Montana Traffic Stop

Everyone extolling the officer's "brilliant" action.. while I'm happy with the outcome, generally speaking it was a poorly executed stop.

In the other discussion, you'll find some excellent observations by trained LEOs. Two examples:

1) Officer had the flashlight in his gun hand, contrary to most training.

2) Officer approached from the window, not from the B-pillar as is often taught.
 
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Everyone extolling the officer's "brilliant" action.. while I'm happy with the outcome, generally speaking it was a poorly executed stop.

In the other discussion, you'll find some excellent observations by trained LEOs. Two examples:

1) Officer had the flashlight in his gun hand, contrary to most training.

2) Officer approached from the window, not from the B-pillar as is often taught.

The shooting happened after the officer had already approached. That eliminates the deficiencies in his approach from this discussion. The flashlight OTOH should have been in his weak hand however from the video it appears that having it in his strong hand allowed him to deflect the revolver in the opposite direction he planed on moving. It also didn't seem to delay his draw, the reason for keeping the strong hand free.

He won the fight despite the element of surprise. He kept his composure despite taking fire. He should be commended not ridiculed
 
I cannot imagine what that trooper must have felt when the gun clicked in his face. Sheer panic followed by sheer relief most likley wow. I'm glad the BD was stupid and accidently had a fired case in the live chamber. He got what he deserved it seems as well, the officer started lighting him up. He scored a fatal hit even though he was throwing bullets like candy because of the adrenaline.
 
No Kidding :eek: is right. Thats true the BG does get a shot closer too him then I originally though and the 41 magnum is a serious round. The vid really shows that holy sh*& reaction and once he gets over that how he returns fire.
 
Warrior I: Anyone know what the trooper was using ?

Glock 22, .40 S&W.

threegun: ..ridicule..

After action analysis isn't ridicule, it is a formal process to generate lessons learned so that situations like this can be avoided. There's no room for preconceived notions, bias, or ego in such discussions.
 
After action analysis isn't ridicule, it is a formal process to generate lessons learned so that situations like this can be avoided. There's no room for preconceived notions, bias, or ego in such discussions.

IMO and the opinion of some others it was. Particularly the way you kinda scolded folks for calling the officers handling of the situation "brilliant". Then list a couple of reasons one of which was not relevant and the other "mistake" possibly saved his life.

I think he delayed or paused way to long......I didn't critique him because I have never had a 41 magnum detonate next to my head with someone trying to kill me. So who in the heck am I to bust his eggs. He won. He's alive the scum bag is dead........just "brilliant".
 
He definitley did react pretty well to the gunshot. This could be because of sheer surprise, but he does fade to the back quarter panel and unholsters his weapon. He then proceeds to barage the car with adrenline fueled gunfire and scored a fatal hit. Id say luck played a major factor but all in all the officer reacted well. I saw what looked like his training kick in after the shot. His fire discipline was bad but thats because of adrenline and he nailed the guy anyway.
 
Again, Hamilton is a small town. This stuff is out of the ordinary there, where as it might be a more regular occurrence in our larger cities. According to their website, they have only 9 patrol officers to keep up 24/7 patrols. Up until the 1950s they only wore a badge and cowboy hat as a uniform upon their civilian clothes.

I think the guy did fine. And on an internet gun forum I don't think it's an action analysis, it's called armchair quarterbacking in my opinion.
 
TylerD: Id say luck played a major factor..

Howso?

Stiofan: ..on an internet gun forum I don't think it's an action analysis, it's called armchair quarterbacking in my opinion.

Like many things in life, it is what the people involved make of it. Training Manuals and protocol are available in various open sources, and many posters on the forum have extensive LE, military, and protective service experience, whereas others come from academia and others just have a treasure trove of life experience to share.

threegun: ..the other "mistake" possibly saved his life.

Not sure what you are specifically talking about, but some posters in this thread have mentioned him using the flashlight to swat away the driver's revolver. This is not what happened. After dropping the hammer on a spent cartridge, Davis pulled the revolver back into the cabin after Officer Jessop swung with his right hand. Davis then presented the revolver again and fired a round.
 
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think the guy did fine. And on an internet gun forum I don't think it's an action analysis, it's called armchair quarterbacking in my opinion.

Precisely!

Not sure what you are specifically talking about,

BookerT.......Have you ever had a revolver pulled and pointed at your face? Have you had a round go off near your head only barrel pointed in your direction? All while knowing that you could die very shortly. I haven't and most of us haven't.

Your post....
Everyone extolling the officer's "brilliant" action.. while I'm happy with the outcome, generally speaking it was a poorly executed stop.
just smells of the armchair internet quarterback. You make a kinda smug comment in it as if to say you could have done better.

If you indeed were concerned about some inappropriate tactics used by the officer you could have discussed them without injecting the sarcasm to help those LE officers on this board from making the same mistake. Instead you take a slap at those of us who thought he did well and then proclaim his actions as poor.
 
..ever had a revolver pulled and pointed at your face? Have you had a round go off near your head..barrel pointed in your direction? All while knowing that you could die very shortly.

Yes (a Glock not a revolver); yes; and the thought didn't enter my conscious mind until many seconds later.

..injecting the sarcasm..Instead you take a slap at those of us who thought he did well and then proclaim his actions as poor.

I'm sorry you feel that way, however, I suspect you are projecting ego & emotion onto my comment, giving it meaning that is not there.

Nobody is (or was in the other thread) asserting the incident could have been totally avoided. Intoxicated individuals who are prepared to shoot police are inherently unpredictable and dangerous. Going into the situation, the probability of occurrence could have been reduced by a better approach to the vehicle and driver (that which is commonly trained), while the severity of hazard would have remained the same, reducing the overall risk. That said, Jessop's shooting was quite good, putting every round he fired into the vehicle and striking Davis at least once [edit: exactly once, fatally]. One of the more interesting facets of Jessop's account immediately following was he thought he had fired 7-8 shots, when in reality he nearly emptied the magazine. The perception of time and events by a mind under stress is a fascinating line of study.

Which brings up an interesting point of discussion, which is more important for police work: gun handling and shooting skills, or all the other police tradecraft that is employed every day when interacting with the public? Where should the training time and dollars be spent to yield the greatest benefit, both for the Officers and the taxpayer?

Perhaps you misunderstood my parlance. "Brilliant" was being used in the sense of spectacular, fantastic, superb. Not Isaac Newton.

Finally, personal safety is a personal responsibility. It is the underlying reason the majority of civilians who carry do so, taking control of their own security and not relying on external factors to fall into place. However hard I try, I simply don't find value in comments such as "it's a small town, things like this don't happen there very often." Complacency is just that, it doesn't matter where you are. Things big and small go wrong in my life from time to time, as they likely do in most people's lives, and when they do I always think back asking myself, "what could I have done differently to effect a more favorable outcome?" To answer that question requires absolutely no ego to get in the way, no personal bias, no preconceived notions about the situation or people involved. In the end, I can only control my actions, not those of other people.

Hopefully this incident will be a wake-up call for the other eight Officers to stay sharp every time they approach a vehicle, even in Hamilton.
 
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Let's take this a slightly different direction...

I'm cheering the outcome just like the rest of you. The good guy won. Pulling a gun on anyone, but especially a cop, is asking to be shot.

I believe a LEO has a duty to stop an armed felon, possibly or probably justifying the (was it 14 or 15) round barrage through the back window. While the immediate threat was clearly leaving the area, it is equally clear the driver was a threat to anyone/everyone else. Still the trooper is likely to face a civil suit from the family(if any) of the decedent scumbag. In Montana, that doesn't seem destined to get very far, and i hope it never gets started.

Now, what if that was you? You stop to render aid to a stalled vehicle, say. When you get to the window, man points a large gun at your head, you bat it away, and he fires, missing you while you spin and draw your own gun. He takes off, clearly leaving the area. You don't know if he's going to come back.

Can you shoot? Do you?
 
Daugherty:

In the previous thread discussing this incident (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407778) most of your questions were answered.

An inquiry justified the shooting. Jury took five hours to make the decision. 14 rounds were fired by Jessop.

http://www.ktvm.com/pages/6804528.php?contentType=4&contentId=5924692

http://www.kxlf.com/news/hamilton-police-officer-involved-in-shootout-cleared-in-inquest/

But it's a fine line, a somewhat similar case ended differently in Washington State:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011714625_copshooting28m.html

As a civilian, while there is state-to-state variance, if you are in a public area (such as a highway or freeway) and an attacker is driving away from you, firing on that vehicle will likely get you in seriously deep legal fecal matter, both civil and criminal. If the immediate threat has stopped, then you have time to flee and call police.
 
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Booker T

Luck played a major factor because if the BG had a live round in the chamber the officer would no longer have a face. That part was all luck and stupidity on the criminals part thankfully. For some reason, luckily, he had his 41 mag with an empty case over the chamber. No one can say how they would react as Threegun mentioned, and every situation is different. Agree with you on the watch your background when shooting like that, you can get into serious trouble or worse kill someone by accident, like a child.:(
 
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Tyler, that's a great point. Had there been occupants Jessop didn't know about, including a child in the back seat, things could have been very, very different. Same for a civilian situation. I hadn't even thought about that!
 
Finally, personal safety is a personal responsibility. It is the underlying reason the majority of civilians who carry do so, taking control of their own security and not relying on external factors to fall into place. However hard I try, I simply don't find value in comments such as "it's a small town, things like this don't happen there very often." Complacency is just that, it doesn't matter where you are. Things big and small go wrong in my life from time to time, as they likely do in most people's lives, and when they do I always think back asking myself, "what could I have done differently to effect a more favorable outcome?" To answer that question requires absolutely no ego to get in the way, no personal bias, no preconceived notions about the situation or people involved. In the end, I can only control my actions, not those of other people.

While I agree with the above quote IMO the things you listed wouldn't have changed the outcome for the better.

Can you shoot? Do you?

If for some crazy reason I find myself walking up to the window of a strange car and the driver does exactly as in the video, I would fire until I get to cover or the vehicle got far enough away to allow for a safe retreat. If you stand and deliver like the officer did you could be in trouble. If you fire while seeking cover you should be ok.

Frankly I'm shocked it took 5 hours of deliberation for the jury to clear the officer. I don't care who you are if someone does to you what this bad guy did to the officer I would clear you even if you reloaded and began again.
 
Thanks. There are just so many variables that go into a shooting situation it's hard to predict an outcome at all. In an adrenaline fueled charge of gunfire are you thinking about your background? Any of us could do the same I'm sure. Just goes to show how dangerous and crazy these situations are.:eek:
 
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