I don't see any bashing in this thread. I love Mosins, but facts are facts. They're great military rifles, but they're not a modern hunting rifle. They're not going to be as accurate, as smooth, or as easy to mount a scope on as the Savage. That's not a put down of the Mosin though. It was never meant to be anything more than a rugged, reliable military rifle that could hit a man sized target at 300 meters. It excels at that goal. Love the Mosin for what it is, and don't try to make it something it's not.
mosin nagant or axis?
- Thread starter axis223
- Start date
I don't see any bashing in this thread. I love Mosins, but facts are facts. They're great military rifles, but they're not a modern hunting rifle. They're not going to be as accurate, as smooth, or as easy to mount a scope on as the Savage. That's not a put down of the Mosin though. It was never meant to be anything more than a rugged, reliable military rifle that could hit a man sized target at 300 meters. It excels at that goal. Love the Mosin for what it is, and don't try to make it something it's not.
Model12Win
Moderator
Amen!!
I might be a little harsh on the Mosin, but I'd like to save the OP some trouble if I can. And save a Mosin.
The Mosin is an ok rifle, but I don't think I'd go as far as calling it a great rifle. I think it's generally outclassed by the Mauser. The only reason there has been so much interest in them is because the rifles and ammo were so profoundly inexpensive until recently.
The Mosin Nagant has a lot of potential, and really, it was as good as it got for 1891.
And we aren't talking about factory new cream of the crop sniper rifles, or Olympic grade custom masterpieces. We are talking oil soaked quasi-refurbed mixmasters with frosted or sewer bores. Getting one degreased and running smoothly is a minor gunsmithing project in itself.
The Mosin is an ok rifle, but I don't think I'd go as far as calling it a great rifle. I think it's generally outclassed by the Mauser. The only reason there has been so much interest in them is because the rifles and ammo were so profoundly inexpensive until recently.
The Mosin Nagant has a lot of potential, and really, it was as good as it got for 1891.
And we aren't talking about factory new cream of the crop sniper rifles, or Olympic grade custom masterpieces. We are talking oil soaked quasi-refurbed mixmasters with frosted or sewer bores. Getting one degreased and running smoothly is a minor gunsmithing project in itself.
FiveInADime said:
Having 3-4 manufacturers of stocks for the Axis isn't anywhere near what the Savage 10/110 have. Hogue, Choate, and B&C don't even offer a simple stock for the Axis, let alone any of the higher end stock makers. Plus overall if one item is made for the Axis you have at a minimum 3-5 more choices in the Savage 10/110 aftermarket parts.
As far as Boyd's not having a stock for your Savage, try giving them a call and I'd bet they'd have one to fill your needs. Your Predator Hunter is going to have a heavier barrel than the standard contour most model 11, so you might look at the model 12 stocks as they'll have a larger barrel channel. If you can't find one that drops in, it's not that hard to open a barrel channel with some simple tools.
I quit using Savage when they dropped the Stevens 200 line of rifles, it's now cheaper for me to buy Walmart M700 ADL rifles than a basic 10/110 rifle. From playing with the Stevens 200 rifles I have all the tools needed to remove and replace M700 barrels. The 700 is a little more work,but it has a lot more options for parts available thana 10/100 rifle as well.
jersurf101
New member
I have a 1939 Tula Mosin, an axis in .223 and a model 11 trophy hunter in .308 win. I would not get a Mosin for your purposes. My Axis shoots circles around the 11. I have put around 900 hand loads down the model 11 in three years and I must say it is really disappointing. Berger 168s and Hornady 168hp projectiles have gotten. Me down to around 1.5 Moa. I cannot find any suitable deer hhnting projectiles that will shoot ubder 3Moa in this rifle.
To be honest accuracy is on par with my Mosin through 300 yards. I have sworn off Bergers for hunting due to two failures of expansion.
That said I would go with the axis in .308. My .223 has been a great shooter. Just wanted to share some experience
To be honest accuracy is on par with my Mosin through 300 yards. I have sworn off Bergers for hunting due to two failures of expansion. That said I would go with the axis in .308. My .223 has been a great shooter. Just wanted to share some experience
The thread was about modified rifles, so this is comment is irrelevant.
ANY rifle comes down to the hardware. Stock and correct fitment, receiver/bolt, and barrel.
Many Mosins were rough, particularly wartime 91/30's.
The Finns produced high quality barrels, well inletted wood stocks using steel shims, and using Russian produced actions produced highly accurate rifles.
The TKIV-85 is STILL the oldest serving DM rifle in active military use today based on the Mosin-Nagant action.
The M28-76 was (and still is) used in target competitions to this date.
This is an original M28-76 barreled action, in a custom stock I made for the customer, being shot at 1,450 yards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM12yZ7GKlw
My opinion is based on fact, and POI at the target. I've never said that these were accurate rifles in their original configuration- and particularly not with 3-4 moa ammunition.
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Cheapshooter
New member
Axis, or other commercial sporting rifle.
With the Mosin you will spenda lot of money making a sow's ear out of a sow's ear, not a slik purse. The Mosin is a great sow's ear. I have a several of them, and enjoy shooting them. But no matter what you do they will never be a silk purse.
They are what they are. A great, historic military rifle.
With the Mosin you will spenda lot of money making a sow's ear out of a sow's ear, not a slik purse. The Mosin is a great sow's ear. I have a several of them, and enjoy shooting them. But no matter what you do they will never be a silk purse.
They are what they are. A great, historic military rifle.
No it isn't. He wants to know if he should buy a modern rifle, or convert a Mosin.
The correct answer is, unless he wants to spend more to get less, get a modern rifle.
The reality is with a Mosin, using your prices, he will spend ~$500 (Accurizing & Rock Solid mount $230, bent bolt $50, plus shipping, ~$140 for a Boyds stock, ~$100 a Timney trigger) to turn a $250 rifle into a ~$100 rifle. At best, it may be close to the accuracy of a modern rifle, but probably not.
The prices for the Accurizing, scope mount and bent bolt are from you, Stock and trigger from Midway.
The ridiculous thing is that he could buy a Mosin, throw it in the trash and buy an Axis and still be ahead financially over modifying a Mosin, and have rifle that is better in every measurable way than a modified Mosin.
Unless, of course, he wants to spend money to be different.
BFD. You could do the same thing with an off the shelf modern rifle for a less money. Manufacturing has come a long way in the past 80 to 125 years.
Plus, a M28/76 is pretty much the pinnacle of Mosin Nagant development (it and the TKIV-85), really apples to oranges with what the OP is asking.
I would say no if you are going to modify an MN and try to make it a tack driver.
If you want that you can get either a Savage 12FV from Cabalas with a varmint barrel (heavier barrel) with an acu trigger, the nice Savage bolt for $420 regular price or on sale at times 50 and 100 off. Ok stock.
They also carry a tactical Model 10T. Only drawback is the nut is smooth so a bit harder to get off initially if you want to change barrels (and a new nut) .
Also has the acu trigger (very nice trigger in my opinion)
That one is $600 regular and again, 50 and 100 off at times.
Both are Cabella only specials.
If you want that you can get either a Savage 12FV from Cabalas with a varmint barrel (heavier barrel) with an acu trigger, the nice Savage bolt for $420 regular price or on sale at times 50 and 100 off. Ok stock.
They also carry a tactical Model 10T. Only drawback is the nut is smooth so a bit harder to get off initially if you want to change barrels (and a new nut) .
Also has the acu trigger (very nice trigger in my opinion)
That one is $600 regular and again, 50 and 100 off at times.
Both are Cabella only specials.
I already advised the OP in my first response that- for less $$- he would have a better shooter with a factory rifle.
You miss the entire point of a custom, whether it's built off a BAT action, a 700, a Mauser K98K, or a Mosin-Nagant.
Ummm...apparently, you'd be surprised at the numbers of gun owners, that do..
99% of the guys that build $5,000 custom bolt guns can't shoot the difference between it, and a Savage 12 LRP. That's not the point.
From $300 Cerakote jobs, to 1,500 factory stocks (not to mention the guys that spend $2,000 on a chunk of wood- to make a custom stock costing twice that..
You can keep posting the pic of the ridiculous looking idiot with the crap all over his face- but it adds no substance to your argument. I've made my point, so I'll exit this thread
Am I the only one who thought this thread was going to be comparing the Mosin-Nagant to the German K98? You know, Russian vs Axis Power rifles? 
Seriously: for what you describe, the most cost-effective decision, with the highest potential accuracy, in the most re-sellable package, is to buy a modern rifle in the caliber you want.
If you WANT to do the conversion because you want a one-of-a-kind rifle that reflects your skills as a gunsmith, then you can use the Mosin-Nagant.
However, it would probably add at least $500 to have it done right, plus the cost of the rifle itself, as well as the scope. This means probably closer to 7-800 to make it as nice as you can.
You would need to:
And you know what? After all of this, that Savage Axis will still be cheaper, as well as probably more accurate and with the same or better trigger feel.
If you want to do the labor, for some reason, that is fine. I did something like this [other than re-chambering] to a 1895 Chilean Mauser that has been in the family [in sporterized condition- I didn't start the ruin] since about 1962.
It is a family heirloom that shoots a very respectable hunting round for deer and smaller game. It does everything I want of it. If I want more power, then the family '03 comes out as the 30-06 is good enough for whatever the 7x57 is borderline for, for me. I won't hunt griz, or elephant.
Now here is a different thought:
Buy the Mosin for a brush gun at distances under 150 yards. At that range, the M39 or M44 will have about as much knock-down power as a .308, if not more. Add a different safety, and leave it alone. It is what it is.
THEN, buy the Axis for long range work [target or hunting].
Just don't try to make a classic muscle car into an Indy car- the amount of money it requires to make the change isn't really worth it.
Seriously: for what you describe, the most cost-effective decision, with the highest potential accuracy, in the most re-sellable package, is to buy a modern rifle in the caliber you want.
If you WANT to do the conversion because you want a one-of-a-kind rifle that reflects your skills as a gunsmith, then you can use the Mosin-Nagant.
However, it would probably add at least $500 to have it done right, plus the cost of the rifle itself, as well as the scope. This means probably closer to 7-800 to make it as nice as you can.
You would need to:
- rebarrel it in .308 [barrel cost, and labor, plan at least $200 if no shipping involved].
- Probably have a custom bolt head made for the non-rimmed .308 cartridge.
- Have the headspace set.
- Have a scope mount drilled/tapped in the scout configuration.
[*]the lack of a rear bridge makes other designs problematic. - Fit Boyd Stock, and then finish it.
- Fit Timney trigger with safety, to bypass the incredibly useless factory safety, and the 5lb military pull.
- Have the entire gun refinished, to match the pretty stock and barrel you just installed.
- Buy a long-eye relief scope.
- Realize long-eye relief scopes may be good for hunting, but are not as good for precision long-range shooting.
And you know what? After all of this, that Savage Axis will still be cheaper, as well as probably more accurate and with the same or better trigger feel.
If you want to do the labor, for some reason, that is fine. I did something like this [other than re-chambering] to a 1895 Chilean Mauser that has been in the family [in sporterized condition- I didn't start the ruin] since about 1962.
It is a family heirloom that shoots a very respectable hunting round for deer and smaller game. It does everything I want of it. If I want more power, then the family '03 comes out as the 30-06 is good enough for whatever the 7x57 is borderline for, for me. I won't hunt griz, or elephant.
Now here is a different thought:
Buy the Mosin for a brush gun at distances under 150 yards. At that range, the M39 or M44 will have about as much knock-down power as a .308, if not more. Add a different safety, and leave it alone. It is what it is.
THEN, buy the Axis for long range work [target or hunting].
Just don't try to make a classic muscle car into an Indy car- the amount of money it requires to make the change isn't really worth it.
I too frown on the "sporterize" of a antique firearm. I am however pro choice, it's YOUR firearm and if you want to play hackenstein, then do as you please. Mosin's are plenty accurate (let's remember they were mass produced back in the early 1900's people). I shoot my all the way out to 600 yds and it shoots about 3-4 MOA at 600 yds. Pretty dam admirable. If you don't own a Mosin you owe it to yourself to get one. They are extremly fun and painfull to shoot. Your will develop a huge respect for what our military marksmen had to use effectively during that era. I have a zero collectible value Ishyvesk 91/30 that I restored and added a scout scope to be able to shoot at 600 :
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=568613&highlight=91+30
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=568613&highlight=91+30
Road_Clam, I agree: freedom of choice.
I just didn't want him to think it would be a sound financial decision.
For transparency reasons, I should add I own a Russian made [1943] 91/30 and Polish made [1954] M44.
They ARE more accurate than I am.
However, my 1895 Mauser with Timney and Scope are easier to hit the gong at 400 yards.
I wouldn't feel undergunned with the Mosin design.
I just wouldn't want to change the caliber to something I already have in .308 [Garand, Saiga, Savage M99F, FR8].
Why not have more than one?
I just didn't want him to think it would be a sound financial decision.
For transparency reasons, I should add I own a Russian made [1943] 91/30 and Polish made [1954] M44.
They ARE more accurate than I am.
However, my 1895 Mauser with Timney and Scope are easier to hit the gong at 400 yards.
I wouldn't feel undergunned with the Mosin design.
I just wouldn't want to change the caliber to something I already have in .308 [Garand, Saiga, Savage M99F, FR8].
Why not have more than one?
If you want a Mosin, buy a Mosin. Lots of history and very fun. Eventually, ammo will come back.
If you want a modern rifle, buy a modern rifle. The Axis is priced very well for not going crazy into precision shooting.
The one thing I did not see was the OP's use for said rifle. I saw using it in competition with irons, but seemed like an added benefit. If that was the main use of it, check out a Swiss K31. We are still on friendly terms with Switzerland, so surplus ammo should still find its way here. Very well built and accurate rifle. If dead set on a Mosin, Classic has Finnish rifles still.
I have a PU sniper, which I love. But it isn't an Olympic rifle. You get Minute of Man out of it. Can you squeeze accuracy out of it? Of course... just like I can squeeze accuracy out of my NAA Sidewinder. It all depends on what expectations you are looking for.
If you want a modern rifle, buy a modern rifle. The Axis is priced very well for not going crazy into precision shooting.
The one thing I did not see was the OP's use for said rifle. I saw using it in competition with irons, but seemed like an added benefit. If that was the main use of it, check out a Swiss K31. We are still on friendly terms with Switzerland, so surplus ammo should still find its way here. Very well built and accurate rifle. If dead set on a Mosin, Classic has Finnish rifles still.
I have a PU sniper, which I love. But it isn't an Olympic rifle. You get Minute of Man out of it. Can you squeeze accuracy out of it? Of course... just like I can squeeze accuracy out of my NAA Sidewinder. It all depends on what expectations you are looking for.
They still have weapons using 7.62x54R. Problem now is that they kind of are using it in areas that were exporting it to us. Once the Ukrainian conflict resolves, there will be a good deal of extra ammo that, a war torn country, does not want sitting around (plus, it is money for rebuilding). Same thing happened after the fall of the Soviet Union... lots of stuff that can be sold to make money. Whether it can be imported directly to us is a big question.
I think there will be a dry spell until Russia and other ex-Soviet counties start selling off older surplus. If they sold up to the 1980s, whatever they didn't use from the 1990s pile will be sold next. 2020s, we should see stuff from the 2000s (they sell off to keep their stocks somewhat new). That is unless they decide to rechamber that heavy rifle/machine gun round to something more modern (not rimmed)... but even then, it takes time to rearsenal an army.
With the PK machine gun using the round (high rate of fire, so need a quantity of ammo), and a country that has an economy so highly dependent on defense, I don't think you have to worry about the more common Russian calibers (and they are exported to a lot of their allies). Stuff like 7.62 Nagant and Tokarev might be gone, though.
You are making the assumption that the former Warsaw Pact continued to produce ammo after the fall of communism at the rate they did when they were preparing for war with the west. That is not an assumption I would make.
I also don't believe any of the surplus ammo came from Russia, rather than from former Soviet states. Russia is a member of CIP, and all ammo needs to be proofed, not sure how they would do that for military ammo made ~25 years ago.
