Mosin-Nagant M91/30, I think I'm improving.
- Thread starter Mosin-Marauder
- Start date
dakota.potts
New member
I disagree that you haven't made progress. You've opened up to new paradigms you wouldn't have before. You've sought out instruction and got feedback from experienced teachers. Your groups have improved and you've singled out bad habits of your shooting. You've researched lots of different firearms types and made decisions based on pros and cons of each, learning what's good for you along the way.
Two words of advice for you (and then a lot more)
Don't try to buy your problems away. You've considered an awful lot of firearms. That's OK. We love firearms. I've done the same with a godawful amount of guns and bass guitars. Just make sure you're not looking at or buying guns as a means to practice at this point. What you have should do you great.
Don't be too eager to jump on the big guns. Set up a target at 25 yards and use the iron sights on your Ruger. Put it on a bipod or bags benchrested or prone if you have to. Focus on breathing and trigger pull and shoot 5 shot groups. At 25 yards, you should be able to shoot them into a group the size of a half dollar without too much struggle. The gun itself shouldn't need to be upgraded until you're shooting consistent half inch groups at 25 yards, which translates to 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Even then you could probably squeeze some out of the ruger. Until the point you can get 5 shots into a group at least the size of a quarter to a half dollar, any other gun will likely result in frustration for you, as you're seeing.
The Mosin is not an easy gun to group with in any regard. It bucks like a mule. Trigger pull can be horrible (I got lucky on mine). Sights are crude and often not sighted in at distances people target shoot at. It's hard to follow through and see a shot because recoil is bouncing you off your line of sight. No trigger return also hurts follow through to some extent.
Any problems you have grouping with an easy to control rifle like the .22 will be amplified on a bigger caliber, especially in a crude gun with poor ergonomics. I intend to put my Mosin away myself until I can get better groups out of my .22. I know my breathing and trigger control are not where they need to be.
Keep shooting for the love of shooting. Don't be afraid to shoot the Mosin. Destroy milk jugs if you want. Shoot at paper targets. Just remember to learn your fundamentals if you want to increase your shooting skills.
A bit off topic, I joined my first serious skills-based forum when I was 14. It was bass guitar. I remember getting a lot of the same comments about being mature and well-spoken. Internet forums are great because you will generally be accepted for who you are as long as you are respectful and well spoken. It gives you a chance to be on a level playing field with people you may not consider peers. The level of expertise, science, repetition, passion etc. given off by those around here may be different than what you're used to with peers or friends and family who are casual shooters. We are all very passionate about what we do and it shows in our need to improve. You have it too. You may find that being treated as a member of this group means you are treated a little differently than in other relationships, and that's as a member who is trying to improve as all of us. What you may see as being hard on you, frustrating, elitist, etc. is just part of that drive to share information. We want to see you succeed because simply by signing up here we sense that you want to succeed and we tend to push you in ways that others don't. I don't mean to speak for you, but these are the feelings I remember having and the frustrations I had and hope that it may help you feel like I am not picking you apart for your skills or enthusiasm. Maybe it's unwarranted, I don't know.
We all wish you the best of luck in reaching your goals.
Two words of advice for you (and then a lot more)
Don't try to buy your problems away. You've considered an awful lot of firearms. That's OK. We love firearms. I've done the same with a godawful amount of guns and bass guitars. Just make sure you're not looking at or buying guns as a means to practice at this point. What you have should do you great.
Don't be too eager to jump on the big guns. Set up a target at 25 yards and use the iron sights on your Ruger. Put it on a bipod or bags benchrested or prone if you have to. Focus on breathing and trigger pull and shoot 5 shot groups. At 25 yards, you should be able to shoot them into a group the size of a half dollar without too much struggle. The gun itself shouldn't need to be upgraded until you're shooting consistent half inch groups at 25 yards, which translates to 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Even then you could probably squeeze some out of the ruger. Until the point you can get 5 shots into a group at least the size of a quarter to a half dollar, any other gun will likely result in frustration for you, as you're seeing.
The Mosin is not an easy gun to group with in any regard. It bucks like a mule. Trigger pull can be horrible (I got lucky on mine). Sights are crude and often not sighted in at distances people target shoot at. It's hard to follow through and see a shot because recoil is bouncing you off your line of sight. No trigger return also hurts follow through to some extent.
Any problems you have grouping with an easy to control rifle like the .22 will be amplified on a bigger caliber, especially in a crude gun with poor ergonomics. I intend to put my Mosin away myself until I can get better groups out of my .22. I know my breathing and trigger control are not where they need to be.
Keep shooting for the love of shooting. Don't be afraid to shoot the Mosin. Destroy milk jugs if you want. Shoot at paper targets. Just remember to learn your fundamentals if you want to increase your shooting skills.
A bit off topic, I joined my first serious skills-based forum when I was 14. It was bass guitar. I remember getting a lot of the same comments about being mature and well-spoken. Internet forums are great because you will generally be accepted for who you are as long as you are respectful and well spoken. It gives you a chance to be on a level playing field with people you may not consider peers. The level of expertise, science, repetition, passion etc. given off by those around here may be different than what you're used to with peers or friends and family who are casual shooters. We are all very passionate about what we do and it shows in our need to improve. You have it too. You may find that being treated as a member of this group means you are treated a little differently than in other relationships, and that's as a member who is trying to improve as all of us. What you may see as being hard on you, frustrating, elitist, etc. is just part of that drive to share information. We want to see you succeed because simply by signing up here we sense that you want to succeed and we tend to push you in ways that others don't. I don't mean to speak for you, but these are the feelings I remember having and the frustrations I had and hope that it may help you feel like I am not picking you apart for your skills or enthusiasm. Maybe it's unwarranted, I don't know.
We all wish you the best of luck in reaching your goals.
Get the tech sights and instead of a new gun, consider some upgrades for that 10/22; target barrels aren't that much. I got the interchangeable apertures, nice feature.
My first gun was a Remington 581, still have it, still love it.
Also, like others on TFL, I'm surprised to see a young person so interested in shooting, it's great!! If you need a real sling, I'd be happy to send you an old one I have. It's a 'Rubanks Pioneer Leather' GI style sling. It's a little short for me, plus it gives me an excuse to give the wife when I order a Turner Saddlery white feather sling. (And maybe you'll buy my book when you get older; it's in my signature)---sorry for the shameless plug. If you PM me your mailing address I'll send it out Friday, if you are interested.
Edit--as Dakota Potts said, work on fundamentals. That being said; an older gentleman once told me 'son, you can buy your way into the bullseye.' It has a grain of truth to it.
My first gun was a Remington 581, still have it, still love it.
Also, like others on TFL, I'm surprised to see a young person so interested in shooting, it's great!! If you need a real sling, I'd be happy to send you an old one I have. It's a 'Rubanks Pioneer Leather' GI style sling. It's a little short for me, plus it gives me an excuse to give the wife when I order a Turner Saddlery white feather sling. (And maybe you'll buy my book when you get older; it's in my signature)---sorry for the shameless plug. If you PM me your mailing address I'll send it out Friday, if you are interested.
Edit--as Dakota Potts said, work on fundamentals. That being said; an older gentleman once told me 'son, you can buy your way into the bullseye.' It has a grain of truth to it.
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Mosin-Marauder
New member
Denis, here's a picture of the sights. Sorry for the dark photo, had just taken the scope off and was getting a feel for the irons.
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The screws are used in adjusting for elevation.
Loosen them (carefully, with the correctly-sized screwdriver blade to avoid buggering the screw heads), just enough to allow the notch plate to move up or down as needed for elevation corrections.
Tighten them up after moving the plate.
Shoot, check for POA/POI, repeat as necessary.
Don't back them all the way out unless you want to change the notch, you may never find them again & they're tiny and hard to get started in the threaded holes again.
You can see there are two different configuration notches, one on top of the movable plate & one on the bottom.
That gives you two slightly different sight pictures.
Up to you which one you want to use.
Decide to use the bottom notch, remove screws, rotate the bottom notch up, replace plate in sight, re-install screws, tighten them down.
The diamond I find distracting & irritating & blacken out on any gun I acquire that has it.
That's just me.
The rear sight is CAREFULLY & LIGHTLY tapped to either side in its dovetail in the barrel to adjust for windage.
Tap from left to right to move bullet impact TO THE RIGHT on target.
Tap right to left to move bullet impact TO THE LEFT on target.
If you do this, use a brass or nylon punch with a small enough tip to place it on the BASE of the hinged sight. Tap that punch lightly with a small hammer, gun resting on a fairly solid surface. Best to have your Dad, or some other body, hold the gun still while you tap on it, if you don't have some sort of vice setup.
If you whack away on the top part of the sight, you can bend or break it.
If you use a steel punch, you can dent the base and/or mar the bluing.
I put a strip of masking tape crosswise over the top of the barrel right touching the front of the sight base, and use a pen to make a very small witness mark on it directly in front of some prominent part of the base. If there's a witness mark of any sort on the front of the base, the tape witness mark goes right in front of it.
If not, I'll put the tape witness mark right in front of one (sometimes both) corners of the base.
The purpose of the witness mark on the tape is to provide a reference point to show you if, and how much, you moved the sight base during your tapping.
Also to show a return point, if you for some reason want to put it back just as it was when you started out.
Without the witness mark, you can't tell visually quite as easily how far you've moved the base.
Don't be afraid to ask more questions if that wasn't clear.
Denis
Loosen them (carefully, with the correctly-sized screwdriver blade to avoid buggering the screw heads), just enough to allow the notch plate to move up or down as needed for elevation corrections.
Tighten them up after moving the plate.
Shoot, check for POA/POI, repeat as necessary.
Don't back them all the way out unless you want to change the notch, you may never find them again & they're tiny and hard to get started in the threaded holes again.
You can see there are two different configuration notches, one on top of the movable plate & one on the bottom.
That gives you two slightly different sight pictures.
Up to you which one you want to use.
Decide to use the bottom notch, remove screws, rotate the bottom notch up, replace plate in sight, re-install screws, tighten them down.
The diamond I find distracting & irritating & blacken out on any gun I acquire that has it.
That's just me.
The rear sight is CAREFULLY & LIGHTLY tapped to either side in its dovetail in the barrel to adjust for windage.
Tap from left to right to move bullet impact TO THE RIGHT on target.
Tap right to left to move bullet impact TO THE LEFT on target.
If you do this, use a brass or nylon punch with a small enough tip to place it on the BASE of the hinged sight. Tap that punch lightly with a small hammer, gun resting on a fairly solid surface. Best to have your Dad, or some other body, hold the gun still while you tap on it, if you don't have some sort of vice setup.
If you whack away on the top part of the sight, you can bend or break it.
If you use a steel punch, you can dent the base and/or mar the bluing.
I put a strip of masking tape crosswise over the top of the barrel right touching the front of the sight base, and use a pen to make a very small witness mark on it directly in front of some prominent part of the base. If there's a witness mark of any sort on the front of the base, the tape witness mark goes right in front of it.
If not, I'll put the tape witness mark right in front of one (sometimes both) corners of the base.
The purpose of the witness mark on the tape is to provide a reference point to show you if, and how much, you moved the sight base during your tapping.
Also to show a return point, if you for some reason want to put it back just as it was when you started out.
Without the witness mark, you can't tell visually quite as easily how far you've moved the base.
Don't be afraid to ask more questions if that wasn't clear.
Denis
You got instruction at Appleseed, that is an excellent place to start.
You can practice at home, with the Mosin. Draw a circle on a post-it note and stick it on the wall at the other side of the room. With an empty rifle, use the fundamentals you were taught at Appleseed and mount the rifle, align the sights and break the shot. Take your time, don't worry about working the bolt, or the next shot, or anything else.
Go slow. Pay attention to where the sights were when the sear released. This is referred to as "Calling the shot" and is understanding it is important to improving. With proper focus and practice, you should know if the sights were properly aligned.
CLICK: That was a little left and low
CLICK: That was low
CLICK: That was a little high
CLICK: That was good
CLICK: That was a little left
etc.
When I was competing in service rifle, the standing position kicked my butt. When I started my scores were normally 150-155 out of 200. A year later, I was in the 180s regularly (not perfect, but solid NRA "expert" level shooting), and the prime source of the improvement was dry fire practice as I described. I still had room to improve when age started to catch up to me and my eyes had too much trouble seeing the sights, so I stopped competing.
practice, practice, practice.
You can practice at home, with the Mosin. Draw a circle on a post-it note and stick it on the wall at the other side of the room. With an empty rifle, use the fundamentals you were taught at Appleseed and mount the rifle, align the sights and break the shot. Take your time, don't worry about working the bolt, or the next shot, or anything else.
Go slow. Pay attention to where the sights were when the sear released. This is referred to as "Calling the shot" and is understanding it is important to improving. With proper focus and practice, you should know if the sights were properly aligned.
CLICK: That was a little left and low
CLICK: That was low
CLICK: That was a little high
CLICK: That was good
CLICK: That was a little left
etc.
When I was competing in service rifle, the standing position kicked my butt. When I started my scores were normally 150-155 out of 200. A year later, I was in the 180s regularly (not perfect, but solid NRA "expert" level shooting), and the prime source of the improvement was dry fire practice as I described. I still had room to improve when age started to catch up to me and my eyes had too much trouble seeing the sights, so I stopped competing.
practice, practice, practice.
SpringOWeiler
New member
You need to put that rifle away as others have said. I'm going to be brutally honest with you.
You're groups 100% say that it is too much rifle for you. I've shoot smooth bore muzzle loaders more accurately then that.
The mosin is a poor rifle to learn marksmanship with. Shooting well with a mosin is an advance skill. You are not an advance shooter (sorry but someone needs to say it). Perfect you're 22 and then I recommend buying a Ruger American or Savage Axis in 223/556 too extend the distance and really reinforce your shooting fundamentals along with the cheap surplus inexpensive factory ammo that caliber provides. Learn about bullet drop and environmental conditions. Additionally learn about MOA and how scopes utilize it. Scopes guarantee a consistent Point of Aim. Irons do not.
Leave that mosin alone and just take it out only for fun and cheap anti-material destruction. It's not going anywhere and respect the fact that you have a piece of history you can take out and enjoy.
I'm not trying to demean you, but I am being harsh because I feel you need it. You have the opportunity to grow into a phenomenal marksman and I want you to not make the same mistakes I did.
You're groups 100% say that it is too much rifle for you. I've shoot smooth bore muzzle loaders more accurately then that.
The mosin is a poor rifle to learn marksmanship with. Shooting well with a mosin is an advance skill. You are not an advance shooter (sorry but someone needs to say it). Perfect you're 22 and then I recommend buying a Ruger American or Savage Axis in 223/556 too extend the distance and really reinforce your shooting fundamentals along with the cheap surplus inexpensive factory ammo that caliber provides. Learn about bullet drop and environmental conditions. Additionally learn about MOA and how scopes utilize it. Scopes guarantee a consistent Point of Aim. Irons do not.
Leave that mosin alone and just take it out only for fun and cheap anti-material destruction. It's not going anywhere and respect the fact that you have a piece of history you can take out and enjoy.
I'm not trying to demean you, but I am being harsh because I feel you need it. You have the opportunity to grow into a phenomenal marksman and I want you to not make the same mistakes I did.
please just listen to us
as a young shooter id again agree with the others, put that gun away till your ready for it , its not a "starter gun", it was a full military service battle rifle, and is in no way suited to your experience level. i started on 22lr at age 5,and i now shoot 308 and i personally dislike 30 06 when shooting, i have less control , than on my 308 rifles.
you first need to do a few shooting classes that introduce you to new calibers
till you find that one or two you can handle and be accurate with. there is no shame starting at the beginning and id have much more respect for more shooters who do the same.
its the same as if i gave you 1000cc motorcycle and expected you to be a motogp racer, when you should be on a 250 cc bike. its not within reason that i should expect you to properly control the device of that caliber, if you havent yet learned to control the basic system. following?
we are not trying to be mean , but to guide you with knowledge and experiences we ourselves have learned, and as you came to this forum requesting the knowledge , isn't it in your best interest to listen ?
That said ....
to help control the mosin i can state the following:
mosins are a higher caliber rifle and can kick
(id recommend the recoil pad that replaces the but plate , just two easy screws and quick install to reduce recoil looks like a rubber L shaped pad with 2 holes)
the other is more of a technique, using the sling firing technique , i recommend you watch a few youtube videos demonstrating the proper method which wraps one are around sling for a more stable shooting position. this was the proper military method to firing the rifle
Alternative caliber to look into
-223, 22 (LR)
as a young shooter id again agree with the others, put that gun away till your ready for it , its not a "starter gun", it was a full military service battle rifle, and is in no way suited to your experience level. i started on 22lr at age 5,and i now shoot 308 and i personally dislike 30 06 when shooting, i have less control , than on my 308 rifles.
you first need to do a few shooting classes that introduce you to new calibers
till you find that one or two you can handle and be accurate with. there is no shame starting at the beginning and id have much more respect for more shooters who do the same.
its the same as if i gave you 1000cc motorcycle and expected you to be a motogp racer, when you should be on a 250 cc bike. its not within reason that i should expect you to properly control the device of that caliber, if you havent yet learned to control the basic system. following?
we are not trying to be mean , but to guide you with knowledge and experiences we ourselves have learned, and as you came to this forum requesting the knowledge , isn't it in your best interest to listen ?
That said ....
to help control the mosin i can state the following:
mosins are a higher caliber rifle and can kick
(id recommend the recoil pad that replaces the but plate , just two easy screws and quick install to reduce recoil looks like a rubber L shaped pad with 2 holes)
the other is more of a technique, using the sling firing technique , i recommend you watch a few youtube videos demonstrating the proper method which wraps one are around sling for a more stable shooting position. this was the proper military method to firing the rifle
Alternative caliber to look into
-223, 22 (LR)