More Powerful, 9mm or 40 caliber?

Ballistic gel tests show that the 40 cal bullets punch a larger hole, penetrate as far or farther than the 9mm, and create a much larger wound channel than the 9mm. Further, heavier bullets carry more momentum and kinetic energy and therefore do better when striking bone.

Compare the 124grn 9mm with the 165grn 40s&w and the 147grn 9mm with the 180grn 40s&w. While they penetrate about the same distance, look at the difference in wound channels. Note that the 40s&w bullets of both weights create significantly larger wound channels than their equivalent 9mm bullets. Further, note that this test doesn't even bother with the 115grn 9mm bullets. Wound channel causes organ and tissue disruption which generates more blood loss and faster incapacitation.

BalisticGel.jpg


In addition, extensive FBI testing has repeatedly demonstrated the advantage of the 40s&w over the 9mm notwithstanding the 9mm crowd's fancy talking around the results.
 
Gentlemen, I'm over 60 years old, I was raised on .38 Spl's, .357's, .45 Colts, and .45 APC's. The only 9mm's I have any use for are the Browning Hi-Power and the Luger because they fit my hand well.
 
The FBI tests are kind of suspect, anyway, as they placed the fault for failure on the issued sidearm and cartridge, and not on poor tactics and execution by the agents involved in the shootout.

That gives them a mild scent of biased research.
 
That chart's been circulated around gun boards for longer than I can remember. It's dated, only ONE example of ONE instance from a controlled test with DATED gel. Even then, it's evidence...soft evidence to use a chart such as this to provide actual real world proof...
 
Not to mention many of the tests performed are YEARS ago, MLeake. As I said before, cartridge advancements have come a long way since then. I honestly think if one really thinks they have a factual, definitive answer then they better throw in the Golden Gate in for free...
 
MLeake

The FBI tests are kind of suspect, anyway, as they placed the fault for failure on the issued sidearm and cartridge, and not on poor tactics and execution by the agents involved in the shootout.

That gives them a mild scent of biased research.
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I agree that the FBI ignored the poor tactics and execution by the agents involved in the Miami Shootout. Such as taking their handguns out of their holsters and placing them under their thigh and on the seat.

I do not agree that the conclusions stated make the ammunition tests invalid. The tests' data may not support the conclusions but that does not make the tests invalid. I would say the conclusions are suspect not the test data.
COSteve

Ballistic gel tests show that the 40 cal bullets punch a larger hole, penetrate as far or farther than the 9mm, and create a much larger wound channel than the 9mm.
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Limiting the following to the handgun cartridges shown in the photo:
The photo of the ballistic gelatin in your posts shows temporary wound cavity. It is understood by physicians that most human vascular tissue is elastic and is not damaged to the extent shown in the photo. The temporary cavity does not cause hemorrhaging unless it is in the liver or spleen. The permanent cavity or crush cavity is limited to the vascular tissue that the bullet physically crushes and that causes hemorrhaging.
 
I really think people over complicate this issue to the nth degree. 9mm, 40, 45 they all pack a wallop. The real world isn't a video game, bad guys don't have health points. I wouldn't rely on 9mm any more or less than I'd rely on 45. It's all a crap shoot.
 
Note that the 40s&w bullets of both weights create significantly larger wound channels than their equivalent 9mm bullets.
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Significant? Are we looking at the same picture? Because I'm seeing maybe 0.05" of difference.

Wound channel causes organ and tissue disruption which generates more blood loss and faster incapacitation.
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How much faster? If I shoot a 5 gallon bucket with a .40 and then shoot a new one with a 9mm, am I going to be shocked by how much faster the .40 hole drains?
 
Recoil and kinetic energy are easy enough to measure. Stopping power? Good luck! Between these two it's more about bullet placement and possibly bullet design.
 
Ballistic gel tests show that the 40 cal bullets punch a larger hole, penetrate as far or farther than the 9mm, and create a much larger wound channel than the 9mm. That is certainly not always the case, as some 9mm rounds will outpenetrate the .40, even using rounds from the same batch during the test. The results will likely vary enough to "wash out" against each other. Compare different rounds and the results are even less certain. Agree?

Further, heavier bullets carry more momentum and kinetic energy and therefore do better when striking bone.That is making the assumption that a 9mm needs any help penetrating any bone in the human body, which it does not. Furthermore, there is nothing in the human body that will hinder the 9mm, but allow the .40 to pass. If anything, the bullet SD will determine what will do better, and that is caliber independent.

Compare the 124grn 9mm with the 165grn 40s&w and the 147grn 9mm with the 180grn 40s&w. While they penetrate about the same distance, look at the difference in wound channels. Note that the 40s&w bullets of both weights create significantly larger wound channels than their equivalent 9mm bullets. Further, note that this test doesn't even bother with the 115grn 9mm bullets. Wound channel causes organ and tissue disruption which generates more blood loss and faster incapacitation.As was said above, the wound channel is insignificant in incapacitation. It is not enough to be a fight-stopper, and the adrenaline rush of fight-or-flight will counteract the small issues caused by the vascular damage and bruising. The person who posed the idea of shooting a 5-gal bucket of water is on the right track, but I'll take it a step further and say a 5-gal bucket filled with small diameter rubber hoses and sponge material, all containing the water. It would be even less of a difference in fluid loss.



In addition, extensive FBI testing has repeatedly demonstrated the advantage of the 40s&w over the 9mm notwithstanding the 9mm crowd's fancy talking around the results. Care to cite any of it? I sure can't, but I didn't make the claim. What I have seen from the FBI is more inline with the thought that the difference is minimal. This is evident with their reports on "stopping power" and bullet effectiveness.
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The biggest issue with caliber effectiveness discussions is where the focus is directed. The target is the determining factor in this argument, not the gun, or the bullet, or the surplus energy. It seems the majority of people want to overlook this most important aspect of the argument.
 
To add to the above post:

Yes, .40 S&W FMJ will always punch a 10mm hole whereas 9mm FMJ will always punch a 9mm hole.

However, 147gr 9mm has the ability to penetrate deeper than 180gr .40 S&W due to higher sectional density.

Sectional density of 147gr 9mm = 0.1657 // Sectional density of 180gr .40 S&W = 0.1607

For comparison purposes, SD of 115gr 9mm = 0.1296 // SD of 155gr .40 S&W = 0.1384

Sectional density according to Wikipedia is defined as,

"Sectional density is the ratio of an object's mass to its cross-sectional area. It conveys how well an object's mass is distributed (by its shape) to overcome resistance. For illustration, a needle can penetrate a target medium with less force than a coin of the same mass. When a projectile is in flight or impacting an object, it is the sectional density of that projectile which will determine how efficiently it can overcome the resistance to air or object. The greater the sectional density is for a projectile the greater its efficiency is and therefore ability to overcome the resistance of air and object."

The reason a heavier bullet will usually penetrate deeper than a lighter bullet is because a heavier bullet of the same caliber will always have greater sectional density than the lighter bullet.

Heavier bullets do not penetrate deeper than lighter (middle weight bullets is more accurate) bullets due to greater momentum and energy as in many cases, the lighter bullet will have greater momentum and energy than the heavier bullet.
 
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.357SIG

" Care to cite any of it? I sure can't, but I didn't make the claim. What I have seen from the FBI is more inline with the thought that the difference is minimal. This is evident with their reports on "stopping power" and bullet effectiveness"

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Yes it's an old study, the original study in fact. But even with old tech 10mm lite they had a 97.5% success rate in making the 12" minimum. The 9mm only had a 67.5% success rate. Yes 9mm has improved, but so has the .40 cal version of the 10mm lite.

Care to cite where the FBI claims there is minimal difference.
 
AZ Hawk
"To add to the above post:

Yes, .40 S&W FMJ will always punch a 10mm hole whereas 9mm FMJ will always punch a 9mm hole.

No, a 9mm FMJ with a rounded nose will punch a hole approximately 60% of 9mm. With the slight flat nose of a .40 the hole will be a bit more than 60% of 10mm

However, 147gr 9mm has the ability to penetrate deeper than 180gr .40 S&W due to higher sectional density.

Sectional density of 147gr 9mm = 0.1657 // Sectional density of 180gr .40 S&W = 0.1607

For comparison purposes, SD of 115gr 9mm = 0.1296 // SD of 155gr .40 S&W = 0.1384

Only if you're talking about FMJ. For HP you have to consider the expanded diameter.

Sectional density according to Wikipedia is defined as,

"Sectional density is the ratio of an object's mass to its cross-sectional area. It conveys how well an object's mass is distributed (by its shape) to overcome resistance. For illustration, a needle can penetrate a target medium with less force than a coin of the same mass. When a projectile is in flight or impacting an object, it is the sectional density of that projectile which will determine how efficiently it can overcome the resistance to air or object. The greater the sectional density is for a projectile the greater its efficiency is and therefore ability to overcome the resistance of air and object."

The reason a heavier bullet will usually penetrate deeper than a lighter bullet is because a heavier bullet of the same caliber will always have greater sectional density than the lighter bullet.

Again, only if you are talking about FMJ.

Heavier bullets do not penetrate deeper than lighter (middle weight bullets is more accurate) bullets due to greater momentum and energy as in many cases, the lighter bullet will have greater momentum and energy than the heavier bullet. "

Energy is not really a big factor in penetration. It is primarily responsible for the size of the TSC. Momentum is the main factor in penetration. For example look at the HST line. The 147 9mm and the 180 .40have the least energy, expand the most and penetrate the most. As long as you are comparing the same line of ammo it's pretty rare for a lighter bullet to have more momentum.__________________
 
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1) ...Whatever. :cool:

2) Yes and no... A bullet with more sectional density will always have a greater chance to penetrate deeper, no matter if it's JHP or FMJ.

3) You just repeated what I stated; energy matters not in penetration. The 155gr .40 S&W > 165gr > 180gr in terms of momentum. You can do the math! :D It's always sectional density.
 
Weight (Grains), Velocity (FPS), Momentum (MV), Kinetic Energy (KE), Penetration in Bare Gel (BR)

Speer Gold Dot .40 S&W 155gr @1176 fps, 26.1 mv, 475 KE |BR 10.7"

Speer Gold Dot .40 S&W 165gr @1109 fps, 26.1 mv, 450 KE |BR 13.1"

Speer Gold Dot .40 S&W 180gr @1000 fps, 25.7 mv, 399 KE |BR 14.5"
 
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AZ Hawk
"Weight (Grains), Velocity (FPS), Momentum (MV), Kinetic Energy (KE), Penetration in Bare Gel (BR)

Speer Gold Dot .40 S&W 155gr @1176 fps, 26.1 mv, 475 KE |BR 10.7"

Speer Gold Dot .40 S&W 165gr @1109 fps, 26.1 mv, 450 KE |BR 13.1"

Speer Gold Dot .40 S&W 180gr @1000 fps, 25.7 mv, 399 KE |BR 14.5" "


You left out some very important data that's needed to make sense of these numbers.
Expansion in bare gell

155 GD .84
165 GD .65
180 GD .59
 
How about this:

Federal HST Ballistics in bare gelatin.

155gr HST - 1198 fps @ 493 KE // 10.5" Penetration, 0.96" Expansion // Sectional Density = 0.138

165gr HST - 1156 fps @ 489 KE // 12.0" Penetration, 0.87" Expansion // Sectional Density = 0.147

180gr HST - 1041 fps @ 433 KE // 12.0" Penetration, 0.96" Expansion // Sectional Density = 0.161

155gr HST has more momentum, more kinetic energy, the same expansion but has less overall penetration than the 180gr HST.

HST ballistics through heavy clothing:

155gr HST - 1198 fps @ 493 KE // 11.0" Pen, 0.72" Ex

165gr HST - 1156 fps @ 489 KE // 13.25" Pen, 0.67" Ex

180gr HST - 1060 fps @ 448 KE // 13.5" Pen, 0.70" Ex
 
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