more from JPFO on Florida traffic stop and tasering of driver, and another item too.

alan

New member
The "other item" first. Heard on the hourly newscast a few moments ago the following. House of Representatives rejected renewal of part of Patriot Act dealing with library and book store records. Section 215?? Bush threatens veto. Interesting, no? JPFO material follows below.


ALERT FROM JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP
America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization

June 15, 2005

JPFO ALERT: Don't Miss The Key Message of Our Taser Alert


Recently we sent out a JPFO Alert
(http://www.jpfo.org/alert20050610.htm) that included a
link to a video of an officer pulling over a woman driver
for speeding and equipment violations, but then arresting
her for driving on a suspended license. The woman
protested the stop, tried to use her cell phone, and
delayed in her response to get out of the car. In very
short order the officers used the high-voltage electric
Taser device on her to compel her cooperation.

The video with live audio and added commentary from a
police representative, was available for on-line. Viewers
could get the same facts that we did.

Our Alert clearly stated we did not draw a final conclusion
about whether the officers used excessive force or whether
the arrest was justified. We wrote:

"Was this arrest proper? Did the officer use the
appropriate amount of force? The legal answers are for a
judge and jury."

We stated our main message:

"For gun owners, the message is clear. This video shows one
real way that "gun control" laws will be enforced against
you. As registration and licensing and other so-called
reasonable "gun control" laws are enacted, your risk of
breaking those laws increases. A paperwork violation will
be enforced; the enforcers will use batons, Tasers, pepper
spray, or sidearms to take you down and bring you in."

A handful of viewers contacted us to challenge the Alert.
We welcome debate. Here are some of the challenges and our
brief responses to them:


Challenge No. 1: The driver "thought that being a
black woman would protect her" from the consequences
of breaking the speed law, not wearing seat belts, an
equipment violation and her "big mouth."

Response: There is no way to know what the driver thought
about the race issue, because that information is not in
the video. The driver was black, the officer was white.
There could have been racial tension both ways. We don't
think race is a good reason to employ the Taser, or not to
employ the Taser. Moreover, it was not the police
officer's job to punish what he might have thought was the
driver's attitude; on the other hand, we don't assume that
the officer was racist at all. The final decision on that
question, however, is for a judge and jury who receive all
of the facts.

Challenge No. 2: The woman should not have argued with
the officer. She should have saved her arguments for
the judge.

Response: Sometimes it might be a good idea not to argue
with an officer on the site of an arrest, as a matter of
prudence. On the other hand, standing up for your rights
at the moment of their being violated can be the most
important thing you do. This driver might have been quite
smart to proclaim her rights on the spot, because then her
position is clear on the recorded video. She spoke loudly
and helped record every event that took place. Nobody
could later claim that her "clever lawyer" created her
legal defenses out of thin air. More to the point: why is
verbally protesting a police action and proclaiming your
rights a good reason to increase the force used against
you?

Challenge No. 3: The Taser attack would never have
become necessary if the woman had simply turned off
her cell phone in mid-sentence and gotten out of her
car when ordered to do so.


Response: This speculation is probably true.
Nevertheless, we have to ask the question: if the driver
had been a Hollywood star (black or white), or a local
politician or government official, would the officers have
escalated to Taser force so rapidly? Would a city council
person (black or white) been allowed to finish her
telephone call to alert her family of her arrest before
being taken in?

Authorities tell us that the Taser is a "a non-lethal
alternative to using a firearm." We have to ask: should an
officer use Taser-level force against a person who is non-
violently delaying compliance with orders to get out of a
car? Have we become a nation of people in such a great
hurry that we expect our police officers to get control and
dispose of suspects immediately, without extending common
courtesies or a certain amount of patience?

We aren't second-guessing the police officer in this case;
he might have been doing exactly what he was supposed to
do. We are warning the average, ordinary hard-working
citizen and retired senior citizen about the kind of force
that police officers can use to compel your submission.
As the gun laws proliferate, ordinary citizen gun owners
will run an increasing risk of violating some law. This
video shows how the laws are enforced -- using powerful
equipment -- against citizens who aren't famous or well-
connected.

Challenge No. 4: The woman driver did endanger other
people by her speeding, driving with a brake light
out, and driving on a suspended license.

Response: The video provides no evidence that anyone was
actually endangered. Some of the popular police video TV
programs do show how speeders and fleeing felons blast
through crowded traffic and hit other cars or terrify other
drivers. That kind of driver misconduct threatens and
causes immediate harm to others. This video showed nothing
like that. This woman engaged, at most, in dangerous
activity.

Gun owners should understand the difference between
"dangerous activity" and "endangering others." It may be
dangerous to drive 100 mph, but on an open Arizona highway
without traffic, only the driver is endangered -- nobody
else. Similarly, carrying a loaded sidearm is more
"dangerous" than carrying an unloaded sidearm, because the
chance of unintended discharge or misuse of the loaded
sidearm is greater. Nevertheless, we do not say that a
person carrying a firearm in hand or in a holster,
concealed or openly, is always "endangering other people."

Getting a traffic ticket for speeding does not mean you
were necessarily endangering anyone but yourself. Traffic
tickets are typically for rules violations, not for violent
crimes. Similarly, driving with a brake light out or a
broken windshield, or driving on a suspended license, are
all rules violations, not violent crimes.

Most of the "gun control" laws in America establish
standards of conduct or paperwork requirements. These laws
do not prohibit violent crimes -- they punish non-violent
violations. It is a federal felony to fail to submit to
paperwork requirements to purchase firearms from dealers,
for example, even though no endangerment is involved.

Bottom Line:

We recognized from the outset that the police officer in
the video might have used appropriate force in the
situation, depending upon the facts and the law that may
apply. Our Alert addresses a different issue by helping
gun owners understand how paperwork violations and non-
violent conduct can reap some serious physical
consequences, even before trial and conviction. This woman
driver didn't have a weapon, yet she was Tasered. What
happens to you, a peaceful but armed citizen, when you
argue with a police officer at a traffic stop?

JPFO fights against "gun control" laws and policies that
lay legal traps for citizens. We work to re-establish
firearms ownership as a great American heritage. We don't
want firearms possession by itself to be a reason that
officers use to escalate force against nonviolent citizens.
It is important for Americans to know what that escalated
force looks like. Agree or disagree with the Florida
officers in this case, this video shows the realities that
citizens need to know.

- The Liberty Crew


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JPFO mirror site: http://www.jpfo.net

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LET JPFO KEEP YOU INFORMED -- Sign up today for JPFO Alerts!
Just send a blank e-mail to jpfo_alerts-subscribe@topica.com

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Regain your freedom - download the song "Justice Day" today!
http://www.rebelfirerock.com/downloadjd.html

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Original Material in JPFO ALERTS is Copyright 2005 JPFO, Inc.
Permission is granted to reproduce this alert in full, so long
as the following JPFO contact information is included:

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
PO Box 270143
Hartford, Wisconsin 53027

Phone: 1-262-673-9745
Order line: 1-800-869-1884 (toll-free!)
Fax: 1-262-673-9746
Web: http://www.jpfo.org/
 
The video provides no evidence that anyone was
actually endangered.

I was kinda sorta halfway agreeing with the article until I got there. Using that statement, if it is not dagerous for me to speed through town, I should be able to do so? It is probably not dangerous for Jef Gordon to drive a muscel car down the highway at 3am, when no one else is on, at 160, but should he be able to?
 
What else?

It seems pretty simple. She was lawfully under arrest. She was instructed to exit the vehicle (even if not under arrest, still covered under Pennsylvania v. Mims). What options would you have preferred? OC spray, a straight baton, maybe a good old-fashioned head lock? Or should he have let her exit the vehicle whenever the mood struck her? He gave more than ample warning and she didn't seem to care. By the way, this was probably the most extreme acting job I've ever seen after being tased.
 
I love how they refuse to speculate whether race was an issue with the driver or officer, yet they speculate wildly about social class and celebrity. Sounds lke the woman got what she bargained for and the JFPO is seeing gremlins where there are none.
 
Whats next, lethal force for refusing to exit your vehicle?

I still ask, how would you have handeled the situtation?

Club? Broken bones and injury.
Forced her out? Risked more injury and broken bones.
Pepper spray? Risk suffication, potential temporary loss of sight, potential problems if she has repatory problems.

Let her go? She was only speeding, had busted equipment, and driving while her license was suspended and resisting arrest.

Sit her out, until she was ready to be arrested? Who actually is just going to decide an hour later that they are ready to be arrested? And, is it the officers job to sit around for hours until she decides she is ready to be arrested?
 
Waiting her out?

Why do we think that when 37 seconds pass from the time the officer first orders her out of the car till he tazes her is too long to wait? 37 seconds, folks.

Are we now so militarized and accustomed to such militarization that if we don't have instant obedience, we can up the force continuum? Is it truly a sign of weakness that we have to wait 37 seconds?

While I realize that the officer needs to be obeyed, is 37 seconds too long? Hell, it would take me longer than a minute to find my registration and insurance papers. Will I get tazed if stopped and it takes that long to produce the required papers?

Criminy people, 37 seconds.....
 
She wasn't looking for her registration, she was resisting arrest. What if she had her hand in her purse (potentially holding a weapon)? Should he wait 37 seconds for her to remove it? In a potentially dangerous situation (as every car stop is) 37 seconds can be an awfully long time. That's about 7 times the length of the average gunfight.
 
SCCop, what does the length of an average gunfight have to do with anything? Does that mean you think he would have been justified in tasing her after 5 seconds? Why give her the five seconds? Tase her immediately! It would take less than a second for her to pull out a gun and aim.

If she had her hand in her purse, I wouldn't expect the cop to wait 37 seconds. I would expect him to immediately order her to remove her hand. I think it's a safe bet that her left hand was visible and her right hand was holding the phone to her ear.

(voiceover, explaining things retroactively... AFTER she's been tased twice...)
We're not going to get on the ground and fight with her and wrestle with her. She needs to turn over, place her hands behind her back so we can handcuff her. That way, no one's being injured in this ???. We haven't patted her down. No one's searched her to see if she has any weapons or anything on her person, and if we were to go in and rush her, and try to place hands on her and place her under arrest, she could injure all of us or injure herself, and we didn't want that to happen. So that's why she received a second five-second tase.
Uhh, excuse me officers. What do you call being tased if it's not being injured? Those barbs go into the skin. They don't attach with fast-acting superglue. They even say that there's blood. But no, that's not the injury we're looking for. Nothing to see here. Move along.
 
You have mistaken my point completely. Earlier posts had made it seem like 37 seconds is the snap of a finger. My point was that it is actually a substantial amount of time in an arrest situation. The injury from probes is very minor. I have seen the device used on many people and only two of them had ANY bleeding. The resulting "injury" is no more noticeable than a bee sting and is LESS painful. Most people (myself included) don't even feel the probes when they're pulled out. This is way preferable to other methods at the officer's disposal, including physically removing her from the car. Apparently some people feel she should have been left in the car to exit in her own time. They are entitled to their opinion, but this gives the driver (arrestee actually) time to think about an escape strategy, access a weapon, drive off, etc. Don't think it hasn't happened before (costing officers their lives at times) and don't be mislead by the fact the driver is a female.
 
SCCop, not only are you required to gain immediate control in all circumstances, but we are required to immediately comply with your commands under penalty of force.

Thank you SCCop for answering my question.

For those that didn't quite get it, this is the police state mentality: Immediate Compliance.
 
SCCop
She wasn't looking for her registration, she was resisting arrest.
Talking on a phone is "resisting"?
What if she had her hand in her purse (potentially holding a weapon)? Should he wait 37 seconds for her to remove it? In a potentially dangerous situation (as every car stop is) 37 seconds can be an awfully long time. That's about 7 times the length of the average gunfight
Unless this peace officer had his pistol sights - a firearm - levelled on her head; what difference would it make?

If she had her hand on a firearm, intended to use it, what difference would it make trying to have her terminate her phonecall and disembark "right now"?

What would Officer PO have done had this BG waited for Officer PO to begin drawing his taser - and then suddenly drawn a pistol and put a bullet in his face? Would that have made him any safer?

I'd like to know exactly where Officer PO was standing when he got worked up and drew his taser ... right opposite the driver's door?
 
Phillip intoned:
P-U ... flatulence from the police state tin foil hat crowd.
Phillip, go back and look at all my posts. I doubt that you will find much, if anything, in the way of anti-police sentiment.

But then, it's much easier to dismiss something that you don't like to hear, by claiming the messenger is rotten, then to actually think about the message.

The last time I had a moving violation was in '76. Haven't had any since then. Ah gee, it must be because I haven't gotten caught, yes? Couldn't possibly be because I drive within the rules... Nah, nobody does that!

Last year, our little town had some problems with the police dept. and started an investigation. The Mayor and city council wouldn't release any info. The papers had a field day with this. I and a couple of other business owners stood up in a council meeting and publicly thanked the officers. Then I berated the Mayor and Council for keeping the whole thing hushed up, making it look like there was something to hide, much more than there was. Exacerbating the problem in the eyes of the townsfolk.

The whole thing started when the city manager was pulled over for speeding. He and two councilmen began a vendetta against the dept. This lead to two officers and the chief resigning. Rumors of corruption abounded. All of the rumors came from the city offices.

The upshot is that one councilman will not run for re-election and the other... Well, we have a good candidate to replace him. I'll be running for Mayor again and the city manager knows he has no chance of retaining his position should I get elected... and unlike the last election, There is no one else that will run against me. And I have the backing of the entire police force.

So Phillip, don't dismiss the messenger, simply because you disagree with the message.
 
I fail to see where immediate compliance = police state. Pennsylvania vs. Mims and Maryland vs. Wilson. Look them up. Yes if you are stopped and the officer directs you to exit the vehicle (whether under arrest or not) it is not optional. The Supreme Court has upheld this many times for officer safety. Like it or not, it's the law of the land.
 
beejebus....I have always done what the officer asked and have been polite..
and amisngly I have never been beaten with a nightstick nor tazered...go figure. Most of the time get off with a verbal warning. I knew I was guilty of what the officer said....so why get mean and nasty?
 
SCCop wrote:
I fail to see where immediate compliance = police state.

See, that's what happens when you don't read what was written. I never said, immediate compliance = police state. I said, police state mentality: Immediate Compliance.

Regardless of what those nine robes have ruled, it is the M E N T A L I T Y that bothers me. When I was in the service, this was expected. This was the rule. That's the military mindset. To be old enough to have seen this mentality work its way into the civilian world is disheartening.

You can continue to disagree with my perspective, just refrain from putting words into my mouth.
 
I guess it's a good thing that this nation doesn't operate on "mentality". Oddly enough most folks roam about pretty freely.
 
I guess it's a good thing that this nation doesn't operate on "mentality". Oddly enough most folks roam about pretty freely.
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