on my first deer hunt this October. I have .30.30's .30'06 and .308. I am leaning towards using the .30.30 levergun with iron sights, because it seems more challenging and more old school, ya know? If I can take a deer like my grandfathers did, without the scopes, I'd feel better about it. Then again, some here feel .30.30 isn't quite up to the job. So that makes me think I should use my '06(scoped) because I don't want to loose the deer (assuming I even find one). Or my M1A. I will be hunting in the southern Sierra's moderately forested, fairly steep terrain. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
Most overrated deer caliber, or - - -

- - - Caliber most often MISUSED for deer?

In either case, I'll pick the 7.62x39mm. There are a huge number of rifles and carbines in use today, chambered for this decent little antipersonnel cartridge. A great many of the owners think that, just because it's "A thirty-caliber," it must be okay for deer. Also, there's a mistaken idea that, "Well, the 7.62 by 39 is ballistically identical to the .30-30." Or, more properly, "is ballistically similar to the .30-30." Well, not really. The vast majority of the .30 Russian Short ammo sold has bullets totally unsuitable for hunting medium game - - A very hard 129 gr. bullet which doesn't expand properly, hollow point or not. Velocity is somewhat similar, but most .30-30 cartridges have a 150 or 170 gr. bullet that performs pretty darn well for it's shape and velocity.

Many deer ARE killed every year with the 7.62x39, true, but this is like it used to be with the .30 US Carbine cartridge. There are a lot of 'em in use, and many people have the good fortune to be presented with a clear, short range, standing-still shot. Is such circumstances, it'll do the job. So will a .32-20 or a short .357 revolver. But if one doesn't have the discipline to NOT take a shot beyond 50 yards or so, or if one cannot place the shot with surgical precision, it is not showing the game animal much respect.

How about, "Well, it'll do fine on a 150 pound man, so it should be fine on a 120 pound deer?" (Often heard about both the .30 short and the .30 USC.) For incapacitating an enemy soldier, any solid hit between the knees and the top of the head will do just fine. He's no longer an effective fighting unit, and he'll probably lie down and worry about getting to the aid station alive. The body of a deer is a good deal shorter, up and down, and a poorly shot game animal can escape with a lot of physical damage. Sure, he'll probably die sometime, but this is not a sporting matter.

Certainly, there are those who carefully mount a 'scope sight on their SKS or Ruger Mini 30, and choose proper sporting ammo. And, if they practice a bit, then the little cartridge is a 100 to 150 yard proposition.

Best regards,
Johnny
 
Hamhawk96R, it's not that the .30-30 is not up to the task of deer hunting-- it clearly is. Yet it is one of the more overrated deer cartridges. As a standard for a deer rifle cartridge, it's about the baseline. It's taken probably more deer than any other metallic cartridge, because it comes in such handly little repeater rifles. If you can MAKE yourself keep your shots to under 150 yards, and use good ammo, you can do fine with the .30-30. Your likelyhood of success will go way up if you'll replace the crummy factory notch or semi-buckhorn (or worse: full buckhorn) sights with a decent receiver peep sight. You'll do even better if you'll plunk down $35 or so and have a trigger job done on it. Stick a sling on it and learn how to use it, and a M'94 or a 336 .30-30 can be a VERY useful deer stick. But don't kid yourself that it has the knockdown, the wind-bucking, or the flat-shooting that an '06 has. For terrain that offers closer shots, the 170g is great, but for all-around use, the 150g loading is a little bit flatter.


The same may be said of the .243 as a highly overrated deer cartridge. Will it get the job done? Heck YES. As a matter of fact, I've got a Pre-'64 M70 in .243 that I plan to use to kill my very next deer. But I'll do that with an awareness of its limitations.
It is not a .30-06.
It is not .270.
It is not a .25-'06.
It isn't even a .257 Roberts (though it's getting close).
It's a fine caliber, but it's just a little less than those. But because it will do the job and often does the job flawlessly, time after time, some folks will convince themselves that it possesses the same capabilities as the bigger, louder, more powerful cartridges that have more recoil. Sorry. TANSTAAFL. You have to pay the piper for more power.
 
Hamhawk96R, all the guns you mention will do the job. The question is are you up to the task? If this is your first hunt, maybe you do not need a challenge yet. I assume you are proficient with all the rifles you have, and I am not trying to slight you in any way. If it was me, I'd use the scoped gun for my 1st outting (aim small...miss small). There is so much more to hunting than hitting what you are aming at. I'm not talking about tactics and techniques, I refer to anatomy. Gain a working knowlege deer anatomy and how to place a bullet through that volley ball sized area, reguardless of the position in is in. And most importantly, learn when not to shoot. Shoot often and shoot with the ammo you intend to hunt with...I'm sure you have heard it all before.
~z
 
+1 on Zeisloft's comment about using a scope on the first hunt. I would use a scoped rifle to shoot a couple of deer and gain some experience before I took on the additional challenge of iron sights.
 
Trxxx,

I really don't know how many deer I have shot. Maybe 50? I shot three opening day last year. I shot two right away, and was going to be done until I had those two gutted and hauled up to where a pickup could get them. I then went back to the river bank, shot a third one. (hunting next to a big piece of public land is like having someone put on a deer drive for you) My brother and nephew came to help me drag deer, and they shot a fourth. One 6.5 Swede bullet in the neck, one .243 slug behind the shoulder.

It is easier to tag a deer here in this state than it is to shoot a pheasant.

I also hunt with my brothers, nephews, cousins, uncle, and now even a son. One brother has probably shot maybe 80 deer, as the high scorer in the group. I think I have helped skin, butcher and wrap all but a very few of these, so I see where the bullet(s) went and what they did or didn't do. I have watched quite a few of these deer killed by these other hunters, as I have been right next to them when they shot their first and second (or 29th) deer.

I myself have used a 6mm Remington, two different .30-06 Springfields, a Savage 99 in .308, a couple or three different 7mm Remington Magnums, a couple of different .270s, a .300 Winchester Magnum for sure, but I know I am missing some. Littlest caliber I have witnessed personally was a .22 Hornet, biggest was a .50 caliber muzzleloader, most powerful was a .338 Winchester Magnum.

I am using my experience with a 6mm Remington to stand in for the .243, and my brother's usage, who has taken maybe 25 deer with his, including some nice bucks. It is absolutely great rifle for those who aren't make too many poorly placed shots. A 6mm bullet has a hard time going through a big bodied deer at an angle when the path includes a shoulder or ham. It has no problems with a broadside shot through the ribs, it is boringly lethal on any sized deer with this shot. It doesn't have a margin for error as does a .30-06, which will usually find a way to exit a deer regardless of point and angle of entry, and an exit wound is crucial on a poorly placed shot.

Arguing calibers for deer hunting is mostly an exercise in splitting hairs. I would take a .243 with a good trigger over a 7mm Remington Magnum with a bad one, I would take a 6mm Remington with a quality scope over a .30-06 with a cheap one. I would feel better about a new guy going out with a .243 with a heavy trigger and a cheap scope who had practiced than I would with a first timer going out with my best rifle in 7mm Remington Magnum and no practice.

Caliber is way down on my list of importance, but that doesn't mean I don't have opinions, even when it gets down to splitting hairs.
 
Artsmom.

Thanks for that, you are obviously an experienced hunter. I agree with your comments on .243 as they reflect my experience with the calibre too. I've been fortunate enough to have been able to shoot several hundred deer with the .243, and it is as lethal as it needs to be if the bullet is put in the right place. The one thing it doesn't always do, especially in fat deer and depending on the angle of the shot, is to leave a very big exit wound, if it exits at all. The sectional density of the 100 grain .243 bullet is surprisingly good, but exit wounds do still tend to be smaller than with a slightly larger calibre. The impact of the .243 bullet on deer always makes me think "sting" rather than "thump".

I agree with your hair-splitting comment - with different factory loadings, and favourite handloads, there is often more difference within a calibre than between calibres - in other words, there is a a lot of overlap between many very effective calibres and loadings.

For myself, as well as the .243 I've shot several hundred deer with each of .270, .308, and 7x57, and the best part of a thousand with my current favourite, the 6.5x55. They are all great rounds, and if someone picked one out at random and forced me to use only that for all my future deer shooting I know I would do just fine. Having said that, the 6.5x55 has a combination of shootability, effectiveness, accuracy and efficiency which is hard to beat, and I reach for that rifle first. Not claiming it is perfect, because nothing is, but it is pretty close to ideal for what I do.

My opinions on magnums are, I freely agree, totally subjective. Most of the really good deer hunters I know tend to favour medium power calibres, and shoot them well. Some of the poorest field shots I know seem to gravitate towards magnums in an attempt to compensate for bad shooting, and I am quite convinced they would be much better advised to drop down to something less powerful and learn to shoot it properly. At the end of the day, we owe it to the animals we hunt to shoot them as humanely as possible. I purely hate to see magnum-sized wounds in the wrong parts of deer because someone is trying to compensate for lack of skill with excessive power.

In the right hands, and even for particularly specialised types of deer hunting in the UK, magnums have their place. But I will take some convincing that they are ideal all-round deer calibres.
 
I know I sorta hijacked the thread a little, but thanks for the advice all. I think I'll use my scoped '06. One more question. How's 45.70 for hunting? I know its a big bruiser, but that might not mean much in the field. I forgot I have a Marlin 45.70 cowboy w/ 26 inch barrel I'd like to try sometime. Off subject - isn't it cool when your collection is extensive enough that you 'forget' you have something? :D
 
I think the 30-30 is both overated and underated deer riflle of all time. Overated by those with little knowledge of ballistics and underrated by those who have brainwashed by Hype, advertising and so forth...... I purchased a new 788 for 56.00, in 30-30 at Munden's Discount in 1967 or 68. Huge purchase for an Airman with a wife and two children living on 180.00 a month. ......Served me well and I knew what it was and it's limatations were. Twenty-five years I listened to a N.H. Warden cuss the 30-30 to death as the biggest wounder of deer since the spear. What he didn't recognize were shot at with iron sights, not sighted in, and at God knows what ranges. It's the HUNTER, not the gun...........Essex
 
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