For what it's worth, the Governor and his son were both pilots, with his son having more experience. Son was definitely IFR qualified, Mel may have been, but only for a short time. Very nasty weather - fog, etc. I wouldn't have even considered flying. I guess the promise of power (they were going to another fundraiser, after doing on in STL) tends to corrupt. The third passenger was a spin advisor/campaign person.
MO Anti-gun Governor Dies in Plane Crash!
- Thread starter Blackrifle
- Start date
- Status
This man was an American citizen just like you, fighting for things that he believed would make your country a better place to live in, quite how that makes him a low life scum I don't understand. Whatever happened to all that "I may not agree with what you say but I'll die to defend your right to say it" rhetoric that I hear bandied around in here so often. The only part of the constitution some of you seem interested in is the part that lets you have a gun.
To think it justifiable to gloat over someone's death because they disagree with your viewpoint harks of a kind of savagery that our knuckle dragging ancestors found so comforting. TFL needs to stamp this out before it gains the kind of reputation AR15.com has earned itself. It's a good job I'm not a moderator because a few e-mails would be in the pipe.
You should hang your heads in shame, but I suspect that you'll just hang your heads.
Mike H
To think it justifiable to gloat over someone's death because they disagree with your viewpoint harks of a kind of savagery that our knuckle dragging ancestors found so comforting. TFL needs to stamp this out before it gains the kind of reputation AR15.com has earned itself. It's a good job I'm not a moderator because a few e-mails would be in the pipe.
You should hang your heads in shame, but I suspect that you'll just hang your heads.
Mike H
BadDriver & Crash & MikeH: Well said gentlemen, It really amazes me as to the stupidity of some of the statements posted to this forum, and then left to stand by its moderators.
Where does this post fit into TFL'S mission statement?
Think about it folks.. How bout locking this tread down???
[This message has been edited by 12-34hom (edited October 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 12-34hom (edited October 17, 2000).]
Where does this post fit into TFL'S mission statement?
Think about it folks.. How bout locking this tread down???
[This message has been edited by 12-34hom (edited October 17, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 12-34hom (edited October 17, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike H:
...Whatever happened to all that "I may not agree with what you say but I'll die to defend your right to say it" rhetoric that I hear bandied around in here so often...
TFL needs to stamp this out before it gains the kind of reputation AR15.com has earned itself....
Mike H[/quote]
Mike, I admire your eloquence, if not your reasoning. Do you not see those two statements above as contradictory?
...Whatever happened to all that "I may not agree with what you say but I'll die to defend your right to say it" rhetoric that I hear bandied around in here so often...
TFL needs to stamp this out before it gains the kind of reputation AR15.com has earned itself....
Mike H[/quote]
Mike, I admire your eloquence, if not your reasoning. Do you not see those two statements above as contradictory?
Mike in VA
New member
Kharma.
M2
M2
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike H:
Whatever happened to all that "I may not agree with what you say but I'll die to defend your right to say it" rhetoric that I hear bandied around in here so often. The only part of the constitution some of you seem interested in is the part that lets you have a gun...
To think it justifiable to gloat over someone's death because they disagree with your viewpoint harks of a kind of savagery that our knuckle dragging ancestors found so comforting.
Mike H[/quote]
Mike there is a difference in expression and implementation. When one moves to limit the freedoms of others before the commission of the invasive/infringing act they become the enemy of freedom loving individuals. These pre-emptive laws presuppose guilt.
Gun owners are automatically guilty of committing heinous crimes by mere possession of banned items based primarily upon their appearance. We are automatically guilty until we, at great expense, prove our innocence, if we can. And even if we do there is no reimbursement for our expenses from the accusing party (govenment) because <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>1.we have to file suite for that, and
<LI>2. even if we won that case, as well, we would be recieving money that was taken from us at the threat of force, anyway.
</UL>
This doesn't happen only against our 2nd Amendment rights, but against our, 1st, 5th, taxes, property rights, etc. Need I go on?
No. The expression of an idea is one thing. It's implementation against the enumerated freedoms we each are in possession of is another animal entirely.
And anyone who moves against me without just cause is my enemy.
I'll waste no time shedding tears for this man or any other like him.
------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com
Do it for the children...
[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 17, 2000).]
Whatever happened to all that "I may not agree with what you say but I'll die to defend your right to say it" rhetoric that I hear bandied around in here so often. The only part of the constitution some of you seem interested in is the part that lets you have a gun...
To think it justifiable to gloat over someone's death because they disagree with your viewpoint harks of a kind of savagery that our knuckle dragging ancestors found so comforting.
Mike H[/quote]
Mike there is a difference in expression and implementation. When one moves to limit the freedoms of others before the commission of the invasive/infringing act they become the enemy of freedom loving individuals. These pre-emptive laws presuppose guilt.
Gun owners are automatically guilty of committing heinous crimes by mere possession of banned items based primarily upon their appearance. We are automatically guilty until we, at great expense, prove our innocence, if we can. And even if we do there is no reimbursement for our expenses from the accusing party (govenment) because <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>1.we have to file suite for that, and
<LI>2. even if we won that case, as well, we would be recieving money that was taken from us at the threat of force, anyway.
</UL>
This doesn't happen only against our 2nd Amendment rights, but against our, 1st, 5th, taxes, property rights, etc. Need I go on?
No. The expression of an idea is one thing. It's implementation against the enumerated freedoms we each are in possession of is another animal entirely.
And anyone who moves against me without just cause is my enemy.
I'll waste no time shedding tears for this man or any other like him.
------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com
Do it for the children...
[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 17, 2000).]
oberkommando
New member
Perhaps this post fits in to this forum because this was one of our leaders who was trying his hardest to violate the constitutional protections guranteed by the founders. As to the "he can have his view point" and such, that is fine as long as he is not trying to take away ones right to life by victim disarmament, that is outta line and treasonous in my opinion and we already know the punishment for teason.
I agree that it is a pretty bad sign of the times when the first thought I had when I heard the news was,
"Was he anti or pro?"
The politicians have done it to themselves. I'm sure more would "celebrate" his death but some were murdered because they couldnt carry concealed in his state thanks to him.
I also wish he changed his ways before, but I will take freedom in any way it comes.
"For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,
and the complacency of fools will destroy them;"
As to locking up this one I think its good odds dennis will, but he can't monitor this forum 24/7 so give the moderators a break!
[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited October 17, 2000).]
I agree that it is a pretty bad sign of the times when the first thought I had when I heard the news was,
"Was he anti or pro?"
The politicians have done it to themselves. I'm sure more would "celebrate" his death but some were murdered because they couldnt carry concealed in his state thanks to him.
I also wish he changed his ways before, but I will take freedom in any way it comes.
"For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,
and the complacency of fools will destroy them;"
As to locking up this one I think its good odds dennis will, but he can't monitor this forum 24/7 so give the moderators a break!
[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited October 17, 2000).]
Mike, you might notice that I haven't posted to this thread yet, so what I'm about to say is not a case of one of the celebrators getting defensive.
Mel Carnahan was NOT just another citizen trying to do what he could to make our country a better place. Reread Gunslinger's first post. Carnahan was instrumental in carrying out election fraud. He went out of his way, with malice, to make sure that the real results of that election never saw the light of day. When Milosevic did the same thing, it was considered proper for mobs to threaten to stone him to death until he stepped down. THAT is Mel Carnahan. He was a criminal, an enemy of democracy, and though neither I nor anyone else here would have killed him, it would be dishonest to say we mourn him. "How we look" be damned. I hated the man and dying did not improve his twisted morality. If people can't see that about him, they're the problem.
I would NOT talk this way about a local MMM organizer who is just trying to "do something" without understanding the harm she's doing. Nor would it apply to some college professor who teaches a different point of view. But Carnahan is neither. He didn't just do what he was right and make an honest mistake. He couldn't possibly have thought it was proper not to certify OR decertify the election. He did it consciously for his own reasons. I hope that helps.
Mel Carnahan was NOT just another citizen trying to do what he could to make our country a better place. Reread Gunslinger's first post. Carnahan was instrumental in carrying out election fraud. He went out of his way, with malice, to make sure that the real results of that election never saw the light of day. When Milosevic did the same thing, it was considered proper for mobs to threaten to stone him to death until he stepped down. THAT is Mel Carnahan. He was a criminal, an enemy of democracy, and though neither I nor anyone else here would have killed him, it would be dishonest to say we mourn him. "How we look" be damned. I hated the man and dying did not improve his twisted morality. If people can't see that about him, they're the problem.
I would NOT talk this way about a local MMM organizer who is just trying to "do something" without understanding the harm she's doing. Nor would it apply to some college professor who teaches a different point of view. But Carnahan is neither. He didn't just do what he was right and make an honest mistake. He couldn't possibly have thought it was proper not to certify OR decertify the election. He did it consciously for his own reasons. I hope that helps.
Mike Irwin
Staff
In order for me to have respect for someone in death, they have to have earned my respect in life.
Carnahan failed miserably.
I don't hold the view that someone should automatically engender respect due to their death.
Am I happy this guy is dead? Nope, I'm certain that it leaves a gaping hole in the lives of his family and friends.
Am I happy that he won't have the opportunity to bring his own twisted perspective of Constitutional "freedoms" to Washington, and do to the entire country what he did to his state? Oh yeah.
------------------
Smith & Wesson is dead to me.
If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
Carnahan failed miserably.
I don't hold the view that someone should automatically engender respect due to their death.
Am I happy this guy is dead? Nope, I'm certain that it leaves a gaping hole in the lives of his family and friends.
Am I happy that he won't have the opportunity to bring his own twisted perspective of Constitutional "freedoms" to Washington, and do to the entire country what he did to his state? Oh yeah.
------------------
Smith & Wesson is dead to me.
If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
walangkatapat
New member
How about Plane Control Incorporated(PCI)?
------------------
"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
------------------
"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power"
Hard Cast 44
Inactive
The way I look at it. It comes down to politicians like him now or law abiding Constitutionalists later, I'm not sorry he took a dump. TED
Jeff Thomas
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This man was an American citizen just like you, fighting for things that he believed would make your country a better place to live in, quite how that makes him a low life scum I don't understand. Whatever happened to all that "I may not agree with what you say but I'll die to defend your right to say it" rhetoric that I hear bandied around in here so often. The only part of the constitution some of you seem interested in is the part that lets you have a gun.[/quote] Mike H
Mike, I used to share your view. No longer.
I do indeed support someone's right to free speech - no rhetoric there. And, I believe most TFL members feel the same. However, if someone actively works to subvert the Constitution, if they actively work to deny the fundamental right of self defense to innocent people, and if they actively work to destroy the RKBA, then they are my enemy. Period. And, I don't feel any better about it if they have managed to distort the judicial system in order to support their actions ... we've seen too many examples of the judicial equivalent of arguing about what 'is' is.
You apparently see such a person as simply a worthy, American adversary. I do not. While I will not and do not advocate violence, I will also not be a hypocrite, and pretend sorrow for such a person.
Some of us strongly believe we are in a fight for freedom, because the RKBA is being steadily destroyed in many ways, by both the powerful and the naive. We see attacks on the free transfer of private property (gun shows); calls for registration and licensing (which can be easily demonstrated to historically precede confiscation); limitations on gun and ammunition purchases; prohibititions against self defense in certain venues; limitations on the amount of ammunition one can buy, own or carry in their firearm; attacks on specific kinds of ammunition; junk science and bald-faced lies; ad nauseum. Do a search on TFL, and you can find probably a dozen more 'fronts' in this war.
And, when the RKBA is reduced to 'allowing' us to possess a bolt-action, single-shot .22 rifle, will the country be as free? Will the rest of the Bill of Rights be so secure? If one answers yes, then such an answer repudiates the principles behind the RKBA.
Sir, when shall we become concerned enough that it is acceptable to be glad to receive news that one of our enemies is dead? If we had now reached the status of Great Britain, would you still require that we cry crocodile tears for this enemy of freedom and innocent human life? Should we cut him slack because he was ignorant of studies by Lott, Kleck and others? Or, should we feel pain for the man because he lacked the intellectual horsepower to understand history, and the logic of the RKBA?
I'm sorry, but I'm simply out of empathy for such men. Some of the anti-self defense gun bigots I meet are truly naive, and simply incapable of logical thought. Others simply cannot escape their emotions long enough to consider reality. But, the Governor of MO? Should I have thought him a fool, or a tyrant?
No, I really don't care what others think of my words ... they will crucify us no matter what we say on this board. Such people have chosen their side, and I have chosen mine. They won't mourn the passing of any lover of freedom and personal responsibility, and I damn well won't pretend to mourn them.
Regards from AZ
Mike, I used to share your view. No longer.
I do indeed support someone's right to free speech - no rhetoric there. And, I believe most TFL members feel the same. However, if someone actively works to subvert the Constitution, if they actively work to deny the fundamental right of self defense to innocent people, and if they actively work to destroy the RKBA, then they are my enemy. Period. And, I don't feel any better about it if they have managed to distort the judicial system in order to support their actions ... we've seen too many examples of the judicial equivalent of arguing about what 'is' is.
You apparently see such a person as simply a worthy, American adversary. I do not. While I will not and do not advocate violence, I will also not be a hypocrite, and pretend sorrow for such a person.
Some of us strongly believe we are in a fight for freedom, because the RKBA is being steadily destroyed in many ways, by both the powerful and the naive. We see attacks on the free transfer of private property (gun shows); calls for registration and licensing (which can be easily demonstrated to historically precede confiscation); limitations on gun and ammunition purchases; prohibititions against self defense in certain venues; limitations on the amount of ammunition one can buy, own or carry in their firearm; attacks on specific kinds of ammunition; junk science and bald-faced lies; ad nauseum. Do a search on TFL, and you can find probably a dozen more 'fronts' in this war.
And, when the RKBA is reduced to 'allowing' us to possess a bolt-action, single-shot .22 rifle, will the country be as free? Will the rest of the Bill of Rights be so secure? If one answers yes, then such an answer repudiates the principles behind the RKBA.
Sir, when shall we become concerned enough that it is acceptable to be glad to receive news that one of our enemies is dead? If we had now reached the status of Great Britain, would you still require that we cry crocodile tears for this enemy of freedom and innocent human life? Should we cut him slack because he was ignorant of studies by Lott, Kleck and others? Or, should we feel pain for the man because he lacked the intellectual horsepower to understand history, and the logic of the RKBA?
I'm sorry, but I'm simply out of empathy for such men. Some of the anti-self defense gun bigots I meet are truly naive, and simply incapable of logical thought. Others simply cannot escape their emotions long enough to consider reality. But, the Governor of MO? Should I have thought him a fool, or a tyrant?
No, I really don't care what others think of my words ... they will crucify us no matter what we say on this board. Such people have chosen their side, and I have chosen mine. They won't mourn the passing of any lover of freedom and personal responsibility, and I damn well won't pretend to mourn them.
Regards from AZ
Blackrifle
Inactive
12-34hom
Senior Member stated:
"Blackrifle: Your post is in very poor taste.
Regardless of his views, have some compassion for his death and his realatives.
Yes, I have some compassion for his relatives,but NONE for the man himself.
How many lives were lost by his direct legislative actions on gun control, abortion, and that most hideous of crimes; partial-birth abortion?
I believe my post was in excellent taste. Now with this man's death he will kill no more.
Senior Member stated:
"Blackrifle: Your post is in very poor taste.
Regardless of his views, have some compassion for his death and his realatives.
Yes, I have some compassion for his relatives,but NONE for the man himself.
How many lives were lost by his direct legislative actions on gun control, abortion, and that most hideous of crimes; partial-birth abortion?
I believe my post was in excellent taste. Now with this man's death he will kill no more.
Blackrifle
Inactive
Also:
It really pisses me off to see what has been written in reply to my initial post. Here is a man that through his power as Governor has denied the right of Missouri citizens to protect themselves from criminals by vetoeing all right to carry bills presented to him that were PASSED in the legislature.
Here is a man that is pro-abortion, and vetoed a bill passed by the legislature to outlaw partial-birth abortions.
HOW MANY HAVE DIED AT HIS HAND??
And here you go critisizing me when I say good riddance to this evil? How dare you.
What if it were your wife that was raped or murdered without being legally able to carry a weapon to protect herself?
Did you wimps cry when Hitler died?
Did you cry when Stalin, Mao, or any other butcher died?
Excuse me while I spit in disgust.
It really pisses me off to see what has been written in reply to my initial post. Here is a man that through his power as Governor has denied the right of Missouri citizens to protect themselves from criminals by vetoeing all right to carry bills presented to him that were PASSED in the legislature.
Here is a man that is pro-abortion, and vetoed a bill passed by the legislature to outlaw partial-birth abortions.
HOW MANY HAVE DIED AT HIS HAND??
And here you go critisizing me when I say good riddance to this evil? How dare you.
What if it were your wife that was raped or murdered without being legally able to carry a weapon to protect herself?
Did you wimps cry when Hitler died?
Did you cry when Stalin, Mao, or any other butcher died?
Excuse me while I spit in disgust.
- Status