Monastery raided by ATF, firearms confiscation

johnbt said:
"Rev. John Henry takes leave from post at St. Herman's after 230 guns seized"
So spare me all of the rightous indignation and Nazi comments. Sheesh. JT
Click to expand...

I am certain that I do not know the fully story on this, and I would not rely on reporting of the Plain Dealer to be correct. However, I would also note that Cleveland's police and prosecutor's culture is not known for fastideous observance of the letter of the law.

I have little doubt that the city reported to the Plain Dealer that this all started as part of a fire safety inspection and that the monk consented to a search. That could even be what actually happened. Yet, I have had enough experience with the city to know that simply because they allege it doesn't mean it is so.

It is especially difficult to know what really happened here because the inforamtion all comes from a single source and none of it is the monk himself. I would guess that we will not see a more complete story until there is a formal announcement that he will not be charged.
 
"I have little doubt that the city reported to the Plain Dealer that this all started as part of a fire safety inspection "

You didn't read any of the articles, did you? You have it all backwards.

(My original response read "NO, NO, NO")

Okay, the first batch of guns was found in a car parked on the street last month.

The second batch of guns was found on a rural property on a different day.

The inspections by the fire department and health department were this month...AFTER the guns were found and the good Father agreed to turn them over and go for a psychiatric evaluation.
 
Well, let's take this quote from the article:
During an investigation prompted by a tip, Cleveland police also seized 80 guns and 874 boxes of ammunition Jan. 28 from a car parked near St. Herman’s after police saw weapons “in plain view” in the unlocked car. Pastor Henry gave consent for officers to search the car, the Plain Dealer reported.
Click to expand...
Unless there is some sort of ordinance or state law about leaving guns in an unlocked car, there is still no reason to seize the guns. A consent to search is not the same as a consent to seize. There still has to be probable cause to suspect a crime. Granted, some of this guy's behavior is downright bizarre but that's not enough to do anything but a short term stop/seizure while they conduct a quick investigation, maybe a few hours at the most.

Maybe this guy consented to police taking the guns as well. We may never get the full story on this.
 
What the heck kind of CAR was it? Something with good springs I hope!

I can' think of any kind of car in the last half century (not even my old DeSoto with a trunk more than 6' wide) that could hold 80 guns and 874 boxes of ammo (even if they were all .22LR) without some of them being in plain view!:eek::D:eek: A van, maybe, but a car?

There is tons of info here we are not getting. Maybe the good father was just doing his own version of a gun buy back program for a few decades? IN situations like this, I wouldn't automatically trust anything reported by the press as fully accurate, and statements from local bureaucrats are equally suspect as well. All too often some official shoots off their mouth when even they are not in posession of all the facts, and the press just runs with it as if it was gospel.

It is an interesting, and certainly unusual situation. I'd love to know the actual facts, and hope to hear them, eventually. Till then, all we can do is speculate without good basis.
 
This reminds me of the story of a local man who had a gun collection of several hundred built over his lifetime, 1 or 2 out of the roughly 200 did not have the proper paperwork and his wife knew it. Well low and behold, they get a divorce and the police storm his house and confiscate them ALL.

On the surface, I see no definitive laws broken and an overzealous police report. He was "religious" and had guns, thus he MUST be a danger to the public. Waco Texas all over! I am sure that is exactly what the police were thinking, if no laws were broken I hope in the end he gets them all back.
 
John, we need a new term for this. Godwin's Law doesn't quite get us there.

Hmmmm....

The Waco Corollary to Godwin?
 
The Waco Corollary? Works for me.

As much as I want to support the Rev John Henry, I have to say that this whole thing doesn't pass the smell test.
 
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/02/spiritual_leader_gives_up_post.html

"Also Tuesday, police for the first time disclosed why they began investigating Henry.

Several weeks ago, officials said, an anonymous informant told a narcotics detective that a man claiming to be a priest had purchased multiple guns. After police identified the man as Henry, the detective's surveillance uncovered "strange and erratic" behavior, Harper said."

I suppose trying to use the church's tax exemption to buy guns was a red flag of sorts. I haven't seen anything else about specific behaviors observed by the detective.


Another article said that the first 80 guns were found (a) at his apartment across the street from the shelter and (b) in plain view in a van on the property. The other 150 were found days later at a rural property the shelter owned. Father Henry agreed to all of the searches and the psychiatric evaluation.
 
The behavior part is interesting? What did the guy do I can't say but still owning a given number of weapons or ammo shouldn't by default mean you have some mental illness or subject you to police gathering your weapons.

Who decides what a reasonable number of weapons is? I collect guns, does that make me by default nuts?

Again I dont have all the facts here but Id love to know more... Whos got the tin foil? :D
 
I hope we get some follow-up to this. For once, I am actually withholding judgment, rather than simply withholding comment. I have no problem with a man of the cloth liking to shoot and even owning firearms, but 230 guns, with a bunch stored in plain sight in a van parked on a city street does seem to be a bit ... shall we say, "irregular."
 
After doing a bit of research, I've come to a conclusion. There is no need to invent a new corollary for Godwin's law. I found Issac's Corollary and have restated it, so that we have:

Godwin's Law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Godwin's Tradition: In many Internet discussion forums once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished.
Isaac's Corollary (restatement): "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving any Internet Meme approaches one."​
So let's all stay away from this, shall we?
 
Odd, irregular, poor judgement, none of these things is illegal, until they reach the point of being a danger to others. SO far, nothing we have heard indicates that...yet.

One thing that always bothers me about psyciatric evaluations is that short of clear cut violent behavior it relys entirely on the evaluator's opinions, and even the most unbiased of those relys on the subjects answers to questions, or "response to stimuli". And therefore it is not impossible for one to be "determined to be" what ever the evaluator(s) want them to be. A Rebuttal opinion can be offered, if there is a defense, but in the end, it comes down to a Judge's opinion of the opinions he is presented with. And in this case, there is no reported evidence of any violent crime, or intent to facilitate one.

Most of us would agree about it being really poor judgement having so many guns literally lying around in the open, but what actual crime is there here?

one wonders what further developments there will be, and if we will hear of them.....
 
44 AMP said:
Most of us would agree about it being really poor judgement having so many guns literally lying around in the open, but what actual crime is there here?
Click to expand...
One question, I suppose, is whether that "really poor judgement" rises to the level of "presenting a danger to self or others..." which I think would be the standard here for a legal ruling of mental illness. Do dozens of guns "lying around in the open" endanger people? I think one could make a case that they do, especially if they're accessible (visible in an unlocked van on church property) to a population that's likely to have a high proportion of people who are mentally ill, addicts, felons...

Not a crime, but possibly enough of a public safety concern to warrant involvement by law enforcement.

But there are a number of other things in the picture that might be criminal: It's not clear that Rev. Henry actually did use the church's tax exemption to purchase guns, but just trying to do so might, I suppose, amount to attempted fraud if the guns were for his personal use.

According to the St. Herman's website, all the funds that support the shelter, and presumably the order itself, come from private donations, and none of the shelter staff receive a salary; they live on the premises, and presumably have some communal, monastic arrangement to provide for their needs. So it's not clear whose money was used to buy the guns and ammunition. If Rev. Henry was using church funds to buy them for his personal use, this might amount to embezzlement, no? And if he wants to claim that they're somehow necessary to the mission of the Order... that might be a tough sell.

But I suppose that would be up to the board of directors -- which they must have, as they're incorporated as a non-profit.

All in all, it's a very strange situation...
 
"the standard here for a legal ruling of mental illness"

The ruling is not about mental illness. The ruling addresses behavior that is a danger to oneself or others. Mental illness is not against the law; posing a threat to oneself or others is.

Remember, the Abbott agreed to the police taking his guns and ammo. He and his lawyer even showed them where to look on the farm. The abbott agreed to go in for an evaluation. And was released.

One local report said he hoarded many different things, not just guns and ammo.

The good Father has yet to make a public statement.
 
There is more to this story. The article is very vague. That said, it does not surprise me. Remember Hurricane Katrina? Our National Guard was going door to door taking snub nosed revolvers away from 80 year old grandmothers.

I had a TSA officer rifle through my billfold last week in an airport. Bag Checks? All for it. Traveler screening? All for it. X-Rays? All for it. Going through my wallet pulling out my license, credit cards,etc after I had been through the X-Ray----over the top.

The line between safety and tyranny is very fine and demands our constant respect and vigilance.
 
johnbt said:
"the standard here for a legal ruling of mental illness"

The ruling is not about mental illness. The ruling addresses behavior that is a danger to oneself or others. Mental illness is not against the law; posing a threat to oneself or others is.
Click to expand...
You're right, of course. Careless of me...I get a little too "shorthand-y" sometimes. :o

But finding that a person is mentally ill is a primary legal requirement. According to the Ohio Legal Rights Service, civil commitment in Ohio requires that the court must find that the person "1) meet the legal definition of "mental illness," and 2) [is] an immediate danger to [him]self or others."

The abbott agreed to go in for an evaluation. And was released.

One local report said he hoarded many different things, not just guns and ammo.
Click to expand...
The general hoarding seemed likely, given that the initial reports said the fire and health departments weren't able to complete their inspections because of the amount of "clutter" on the premises. I hadn't heard anything about the outcome of the evaluation, though -- do you have a link to a more up-to-date story?
 
Nope, haven't seen anything else. Just a few mentions in passing that he was evaluated and released.

And he still hasn't made a statement. Maybe he's taken a vow of silence. :)
 
Zukiphile, thanks for posting the link to that very detailed story. Seven pianos... 60 cars... undeposited checks... yeah, I'd say Rev. Henry was a classic hoarder, on a pretty grand scale. It's disturbing stuff, and it's even more disturbing that the St. Herman's board of directors managed to ignore all this; not just the hoarding, but the financial situation, which they surely had a responsibility to oversee.

But for once, the system seems to have worked. A potentially dangerous situation involving a mentally ill person has been resolved before anything unfortunate happened, especially anything unfortunate involving firearms, and it sounds like Rev. Henry is getting whatever help he needs.

Maybe he'll even get his guns back, although I doubt it... :cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top