more sporting?

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Methinks Thou Knows Not What thee Talketh About

THE (place animal type here) doesn't kill for fun. (Ok well house-cats do, got it).
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Raccoons kill for fun, so do weasels, dogs, coyotes, foxes, crows, chimps... Most any animal that eats meat will kill for fun. I have seen animals kill other animals just for the sport of it, then walk away from the kill without eating it.

I lost over 400 young chickens to four raccoons. Birds strung out all over the place and only one of them partially eaten.
 
If I were to hunt it'd be with a camera, unless I felt like a tasty backstrap or smoked hind quarter. But I enjoy tracking and observing animals and haven't felt the need to kill any.

But as for my deployments, Hemingway said it best:

"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter"

I'm not putting down hunting, nor do I have anything against it. Its just not a sport. And as for the definition of sport: What rules govern hunting? Where you hunt, that you wear orange, when you hunt. But these don't make it fair for the animal. Some stakes keep you from baiting, and that does, a bit. Doesn't keep you from making a feed plot though. Some states keep you from using a .22 caliber, a funny law, but only to make it more humane. And for the top two, engaged in competively... so do you compete in how many you kill or who's killed the biggest? So really the only one that may apply is; "3. An active pastime; recreation." which I guess means playing the wii is a sport as well.

I just don't see why there is a need to call it a sport, or where sportsmanlike comes in? How do you hunt sportsmanlike? You're still using a projectile to kill an animal while hiding in a way where it cannot see, hear or smell you. Or using a dog to chase it to an area where you can shoot it. Again, I don't have anything against this. I pride myself in being able to walk through the woods while causing the least disturbance possible. I enjoy following sign, and predicting where animals will be. And I like putting my shots where I want them, which is why I joined this site to exchange ideas and learn better how to reload. Either way, I've made my arguments as of why I don't think its a sport, not bashing hunting... but why I don't think its a SPORT.
 
And as for the definition of sport: What rules govern hunting? Where you hunt, that you wear orange, when you hunt. But these don't make it fair for the animal.

That's no different than complaining that the play clock doesn't make football more fair for the goal posts.

If two people compete with each other to see who can break the most clay pigeons is that a sport? The Olympic committee thinks so. If the same two people go to Argentina and compete with each other to see how many doves they can kill, is that a sport? I certainly think so. Hunting need not be fair to a game animal to be a sport.

Fair chase hunting considers fairness to the game animal but that has nothing to do with whether or not hunting is a sport.


I just don't see why there is a need to call it a sport, or where sportsmanlike comes in? How do you hunt sportsmanlike?
The same way you are sportsman like when playing basketball. You follow the rules.
 
The competition isn't between goal post. But all the rules of football make it fair between the teams. From face masking to late tackle, all the rules make it fair for the teams competing, not for the turf or the goal post, I wasn't asking what rules in hunting made it more fair for your rifle. Unless you're saying that a deer is just a goal post. See I thought hunting was between the hunter and the prey, not between Tom, Dick, and Harry to see how many they could slaughter at one time. So yeah, if you, Beevus, Cleetus, and Bo' Jackson all got together, put some rules up and decided to see how many critters you could kill for the fun of it, wha-la its a sport. (as per some dictionary's version of sport). But that isn't exactly hunting now is it? Oh yeah and in the Olympics is about marksmanship, not killing. Though I will give you, in the 1900 Olympics they used live pigeons. But its still not hunting. Which was what I thought we were talking about. How hunting could be more sporting. Here's a better guide:

1) Complex Physical Skill. It must contain a complex physical skill. Thus the "game" of checkers is ruled out.

2) Competition. There must be an element of competition to it. While running a mile under four minutes may be quite a feat, if there is no competition then it may simply be an afternoon jog for a world class runner.

3) Rules. There must be a formal set of rules; it must be institutionalized. There should be a governing body and a recognized set of rules that keeps the playing field level, or at least understood!

4) Reward. There should be a reward/motivation factor for the competition. This could be external (money/trophy/etc.) or internal (satisfaction of doing your best) or a combination of external or internal.

Sure hunting may fit into one or two of these, but all?

Fair chase hunting is a set of limitations you put on yourself, with some outside rules...Like don't chase it with a vehicle, don't drug it, don't coral or tie it up, and don't shoot it if its swimming or stuck in a snow drift. So while Joe may think that its only fair if he shoots an animal within 50 or so yards with a bow; Bob my think it perfectly fair if he shoots one with a 300WM at 700 yards. Even if you do put constraints on hunting to make it fair (like an above example where they only hunt with .223; which I'm not saying anyone should, again I am not putting down hunting, just giving my reasons why I, personally, don't think its a sport) you'd just be putting a smaller rifle in the hands of people not capable of making the shot for a clean kill, and in the end wounding more animals than if said hunters were using a rifle within their capabilities to kill an animal. I hope that comes across the way I mean it to.

Also to play sportsman like in a SPORT means: The Department of Intercollegiate Athletics (ICA) acknowledges that sport and competition rely on the basic values of sportsmanlike and ethical conduct: respect, fairness, civility, and honesty; therefore, the department requires its student-athletes, coaches, staff, and fans to adhere to the standards these values create.

Violating sportsmanlike and ethical standards shall never be the means by which victory is achieved. ICA believes that its programs, participants, coaches, and spectators will benefit and gain more enjoyment from intercollegiate competition that follows the rules and conduct becoming to an institution of higher education.

ICA recognizes and encourages the enthusiastic support of athletics at the university and will continue to encourage this passion as long as it is reflected in a positive manner.

So sportsmanlike hunting is not spiking your rifle after shooting an animal? No obscene or excessive victory dance? No sportsman like hunting is still largely dependent on state laws. Like baiting... is it sportmanlike to bait animals? Or shooting animals when they are unable to get away, like swimming or tangled in branches? Not trashing the woods when you leave...but how does that apply to what we know of as sports. I guess football players are unsportsman-like if they leave water bottles on the side of the field. Maybe I just don't know enough about hunting or sports to combine them.
 
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The competition isn't between goal post. But all the rules of football make it fair between the teams.
Right. Football is still a sport even though the competition isn't between the goal posts and the players. Bass fishing is still a sport even though the competition isn't between the fisherman and the fish.

Unless you're saying that a deer is just a goal post.
A deer is no more a goal post than a football is a goal post.

So yeah, if you, Beevus, Cleetus, and Bo' Jackson all got together, put some rules up and decided to see how many critters you could kill for the fun of it, wha-la its a sport. (as per some dictionary's version of sport). But that isn't exactly hunting now is it?
Most of us do use a dictionary when it comes to defining words. I think it helps avoid confusion.

Sure hunting may fit into one or two of these, but all?
I think hunting can fit into all of those categories but it doesn't need to in order to fit the dictionary definition of "sport" I provided.


So sportsmanlike hunting is not spiking your rifle after shooting an animal? No obscene or excessive victory dance? No sportsman like hunting is still largely dependent on state laws. Like baiting... is it sportmanlike to bait animals?
I'd say baiting isn't sportsman like if the state law says it's not legal.

Or shooting animals when they are unable to get away, like swimming or tangled in branches? Not trashing the woods when you leave...but how does that apply to what we know of as sports.
I'd say you're thinking more of fair chase rather than sport.
 
1) Complex Physical Skill. It must contain a complex physical skill. Thus the "game" of checkers is ruled out.
-Shooting a bow or rifle accurately is a complex physical skill.

2) Competition. There must be an element of competition to it. While running a mile under four minutes may be quite a feat, if there is no competition then it may simply be an afternoon jog for a world class runner.
-the hunter is "competing" against the superior senses of the animal. I have been within 70 yards of elk numerous times, but have not be able to close to 50 yards, which is my personal limit for the complex physical skill of shooting my bow.

3) Rules. There must be a formal set of rules; it must be institutionalized. There should be a governing body and a recognized set of rules that keeps the playing field level, or at least understood!
-I think this defines "competition" better than "sport". But one could argue that the state regs that govern hunting are the "rules", and the body that sets those rules does not want it so uneven that an entire population gets wiped out. There are a lot of hunting tags that go unfilled every year, so it can't be too biased toward the hunter.

4) Reward. There should be a reward/motivation factor for the competition. This could be external (money/trophy/etc.) or internal (satisfaction of doing your best) or a combination of external or internal.
-Pretty straightforward.

So, following your logic, if I am fishing in a bass tournament it is a sport, but if I am just fishing for enjoyment, it is not? Or unless I am shooting against my buddy at the range, archery is not a sport? Following that thought, football is only a sport during a game, all other times it is just a hobby...
 
I probably should have been both more clear and more emphatic is Post #23.

There is subsistence hunting for survival. All other hunting, no matter how it's done, is sport hunting. Period. End of story.

The term came about as the actual need for subsistence hunting declined and the idea of handicapping oneself came to be. "Only shoot a bird when it's in flight" is one example. It's not law, but it's favored custom. (Doesn't apply to blue quail, though. The "run-run bird". :D)

Seems reasonable to assume that the hunting becomes more sporting as one increases one's handicap--but that's still an individual judgement. After all, there are some folks who consider it a challenge to make love in a hammock, and even more of a challenge when standing.

So time goes on and folks improve their technology as folks have always done. Some like that, some don't like that. Again, so what?

We'll always have overly-competitive people who hunt, and others who have no interest in anything resembling what we call fair chase or even clean, ethical kills. That small percentage of all hunters, however, should not have us squabbling among ourselves over small differences in how we view the act of hunting.

I tend to look down on those who make all-inclusive statements about people's hunting styles when there is a difference from that to which one is accustomed. Stand hunting is uncommon in wide open country. So what? Walking hunting is uncommon in heavy brush and timber. So what?

Southern hunters and central Texas hunters, to my personal knowledge, are as likely to be doe hunters or even small-buck meat hunters as they are to only seek El Biggie, the trophy buck. In my home territory in the desert, we only hunt bucks: Too sparse a population to even begin to consider hunting does. You only spend the interest on your principal; if you spend the principal, you go broke. Does are principal, bucks are the interest.

And so it goes. It ain't much of a career, picking flypoop out of pepper.
 
"Perhaps you should try hunting out West - or even better, sheep hunting in Alaska - it's a slightly different style than that. "
Oh yeah, don't ya'll chase them with choppers? Please tell me that you chase them naked, with your bare hands... LMAO.
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Hunting game animals from aircraft is prohibited, as is hunting them the same day you flew into the area - not that I expected you to know that. You obviously haven't hunted out West in open country, tracking, spotting and stalking, etc.

But then, folks like you keep this place interesting, to say the least........
 
So now the competition isn't between two people, but between man and the animal, a full circle. And we're back where we started. Just read my first couple of post on that.

Again, the rules arn't set up in the sake of fairness, but to keep hunters from wiping out the species like they've done so many times before. Which I've also said before...

So if the competition is against man and animal, you're using weapons, camo, scent blocker etc etc in your favor, and the rules are set up in your favor...I'm guessing a one-sided competition IS fair play.

And laws that differ from state to state arn't really a standardized set of rules.

And the reason I brought up the dictionary's definition is because we also call hunters "sportsmen". Ironic term if I've ever heard one, but its one thats been passed down for generations, possibly without thought to the meaning. I mean, we don't call football players or NASCAR drivers sportsmen...even though they are the ones playing sports. Maybe its just a term a group of people want to label themselves as to feel cooler.

Folks like me...hehe, yep we sure keep it interesting. And really out west is a broad area. I mean, sure does take a lot of stalking using a spotting scope and a magnum rifle. Guess you're selective reading popped up and your reflex foot to mouth happened. Because as I said in a later message it was a JOKE beeeeecause that whole line isn't an point at all just, "well you haven't done it here" *spit*. So tell me how its done out west to make it a sport.


OH yeah JD, I do enjoy hunting, just a different game. I still don't consider it a sport.
 
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I mean, sure does take a lot of stalking using a spotting scope and a magnum rifle. Guess you're selective reading popped up and your reflex foot to mouth happened. Because as I said in a later message it was a JOKE beeeeecause that whole line isn't an point at all just, "well you haven't done it here" *spit*. So tell me how its done out west to make it a sport.
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Wow, such great sophomoric statements. No selective reading, because if I had , I would have passed on your drivel. But rather than doing verbal combat with an unarmed opponent, I'll just say you might want to try that whole spotting scope and magnum rifle thing out West somewhere - pick a nice place, like Montana, Nevada or similar (no offense to anyone's state I omitted), and see just how easy it really is.

While you are certainly entitled to your misguided opinion, it is just that your opinion and one not really shared by many on these forums. Perhaps PETA would be more suited to your liking?
 
So your real issue is with the English Language:

Dictionary.com
Sportsman
1. a man who engages in sports, esp. in some open-air sport, as hunting, fishing, racing, etc.
2. a person who exhibits qualities especially esteemed in those who engage in sports, as fairness, courtesy, good temper, etc.

Merriam-Webster
Sportsman
1 : a person who engages in sports (as hunting or fishing)
2 : a person who shows sportsmanship

Dictionary.net
Sportsman \Sports"man\ (sp[=o]rts"man), n.;pl. Sportsmen (-men). One who pursues the sports of the field; one who hunts, fishes, etc. [1913 Webster]

So while your circular logic had everyone (me) chasing down some arbitrary correlation to an athletic competition sport, the reality is we are using the term correctly. Dictionaries are developed and updated through common usage. If I had to go out on a limb, I would guess it came from the times when the noblility would hunt for sport, even though they did not need to do so to eat.

How is Polk these days? I was stationed there in the mid-80's when 5th ID (Mech) was still there. Got to say I hated it there in general, but being able to rent bass boats up at Toledo Bend and fish made it bearable.
 
"Again, the rules arn't set up in the sake of fairness, but to keep hunters from wiping out the species like they've done so many times before."

That is so wrong that it hurts.

Hunters comprise the group which set up the system of rules under which we hunt by, today. "Sport" hunters are the ones who have spent more time and money for wildlife conservation, preservation and enhancement than any other group. The federal taxes on our gear are self-imposed: Pitman/Robinson, Dingell/Johnson. We're the ones whose system via license fees provides the money for wildlife research and for game wardens.

Market hunting was the cause of the demise of the passenger pigeon, along with clearing of their forest habitat. The bison were nearly exterminated as a matter of US Government policy, "...to remove the commissary of the Plains Indian." The value of ivory caused the widespread killing of elephants.

No species which is subject to sport hunting is in any danger; on the contrary, almost all are increasing in numbers.

Please, semi_problamatic, learn something about the subject. Please don't be part of the problem.
 
Semi problomatic - It's a...it's a, it's a

Enjoyable pastime

Chance to get away

Relief from the pressures of everyday life

An adventure

It's like waiting for Christmas morning to open the presents!

It's suspenseful!

As I "sneak and peek" slowly from one ridgeline down into the hollow and up onto the next ridgeline. It takes me about an hour to move 100 yards, and my sense of discovery, awareness of my surroundings, and sense of being alive are so intense as to be intoxicating - absolutely addictive. Adrenaline and all of the hormones of being a living being are overwhelming for me.

Failure - no horns, no meat - so what?!! I have been ALIVE! What a RUSH. Heart, mind, soul - I EXIST, therefore I HUNT!

God is good!!
 
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Major Dave this is not about hunting being good or bad, I just don't consider it a sport. I've got nothing against hunting, hunters, anything like that. I just don't consider it a sport.

Well Polks still....Polk I guess. I'm from Mississippi so I like it more than most. I'm in 3-89, 10th MTN

AND I realize that NOW hunters put the most into conservation, but at the same time its not exactly voluntary. Taxes, hunting licenses, etc etc. I'm sure if they stopped limiting size, amount, and season of any animal hunted its days would be short numbered indeed. My argument wasn't about the killing of animals so much as it was that the rules weren't made to give the animals a better chance as they were made to keep the population up.

And I know the deff. of sportsman, which is why I said it was ironic. For hundreds of years they said the earth was flat....you do know the earth isn't flat, right? Just because popular belief is such, doesn't actually mean its true.
 
Off-topic:

I spent a fair amount of time in 10th MTN, up at Fort Drum - 2nd Bde mostly. I was the brigade motor officer for the first iteration of the Somalia deployment.

Funny how the 10th is at two of the worst posts in the US - Polk :barf: and Drum :barf:

Can't say I didn't learn a heck of a lot from both places, big influences on my life.
 
I'm sure if they stopped limiting size, amount, and season of any animal hunted its days would be short numbered indeed.
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If that is really what you believe, then I am sorry that you have not spent any time with real hunters and sportsmen.


Done.
 
Quite frankly it doesn't matter how many "real" hunters I've known. All that really matters is how many people hunt. It's great that there are hunters who would only take what they needed or whatever their standard may be, but the truth of the matter is there are all too many who would kill until they weren't able to find any more to kill. And it wouldn't matter if you only shot 1 or 3 a year, because they'd be shooting as many as they could as often as they could. As it is there are already people who have no scruples against shooting as many deer in a herd as they can at once during season; let alone those that shoot deer out of season. What if there were no limits and no seasons? You think they were put there for giggles? "The Man" just trying to hold you back? If so I've got a big golden bridge to sell you reeaalll cheap. I've heard people brag about killing up to 7 deer in one day. Which means all your reserve and self-superiority at being a "real" hunter would just mean bumbkiss. Glad it makes you feel good though.

Done. (I can do it too) *Sits here with his arms crossed and a smug look on his face* cut scene 2, exit stage left.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd have to hibernate 9 months out of the year at Drum.:eek:
 
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my dad took 9 deer a few years ago in ohio, took 2 days to do it, but he had a tag for each one, 7 land owner and his 2. it was perfectly legal. he had deer meat all year, and helped the farmer reduce the damage to his soybean fields all at the same time.

i see no problem with taking multiple deer in one day, especialy in the very badly overpopulated north east.
 
Major Dave this is not about hunting being good or bad, I just don't consider it a sport. I've got nothing against hunting, hunters, anything like that. I just don't consider it a sport....

And I know the deff. of sportsman, which is why I said it was ironic. For hundreds of years they said the earth was flat....you do know the earth isn't flat, right? Just because popular belief is such, doesn't actually mean its true.

I see. Since the ancient Babylonians believed the world was flat, our dictionaries today are wrong about hunting.
 
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