More open carry guys scaring the public

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Uh, if I walk in my favorite eatery and some idiot is there with a long gun in tow, I am not going to be respectful. They have not been respectful. I will calmly ask that they leave and of they do not, I will call 911 and indicate the the operator that I am in distress and am my peace is being disturbed due to the moron or morons in the restaurant toting their long gun. This is ridiculous, counterproductive to our cause and it's time we policed our own ranks. We are backing many good LEO's here in Texas sympathetic to our cause into a corner. Enough already! If the carrying of a long arm disturbs the peace, then by law, a Texas peace officer has the authority to stop the imbecile or imbeciles from doing it.
 
You can call it a Red herring or a Rutabega ....That does not make it not so.
That is correct. What makes it a red herring isn't the fact that I pointed it out. What makes it a red herring is that it fits the definition of a "red herring".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

"The idiom "red herring" is used to refer to something that misleads or distracts from the relevant or important issue."

In this case the important issue is that the strategy you are endorsing/defending has been demonstrated to have the opposite effect from what is intended.

The red herring is your attempt to begin a debate on whether the right that was restricted was important/practical or not.
Answer that question........ and if you say "At least it was allowed" (in theory) ..... I'm gonna scream.
I'm sure that answering it that way would distress you since it is an answer that can not be refuted. But I'll answer it and since the part of the answer that frustrates you has already been adequately and accurately stated elsewhere, I'll refrain from pointing it out again.
Of what use is "unloaded open carry", tactical or otherwise, other than to say your Constitutional rights were not being violated?"
1. This is a red herring in the context of this debate. You want to try to make a point of the practicality (impracticality) of the right that was restricted, but the REAL point is that the right (however practical, useful, useless or impractical) WAS restricted, and it was restricted as a result of the type of demonstrations that you are defending/endorsing. Demonstrations which were conceived and carried out to EXPAND the right, not to have it abrogated.

2. It is extremely short-sighted, self-centered and egotistical for anyone to undertake a strategy that results (or can easily be foreseen to result) in the restriction or abrogation of rights based purely on their personal assessment of how practical, useful, or valuable that right is. They are not the only persons affected and while they may find the right useless, there may be others who have a very different opinion.

So your line of argument is distressing in two ways. First, it's based on the idea that it's acceptable (even desirable) for a small group to take a course of action that results in the rights of an entire state's population being restricted if that small group feels that the rights in question aren't of sufficient practicality for them. That whole concept is absolutely repugnant.

And second, it's distressing because you can't seem to see that it's not relevant to the discussion at hand since the issue isn't the IMPORTANCE of the rights being endangered (or the assessment of that importance by a small group) but rather that the rights ARE being endangered.
If the latter is the case, it also furthers the goal of the other side by furher dividing gun owners into those that are happy they got to keep something, anything, even if it was useless and those who were not......
What divided gun owners was the decision of a few persons to begin a series of ill-advised demonstrations. Those demonstrations resulted in adverse publicity for ALL gun owners and resulted in anti-gun legislation being passed.

That kind of a SNAFU should divide gun owners in the sense that the general gun community needs to pillory groups that undertake strategies that have been shown to result, or can easily be foreseen to result in additional restrictions being enacted. If a small group of people screw it up, or try to screw it up for everyone, they should NOT expect to be held up as heroes. Even if they are incapable of foreseeing the outcome which is obvious to most, they should seek advice and LISTEN to the advice instead of rushing in like the proverbial male bovine in the ceramic diningware store.

This is a lesson that we ALL need to learn, and the sooner the better.
 
Posted by Will Beararms: ...if I walk in my favorite eatery and some idiot is there with a long gun in tow, ... I will calmly ask that they leave and of they do not, I will call 911...
Two comments:
  1. If you do not own or manage "your favorite eatery", you have absolutely no right whatsoever to ask anyone to leave;
  2. if you do own or manage it, calmly asking an "idiot with a long gun in tow" to leave could prove very risky indeed.
 
What is permissible is not always profitable. The owner of my favorite eatery would thank me for asking the idiot who walked in with a long gun to leave. The law in TX is clear. If you cause a disturbance of the peace with your carrying of a long gun in public, you are a violator.
 
We all have two worlds to deal with.

There is the the reality world that includes rocks, trees, birds,and other people.

And, there is the world that only exists in our own heads.

It is good to know the difference. "Should be....." is a clue.

If you or I walk into a local donut shop carrying concealed, so long as the weapon remains a non-issue, it's about a donut. Maybe about some coffee. The world is a safer,more comfortable place.

If I walk into a donut shop with an AK or an AR, it is not about a donut. It is about imposing my idea of "should be", my idea of utopia, on other people. It might be lawful, but I am still imposing. Whether I admit it or not, I am looking for confrontation,conflict... And then my buddies and I can yuk it up over reactions, or I can argue with an LEO... drama,etc.

Now, maybe in the world that exists only in my own head, I was campaigning for gun rights, doing an honorable thing.

But in the real world, decent, everyday friends, neighbors, and citizens become upset. Day in, day out, for thousands of days, there were no AK's at the donut shop.

They call the law. They think of Sandy Hook.

If we AK/AR toters have a great day, the police say to the moms, dads, kids: "Sorry, these guys have a right to carry."

And the moms, dads, and kids call the news channel. They call Dianne Feinstein,etc. They all call Congress.

Let me ask the open carry advocates this: If/when you do inspire another anti-freedom law, do you have the bankroll and lawyers to fight the legal challenge? Or do you just light fires for other people to put out?

Oh no. That would be living in the real world.

You might also consider that when you open carry your AR in the Safeway, every concealed carry person in the store is 90% prepared to to turn you into a "wet cleanup on aisle 4" Your life has stepped into the world in their head.
 
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We all have two worlds to deal with.

There is the the reality world that includes rocks, trees, birds,and other people...

Just so. Really, that was the best explanation of the situation that I've ever read.
 
This next legislative session, the goal was to begin pushing for the legalization of Open Carry, but I suspect that will be a really hard sell now.
If these nuts keep this up we will probably not get open carry, really makes me wonder whose side they are on.
 
Question for gun owners: if 30 men with unslung rifles came in to a restaurant, would you not assume that they are there to rob the place (as some employees have recently)? What else could explain their presence with that gear? (Assuming there is no planned OC demonstration, and that vendors, patrons, and police have not been warned.)

How can you tell who is a "good guy" with a gun vs a "bad guy" with a gun---particularly since the "bad guys" almost certainly think of themselves as "good guys." :eek:

If you wait to cautiously observe the situation develop ("Don't worry, honey, I'm sure there is a good explanation for this") haven't you lost the ability to respond quickly to save yourself and others in case of attack?

It seems like it may be only a short time before an OC carry demonstration turns into a firefight.
 
That is certainly one of the issues.

In many cases, someone goes in first and asks permission from the staff and advises the customers that a demonstration is forth-coming. We still end up with a public relations loss.

In the event of an unannounced "demonstration", a lot of terrible things could probably happen. All of which will depend on the mannerisms of the demonstrators, and the interpretations of those mannerisms and the mind-set of the those reacting.

All of that (and more) is why it's such a terrible idea, from pretty much every angle.
 
I don't get this 'demonstration' thing. What are they demonstrating (against)? They're already allowed to carry long guns. If they want to demonstrate against something, as a group you demonstrate civil disobedience. (And in this case most of us know how that would turn out. Probably a mass arrest.) The only thing they're demonstrating is their ignorance and/or stupidity. They're just doing it to provoke others, not to educate others or further their cause.
 
How can you tell who is a "good guy" with a gun vs a "bad guy" with a gun...

That is the crux of the issue. It almost invariably results in the po-po being called with the requisite contact, securing of the firearm for the duration of the contact, request for ID, computer checks etc. They are also invariably filmed with the purpose of catching the bad old policeman violating somebody's rights.

Both sides have screwed these up on occasion. But I can't help but see it all as manufactured drama that results in an unnecessary diversion of already scarce resources.
 
'Pushing the limits' doesn't always lead to restrictions

Back in 2010 several open-carriers went to a restaurant in the lovely state of Wisconsin. Open carry is legal there without a permit. They had handguns, not long guns, but they also did not blithely cooperate with the cops and several of them were arrested; all because some fellow diners 'felt uncomfortable and called 911 to verify no laws were being broken'. This gained state-wide notoriety.


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...isconsin-open-carry-update-on-culvers-arrest/


Those men that were arrested were compensated handsomely in the subsequent lawsuit against the cops.

Here is a poingant statement from the article which the courts had to disagree with:
"According to Madison Police, if ONE person is ‘worried’, even though there is no disturbance, your constitutional rights mean nothing."

My point in all this is that gun rights enthusiasts successfully made the gun-grabbing cops and the uninformed bystanders into the bad guys/aloof, uninformed citizens by doing the very things that some of you claim hurt our cause. To wit, gun rights have expanded to include concealed carry in the wake of this victory by those 'attention seeking gun nuts who scare people'
 
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To wit, gun rights have expanded to include concealed carry in the wake of this victory by those 'attention seeking gun nuts who scare people'

With the help of a lot of pro-gun cops, we managed that same thing here in MO; sans the manufactured drama.
 
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret said:
My point in all this is that gun rights enthusiasts successfully made the gun-grabbing cops and the uninformed bystanders into the bad guys/aloof, uninformed citizens by doing the very things that some of you claim hurt our cause. To wit, gun rights have expanded to include concealed carry in the wake of this victory by those 'attention seeking gun nuts who scare people'
There's a HUGE difference between five men eating at a restaurant while open carrying their handguns, and the types of in-your-face open carry protests we're talking about. And the problem is that way too many people can't tell the difference.
 
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret said:
My point in all this is that gun rights enthusiasts successfully made the gun-grabbing cops and the uninformed bystanders into the bad guys/aloof, uninformed citizens by doing the very things that some of you claim hurt our cause. To wit, gun rights have expanded to include concealed carry in the wake of this victory by those 'attention seeking gun nuts who scare people'

Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret said:
They had handguns, not long guns,

and I'll bet that they had their guns holstered, never touched them during their dinners and did not pose for pictures with their guns drawn in the restaurant?

In other words, what they did was actually nothing at all like what these "demonstrations" do and few, if any of us, have ever said that reasonable, responsible, ordinary open carry hurts our cause.
 
[this isn't the same as] the types of in-your-face open carry protests we're talking about.

THEY GOT DRAGGED AWAY BY HALF A DOZEN FREAKING COPS!!!!


and I'll bet that they had their guns holstered, never touched them during their dinners and did not pose for pictures with their guns drawn in the restaurant?

In other words, what they did was actually nothing at all like what these "demonstrations" do


What other caveats have you got for us on why this mass-arrest is different?
1) Guys were carrying guns
2) People got scared and called 911
3) The cops arrested them when they didn't cooperate

Here is the difference: The result of this public demonstration undeniably HELPED 2nd Amendment Rights across an entire state.

I'd say this example flies in the face of all of you who have been saying OPEN CARRY IS HURTING OUR CAUSE.
 
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Lt. Skrumpledonk: You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding. You can't honestly believe this is the same as an in-your-face open carry protest? If you truly can't see the difference here, then you're part of the problem that this thread is addressing.

Lt. Skrumpledonk said:
THEY GOT DRAGGED AWAY BY HALF A DOZEN FREAKING COPS!!!!
So? That doesn't mean it's the same as an in-your-face open carry protest. They were just five guys peacefully eating in a restaurant. The cops overreacted. But the cops' overreaction doesn't mean these guys were the same as the morons who perform the types of open carry protests we're talking about.

The difference here is how the five guys were acting in the first place, and that makes all the difference in the world: That's why the political results of this incident were positive, not negative.
 
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