Most Effective Non-lethal Weapon
- Thread starter Ray33
- Start date
Non-lethal is a misnomer when the term is applied to weapons. Just about every common weapon that is even remotely effective at stopping an attack also has the capacity to be lethal under the right circumstances. Pepper spray could easily kill someone with a respiratory illness, a tazer or stun gun could easily be fatal to someone with a heart or neurological condition, and just about any impact weapon or even your hands can be lethal if used the wrong way.
You also have the problem of reduced effectiveness with a "less lethal" weapon. Nearly all weapons stop an attack in one of two ways: either they disable or severely impair some function of the human body or they cause such great pain or discomfort that they persuade the attacker to change his/her course of action. Of those two methods, the first is by far the more effective because not everyone experiences or reacts to pain/discomfort the same way. While a dose of pepper spray would certainly make me re-evaluate my choices in life, it may not do the same to someone under the influence of some mind-altering chemical. As to the "less lethal" weapons that do physically disable or impair an attacker, they often are subject to limitations of use. Impact weapons and stun guns require you to be very close to an attacker and tazers require both leads to work as designed. There was an incident in my area not all that long ago in which a tazer used by a police officer failed to stop an attacker because both leads did not make contact (one became entangled in the legs of a chair that the attacker was trying to use as a weapon).
Another thing to consider is that a "less lethal" weapon won't necessarily keep you out of legal trouble. I cannot readily think of a scenario in which I would be legally justified in producing a weapon that I would not be legally justified in producing a lethal weapon. In most states, a person must be at minimum "in fear of death or great bodily harm" to be justified in using a deadly weapon. I very much doubt that many people would be looked on favorably by the law for using pepper spray, a tazer/stun gun, or an impact weapon unless they were also in "fear of death or great bodily harm". Also, just because a weapon has the capacity to be lethal, it does not mean that it must be employed in such a way (the underlug of a revolver, for instance, makes a formidable impact weapon).
Really, I'm not opposed to the use of "less lethal" weapons as I can see some merit to them in certain circumstances, but I do not think that they are a good replacement for a lethal weapon. There is a good reason why police still carry a firearm in addition to the "less lethal" options that they often use. I do think that someone who chooses to carry a "less lethal" weapon should seek some sort of training with it and be fully aware of its disadvantages and limitations as well as when the time has come to use the lethal weapon instead.
You also have the problem of reduced effectiveness with a "less lethal" weapon. Nearly all weapons stop an attack in one of two ways: either they disable or severely impair some function of the human body or they cause such great pain or discomfort that they persuade the attacker to change his/her course of action. Of those two methods, the first is by far the more effective because not everyone experiences or reacts to pain/discomfort the same way. While a dose of pepper spray would certainly make me re-evaluate my choices in life, it may not do the same to someone under the influence of some mind-altering chemical. As to the "less lethal" weapons that do physically disable or impair an attacker, they often are subject to limitations of use. Impact weapons and stun guns require you to be very close to an attacker and tazers require both leads to work as designed. There was an incident in my area not all that long ago in which a tazer used by a police officer failed to stop an attacker because both leads did not make contact (one became entangled in the legs of a chair that the attacker was trying to use as a weapon).
Another thing to consider is that a "less lethal" weapon won't necessarily keep you out of legal trouble. I cannot readily think of a scenario in which I would be legally justified in producing a weapon that I would not be legally justified in producing a lethal weapon. In most states, a person must be at minimum "in fear of death or great bodily harm" to be justified in using a deadly weapon. I very much doubt that many people would be looked on favorably by the law for using pepper spray, a tazer/stun gun, or an impact weapon unless they were also in "fear of death or great bodily harm". Also, just because a weapon has the capacity to be lethal, it does not mean that it must be employed in such a way (the underlug of a revolver, for instance, makes a formidable impact weapon).
Really, I'm not opposed to the use of "less lethal" weapons as I can see some merit to them in certain circumstances, but I do not think that they are a good replacement for a lethal weapon. There is a good reason why police still carry a firearm in addition to the "less lethal" options that they often use. I do think that someone who chooses to carry a "less lethal" weapon should seek some sort of training with it and be fully aware of its disadvantages and limitations as well as when the time has come to use the lethal weapon instead.
http://www.canemasters.com/
I have a couple of friends who swear by these canes. They are specialty canes made for combative purposes, that still function as assistance devices.
Of course, these aren't non-lethal. They can be quite lethal, if one hits the right spots, and they will qualify as deadly weapons if employed as such. But they are not regulated, if that's what you were looking for.
I have a couple of friends who swear by these canes. They are specialty canes made for combative purposes, that still function as assistance devices.
Of course, these aren't non-lethal. They can be quite lethal, if one hits the right spots, and they will qualify as deadly weapons if employed as such. But they are not regulated, if that's what you were looking for.
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K9s, Chicago IL police dept, T3 tasers...
I suggested K9s or dogs but I'd agree you must have the space/time/skills to handle the common LE/security breeds.
Even with formal training, some large dogs can wig the #%+@ out.
While a lower enlisted MP in the early 1990s, I heard of 2 different K9 MPs or "working dog" handlers(a US military term) get chewed up by their issued pooches.
As for the use of Maglights, I used to tote a 5 C cell Maglight on patrol. Some of my MP platoon members would ask to borrow it when I was off.
I recall too of a media item in Chicago IL. The police union pushed to keep the older heavy type Maglight as a PD issue item.
It seems the top brass wanted to buy cheap plastic lights for patrol use.
As for Tasers, the firm now markets a larger multiple subject Taser. A large(200+ sworn officers) agency near me bought a few.
The T3s look like hair dryers and retail around $1700.00 USD www.QMuniforms.com . The C2 or maybe the X26 look much more practical.
I'd agree too that any "non lethal" or "less lethal"(a phrase I do not agree with) isn't going to cause an immediate stop to all critical events. They can just buy time or allow you to flee to a safer location or find LE.
ClydeFrog
I suggested K9s or dogs but I'd agree you must have the space/time/skills to handle the common LE/security breeds.
Even with formal training, some large dogs can wig the #%+@ out.
While a lower enlisted MP in the early 1990s, I heard of 2 different K9 MPs or "working dog" handlers(a US military term) get chewed up by their issued pooches.
As for the use of Maglights, I used to tote a 5 C cell Maglight on patrol. Some of my MP platoon members would ask to borrow it when I was off.
I recall too of a media item in Chicago IL. The police union pushed to keep the older heavy type Maglight as a PD issue item.
It seems the top brass wanted to buy cheap plastic lights for patrol use.
As for Tasers, the firm now markets a larger multiple subject Taser. A large(200+ sworn officers) agency near me bought a few.
The T3s look like hair dryers and retail around $1700.00 USD www.QMuniforms.com . The C2 or maybe the X26 look much more practical.
I'd agree too that any "non lethal" or "less lethal"(a phrase I do not agree with) isn't going to cause an immediate stop to all critical events. They can just buy time or allow you to flee to a safer location or find LE.
ClydeFrog
stonewall50
New member
@Irish: Play time for a dog isn't just a ball lol. It seems like you give him plenty of time to get out though lol. I had a mut from when I was younger who wouldn't ever "play" by our standards, but he LOVED to run. He could run all day and that is pretty much what he did(we lived in the boonies). But for GSs, the cops in my hometown(who my dad treats for basically no charge) run them on the obstacle courses alot. That's usually all it takes.
+1 to clydefrog. It is important to note that the non-lethals are to give you time to bolt. In actuallity that is what your concealed carry is for. To give you a chance to fight back to get away.
+1 to clydefrog. It is important to note that the non-lethals are to give you time to bolt. In actuallity that is what your concealed carry is for. To give you a chance to fight back to get away.
BigBob3006
New member
I go with the people Who voted for the brain.
Every form of martial art that we have started with the brain of some poor farmer who would loose his head if he was found with a weapon in his possession, his home, on his farm or in the possession of a member of his family. It is difficult to keep track of what technique is the best. Especially if a technique works. Especially if the person who was charged to use a certain technique never comes back to tell you why a technique didn't work.
Wonderful thing the brain.
Remember, pickin' them up and layin' them down is also a non leathal form of self defense. The main reason I came back was to remind you, don't get so tied up in a non lethal defense that you become the only fatality of the incident.
Every form of martial art that we have started with the brain of some poor farmer who would loose his head if he was found with a weapon in his possession, his home, on his farm or in the possession of a member of his family. It is difficult to keep track of what technique is the best. Especially if a technique works. Especially if the person who was charged to use a certain technique never comes back to tell you why a technique didn't work.
Wonderful thing the brain.
Remember, pickin' them up and layin' them down is also a non leathal form of self defense. The main reason I came back was to remind you, don't get so tied up in a non lethal defense that you become the only fatality of the incident.
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moose_nukelz
New member
Check with your state laws regarding batons, in California it is a felony outside of a very short list of circumstances to be in possession of one. OC/pepper spray works half the time and you are more than likely going to end up contaminating yourself to a certain degree.
45ACPShooter
New member
I would guess that some kind of multi-shot taser would be the best although it'd be more expensive and harder to conceal than pepper spray or a kubotan. I've seen and heard about plenty of people being stopped by tasers whether or not they are determined and/or on drugs. Pepper spray I think is effective most of the time although occasionally there's people who aren't as effected by it and it might not be the best weapon in close quarters.
Ringolevio
Moderator
The first rule of streetfighting...
The first rule of streetfighting was always "Have something in your hand".
I have a 110 lb. Shiloh Shepherd (old style GSD). But he's a deterrent, not a weapon. Your dog can best serve you by standing at your side (or behind your door, or behind your fence) and snarling and barking his head off. Anyone not deterred by that, you'll have to deal with yourself. But training a family pet to do bitework is fraught with peril, legal and otherwise.
Learn more about all aspects of dog training at www.Leerburg.com.
But the best "non-lethal" weapon is some kind of a stick. The poster who suggested a cane has the right idea. It'll give you the reach (so you can keep 'em from getting "inside" and jamming you up); it's "low tech" and therefore dependable, and it looks perfectly innocent until put to use. Learn a couple of moves. A cane is also a deterrent; it's obvious that you have something besides your bare hands and are capable of putting up a fight.
Of course, if you could walk down the street carrying a long-handled shovel...
The first rule of streetfighting was always "Have something in your hand".
I have a 110 lb. Shiloh Shepherd (old style GSD). But he's a deterrent, not a weapon. Your dog can best serve you by standing at your side (or behind your door, or behind your fence) and snarling and barking his head off. Anyone not deterred by that, you'll have to deal with yourself. But training a family pet to do bitework is fraught with peril, legal and otherwise.
Learn more about all aspects of dog training at www.Leerburg.com.
But the best "non-lethal" weapon is some kind of a stick. The poster who suggested a cane has the right idea. It'll give you the reach (so you can keep 'em from getting "inside" and jamming you up); it's "low tech" and therefore dependable, and it looks perfectly innocent until put to use. Learn a couple of moves. A cane is also a deterrent; it's obvious that you have something besides your bare hands and are capable of putting up a fight.
Of course, if you could walk down the street carrying a long-handled shovel...
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+1 on the cane, when I fractured my leg a few years back my wife bought me an Irish Blackthorn Walking Stick from Cold Steel, it makes a very impressive weapon even for the untrained. I've now been taking some savat lessons, so I still on occasion walk with the cane in places I can't carry. 
http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html
http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html
Just because you have a weapon doesn't mean you have to use it. A majority of BG's would run if they thought they would be shot. The one's that would not might not be disabled assuredly.
All things considered you might carry spray and a concealed handgun. It is hard to continue an attack if you can't see; and that condition buys enough time to get the carry out of concealment, try to leave and be prepared if the assault continues.
If they cross the line and you are in danger of your life: act decisively.
All things considered you might carry spray and a concealed handgun. It is hard to continue an attack if you can't see; and that condition buys enough time to get the carry out of concealment, try to leave and be prepared if the assault continues.
If they cross the line and you are in danger of your life: act decisively.
The problem with impact weapons, Pittsburgh PD incident...
I have serious problems with the use of impact weapons or sticks by citizens(not sworn LE or licensed security).
I tend to avoid the ASPs & PR24s because of the civil liability. I've seen events where a impact weapon could be useful & others where it would lead to a full scale brawl or an increased risk.
Using a thick cane or impact weapon could also make YOU look like the aggressor or "bad guy" when LE finally rolls in and a huge crowd of gawkers or on-lookers tell them how you bashed some guys brains out.
Even sworn LE officers can have problems. Look at the Youtube clip of the Pittsburgh PNC Park event. A drunk was hit with a nightstick by a uniformed Pittsburgh police officer.
The LE officer didn't strike the subject in the arm or leg either(as I was trained to do in the US Army military police years ago).
In closing, a ASP or PR24 may protect you against blows or be used for defense moves but I wouldn't choose it as my first weapon.
ClydeFrog
I have serious problems with the use of impact weapons or sticks by citizens(not sworn LE or licensed security).
I tend to avoid the ASPs & PR24s because of the civil liability. I've seen events where a impact weapon could be useful & others where it would lead to a full scale brawl or an increased risk.
Using a thick cane or impact weapon could also make YOU look like the aggressor or "bad guy" when LE finally rolls in and a huge crowd of gawkers or on-lookers tell them how you bashed some guys brains out.
Even sworn LE officers can have problems. Look at the Youtube clip of the Pittsburgh PNC Park event. A drunk was hit with a nightstick by a uniformed Pittsburgh police officer.
The LE officer didn't strike the subject in the arm or leg either(as I was trained to do in the US Army military police years ago).
In closing, a ASP or PR24 may protect you against blows or be used for defense moves but I wouldn't choose it as my first weapon.
ClydeFrog
non-lethal weapons usually can be very lethal. I suggest intensive study in one of the martial arts(avoid the ones you see on tv if the advertise they are almost certainly useless as trainers) Jujitsu is my first choice, but it will take years untill it is instinct and if it ain't instinct then it is more dangerous to you then anyone else. The greatest benefits from training will be to your over all health and state of mind and those benefits take only weeks to begin to notice! All that said when unarmed running is always a good idea if possible, heck it is a good idea when armed, if possible
So what would you choose as a first weapon if you don't think civilians should be able to use a stick to defend themselves. If you lived in the Chicago area they take away tear gas, knives and guns from victims. Some of us with disabilities use a cane to keep our face off the pavement and the kubotans I handed out to women acquaintances were among those who had been disarmed. The kubotans never got a second look from anybody. I hope you aren't suggesting everybody join the police force in order to get a right and the training to defend themselves. If you don't approve of sticks what would you suggest, a whistle and a cell phone?
I think everybody not enrolling in the life of crime life style should get some basic training and wear a short sword and a dagger. Watch the muggings and rapes go down down down. Watch the bad guys go down, down, down.
Tongue and cheek on the sword comment but it sure would make life easier on citizens and harder on boogermen if the average Jane and John Doe walking down the street had a handgun and a seriously sharp knife on their person and a walking stick in their fist.
Hey, I have an idea, why don't we take the 2nd. at its word and act as if our rights should not be infringed.
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stonewall50
New member
Again I will emphasize this after having been in Kali...if you are going low tech with a cane or other blunt instrument...you need to train with it. It isn't a choke up and swing away game in a street fight. You need to hit the guy where it counts on the first shot or he IS going to get inside that stick and beat you down. Remember pommel strikes etc can work.
Quite frankly my "non lethal" is a knife (sarcasm). If a guy gets stabbed it is his choice if it is lethal...he has time to get to the hospital if I slice him up a little(switching strikes and he wont bleed out but he may not be able to use his arm). Again all was sarcasm there. I really cannot forsee a situation where I would use non lethal that I could not get out of without it. It helps that I am a big guy who is trained in martial arts, but when am I defending myself without a gun?
Quite frankly my "non lethal" is a knife (sarcasm). If a guy gets stabbed it is his choice if it is lethal...he has time to get to the hospital if I slice him up a little(switching strikes and he wont bleed out but he may not be able to use his arm). Again all was sarcasm there. I really cannot forsee a situation where I would use non lethal that I could not get out of without it. It helps that I am a big guy who is trained in martial arts, but when am I defending myself without a gun?
Rifleman1776
New member
Yes, the PC term these days is "less lethal". I would vote for pepper spray.
It can be fired from a short distance, is easy to carry and concealable. Anyone can use it. And it is quite effective.
Maybe not as final as a gun but we are talking about options here.
I carry one and have used twice. Once on a dog trying to attack me. The other time on a drunk trying to punch me out. Stopped them both in their tracks.
It can be fired from a short distance, is easy to carry and concealable. Anyone can use it. And it is quite effective.
Maybe not as final as a gun but we are talking about options here.
I carry one and have used twice. Once on a dog trying to attack me. The other time on a drunk trying to punch me out. Stopped them both in their tracks.
Old G, local-state laws...
Hey Old G;
I don't want to whiz in your Wheaties but you need to keep your state/local laws under consideration.
If you need a cane or stick for medical reasons so be it
Just keep the laws & use of force standards in mind. If you face a formal criminal charge or a massive civil lawsuit you can't honestly say these topics never came up before.
CF
Hey Old G;
I don't want to whiz in your Wheaties but you need to keep your state/local laws under consideration.
If you need a cane or stick for medical reasons so be it
Just keep the laws & use of force standards in mind. If you face a formal criminal charge or a massive civil lawsuit you can't honestly say these topics never came up before.
CF
My Wheaties are fine, the first point is everybody has a right to live and that means they have a right to self defense and no law, no regulation, no local ordnance can negate that right. The police and their liberal employers in local government may hassle you but when push comes to shove you have the right to defend yourself with whatever you can find to defend yourself. If getting pulled over and disarmed every time a policeman looks at you is a problem then the laws need to be changed.
In the meantime it is attitude not weapons that is the first tool in your defensive arsenal. Use a frying pan, a garbage can lid, a baseball bat, a can of hairspray, scream bloody murder, and if you have a baton or kubotan or cane or knife use it with prejudice. Hurt your attacker, disable him if you are able, kill him if you must but do not. I repeat, do not let yourself be defenseless because some legislator living in a safe neighborhood behind 10' walls and with private security says your stick is illegal. Use what you have and use it as hard as you can.
I have had one sister raped back in the 60's and another attacked, the one attacked I had just gone through a few self defense moves and an attitude talk with her. Her assailant ended up with a drum stick stuck in his eye. My grandmother ran off a man breaking into her kitchen door by jabbing him hard under the chin with a 30-30 right after levering a shell into the chamber. He wasn't happy to see the police but he felt safer with them then he did with her.
I am not whistling in some internet fantasy dark when it comes to self defense for self and family, I am dead serious and the local police officer can take the anti-weapon regulations and stick them up the legislators sunshine hole where they will do the most good.
If some mope is going to jump on me the absolute last thing on my mind will be 'what are the state laws governing my response.' If he jumps on one of my 4 sisters he is likely to have a really bad day. Especially if he jumps on the one carrying a .380 pistol. Another is a nurse whose son who runs a Dojo in North Carolina, mama is tougher than son. One has a large dog and a house full of guns and the last lives with me. She is blind and disabled with a bad back and arthritis but her two brothers, Mike and me, are very protective.
Don't be telling people they don't have a right to defend themselves because they haven't undergone some state approved self defense program or that the state doesn't like the stick they choose to carry.
I have read the constitution many times and nowhere in there is any clause allowing the state or the Federal Government to limit or regulate my ability to defend myself. That is the law I go by. Hardnosed, you betcha.
In the meantime it is attitude not weapons that is the first tool in your defensive arsenal. Use a frying pan, a garbage can lid, a baseball bat, a can of hairspray, scream bloody murder, and if you have a baton or kubotan or cane or knife use it with prejudice. Hurt your attacker, disable him if you are able, kill him if you must but do not. I repeat, do not let yourself be defenseless because some legislator living in a safe neighborhood behind 10' walls and with private security says your stick is illegal. Use what you have and use it as hard as you can.
I have had one sister raped back in the 60's and another attacked, the one attacked I had just gone through a few self defense moves and an attitude talk with her. Her assailant ended up with a drum stick stuck in his eye. My grandmother ran off a man breaking into her kitchen door by jabbing him hard under the chin with a 30-30 right after levering a shell into the chamber. He wasn't happy to see the police but he felt safer with them then he did with her.
I am not whistling in some internet fantasy dark when it comes to self defense for self and family, I am dead serious and the local police officer can take the anti-weapon regulations and stick them up the legislators sunshine hole where they will do the most good.
If some mope is going to jump on me the absolute last thing on my mind will be 'what are the state laws governing my response.' If he jumps on one of my 4 sisters he is likely to have a really bad day. Especially if he jumps on the one carrying a .380 pistol. Another is a nurse whose son who runs a Dojo in North Carolina, mama is tougher than son. One has a large dog and a house full of guns and the last lives with me. She is blind and disabled with a bad back and arthritis but her two brothers, Mike and me, are very protective.
Don't be telling people they don't have a right to defend themselves because they haven't undergone some state approved self defense program or that the state doesn't like the stick they choose to carry.
I have read the constitution many times and nowhere in there is any clause allowing the state or the Federal Government to limit or regulate my ability to defend myself. That is the law I go by. Hardnosed, you betcha.