Misnomer's........Sniper Rifle

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Ah....um.....

When all is said and done...

Todays "scope" shooter is tomorrows "sniper".

That's the way it's gonna be. Believe it or not.

Fight or Die.

Fight, first, in the political arena. If that fails,
Fight, next, in the legal arena. If that fails,
Reload more than your "Recommended Daily Allowance"...for you're for sure gonna need it.
 
Mixed feelings on this one...

Tshoes, while I sure as hell wouldn't want to give the anti-gunners any decided advantage against us, I don't feel like caving in to the PC mindset, especially after I left California with my AK, AR-15, M14NM, and BM-59 just before SB-23 went into effect out there. I felt like I was violated, even though I managed to get things out of there before having to register them, I felt as if I had wussed-out, and not done anything useful to stop such silliness from spreading. Maybe I'm being shallow, but to me, an "Assault Weapon" is any weapon used in the commission of an assault, period.

So I have no problem calling a sniper rifle a sniper rifle. You will have a hard time convincing me that this 1903A4 Springfield was fielded for any other purpose than sniping. No National Match target punching, or service rifle matches, Uncle Sam had a specific purpose in mind when the 1903A3 was modified to 1903A4 standard. And it's mine, I restored it from a derelict receiver, it's my SNIPER RIFLE, circa WWII. While I don't own it or shoot it for it's original purpose, I do keep it as a collectible part of American military history.


Now, I have one of these, a Remington 700PSS. It's set up for long-range shooting, and although my branch of service and occupation don't qualify me as a Marine or Army sniper, I do enjoy the right to own and collect such things, at least, until the PC gun-grabbers say otherwise. I've won several tactical matches with it as well as put venison in my freezer. My not-so-virgin ears have indeed heard the 700PSS referred to as a sniper rifle, and in the hands of a qualified sniper, he would not be at a disadvantage with this particular gun.



Then again, I wanted something that had even more range and better accuracy at 1000 yards than the .308 700PSS, hence my homebuilt 6.5-06 Interdiction Rifle , which was mentioned in the November 1999 Tactical Shooter magazine. To date, it's been used on paper targets out to 1000 yards, a 500-meter golf-ball, an armadillo, and a whitetail deer, all with excellent effect. Again, I'm not a sanctioned, endorsed, commissioned, licensed police or military sniper, but that doesn't mean one cannot collect, build, read, write, or otherwise take advantage of our 2nd Amendment rights to have such things, or describe them with some accuracy under our 1st Amendment rights. Unless you're Dianne Feinstein or Barbara Boxer...



Inserted Images changed to Link due to load time/bandwidth. Nice 1903 Springfield BTW!



[Edited by Schmit on 05-10-2001 at 12:02 PM]
 
. Now I own a precision lead projection device in natural colors.
Click to expand...

ROTFLMAO! Guess that would make my AWP a "Toned* Lead Projection Device"

* IIRC from my Art Classes you have your primary colors (Red Yellow, Blue), tint (white) & tone (black)
 
Leaving dictionary definitions aside, the term sniper evolved from a group of IIRC Scottish gamekeepers who used ghillie suits and were used by the Brits as markmen. The sniper term came from the Snipe, a game bird that these guys hunted; to snipe, was to hunt Snipe. A Sniper was a guy who hunted Snipe. But in WWI, these guys started hunting people and the term sniper gained its military usage.

IMO, all sniper rifles are in military or police inventory. Many LE orgs don't even use the sniper terminology. Anyone who thinks they own a sniper rifle is misinformed. If they insist on their precision rifle being referred to as a sniper rifle, they're a wannabe.

I have both a Rem 700 VS and an LTR; neither are sniper rifles. A military sniper's personal Rem 700 PSS set-up just like the one's at work, is still only a precision rifle. Regardless of it's capability, it is only used for shooting paper or hunting. I recently met a SEAL here in SOCAL who used his Rem 700 LTR (.308, Leupold 10X scope, etc) on a hunting trip. He got his deer so that makes it a hunting rifle.

As far as use of incorrect terminology making a difference: HCI would like anything with a scope to be a sniper rifle. There's nothing to be gained in helping their cause.
 
A "sniper" as defined by U.S.M.C. IN FMFM1-3b = is a marine highly trained in field craft and markmanship who delivers long range, precision fire at selected targets from concealed positions in support of COMBAT operations.

The difference between a target rifle and a sniper rifle?

A "target rifle" is expected to put all its shots into a very small group after some adjustments to the sights

A "sniper rifle" must put the first shot of any day into the same spot as the last shot of any other day, a sniper does not get "sighter" shots nor does he intend to put ten shots into the same target.

Moreover, no target rifle could take the abuse on a daily basis and hold its zero, as a rifle specifically built for use in the field under combat conditions as used by a marine in combat. The main goal of any sniper team is to observation and gather intell on enemy movements.

I have a highly tuned varmint rifle, but by no means is it a "sniper grade weapon". The word "sniper" conjures up many differing meanings and things in the imagination of peoples minds.
 
Dos Sopatos,

Mi Amigo, est su mui grande loco? LOL!

You didn't really thing you were gonna have this discussion HERE did ya?

Best,

Mike
 
12-34hom

Moreover, no target rifle could take the abuse on a daily basis and hold its zero, as a rifle specifically built for use in the field under combat conditions as used by a marine in combat.
Click to expand...


I beg to differ. Here is a photo of my Precision Rifle. I currently use it as a target rifle, others use it for another, specific purpose (notice I didn't say the "S" word? :D ).

I don't think this topic is so much a discussion on what makes/classifies as a precision/target/sniper weapon, nor if who using it/or how it is used causes the above distinction but whether, we as Firearms Enthusiasts, should use terms that are detrimental to our cause of converting antis/fence sitters.

I'm with Art on this (great minds think alike). When teaching/talking I avoid certain words.
 
Art Eatman:

I was trying to be practical too. Without a principled defense of an individual right to own hardware that can be used to splat people (and is very good for that purpose) I believe it's lost.

It's like the Assault Weapon ban thing. That really came from the machineguns are evil thing. Then came "assault weapons": The arguments from VPC etc. include: It's hard to believe that removing a little piece of metal (autosear) makes an assault weapon any less deadly, etc. Now, after "Assault weapons" I'm hearing (esp. on import ban side from the ATF - don't know if you were following the import ban on rifle parts) - about these "modified assault weapons", which are now described as "Assault Weapons" with minor cosmetic changes that don't change their fundamental capabilities.

"Let me keep my <whatever> because it's ineffective - honest" will ultimately fail.


Battler.
 
Schimdt, AWS system is designed and built for sniper type applications.

Your use of this weapon system as a "target grade" rifle is not the primary application for its intended use, although it fills that bill.
 
Sir Michael................put it off to ............

TEMPORARY insanity..............
But, you gotta admit, I did STIR the pot......hehehehe:D
Some see, some do not......
As El Rushbo used to say, "Words mean things".
Too bad some of us can't see the forest for the trees.....:rolleyes:

Dos Sopatos
 
shoes = zapatas. :)

Battler, part of my overall point is that we lost the fights over "Brady" and "assault rifles" because we tried to use facts, and deal with real-world aspects of guns. Didn't work. Big time, didn't work.

Maybe I'm sadistic, but I've always enjoyed working on folks' minds in order to persuade them that my way is righteous. So, back in the Old Daze, I bragged on the gas mileage I got with my Camaro--I never called it a hotrod. Just because it had a 385-horse 427 in it didn't make it a hotrod, right?

I never called my Austin Healey a racer; it was my commuter car. Just because it had a 350-horse 327 in it didn't make it a racer, right?

Back in the '70s, my Hippie friends had their long hair and beads and got hassled by the cops. I had my flat-top (less grease when working on race cars) and dressed straight, and got agreement from straights when I'd point out that we might as well legalize Mary Jane because the War on Drugs had been lost; we were wasting THEIR tax-dollar money.

I try to get folks to see things my way from working within THEIR framework of reality, their perceptions of "what oughta be".

The hidden cruelty of my style is that it forces people to think--most folks just really hate to do that.

:D, Art
 
Tshoes & El Rushbo are wright!

"Words mean things"

My Brother-Inlaw came for a visit from Mo, he owns guns shot at some Turkey shoots and some skeet. Since he was a shooter I thought he would like to see my M14, so I got it out,he looked for a min and said isn`t that gun Illegal?
Don`t know wheather it was the name M14 or the 20 round clip, so I said No! put the gun back, maybe I should offered to let him shoot it but I was ticked that he was so dumb. So Words do mean things as well as looks.
 
TShoes & Art,

I hate to nit-pick, but I can't resist :). I believe shoes are zapatos. Zapata is a Spanish sir-name, as in general Zapata from the Mexican Revolution (if memory serves).

Regarding the actual subject being discussed, I must admit that the arguments are fairly good on both sides. I guess I come down on the side of trying to win converts to our side by not using terminology that is almost certain to put them off. I had a guy I work with, who is moderately anti-gun (doesn't think banning would work, but wishes they would just all disappear), ask me about the 50 caliber rifles discussed in a newspaper article last year. He was concerned that they were just for would-be sniper/assassins. When I told him that I think a lot of people just enjoy really long-distance target shooting with them, and pointed out that almost ANY normal "hunting rifle" could easily penetrate a car - that these 50's are very large, heavy, expensive, and unlikely to be the gun of choice for any type of criminal, he seemed okay with the idea. I'm sure that calling these (or any gun) a "sniper rifle" would put up a HUGE barrier in his mind - and make him support banning them.

We can talk to ourselves all day about how we shouldn't water down our terminology, but it's not the people on this board we need to win over, it's the people who don't know a lot about guns and don't much care. They may not have strong feeling about target shooting, but you can be sure they don't want any civilian "snipers" around. I don't see using less inflammatory terminology as appeasement, only good sense if we really want to win this battle.

Doug
 
Aristo's Snapper Rifffle

A,
Mi Amigo, IF you insist on calling a STANDARD Varmint barrelled, Standard Rem 700 action, Black in color, with a Black stock, a Sniper rifle....then be my guest.

The stock is a PSS stock, used by Remington exclusively on their "So Called", Police rifle......(selling tool).
Does simply "Changing", a stock design MAKE a Sniper rifle?.........
If so, I am headed to Wally World, and buying a dozen ADL 700's, and ordering some Police style stocks from Midway, for $236.00 each, and go in the SNAPPER RIFFFLE BIDNESS.

The man that had 2 of them, and was a for REAL Sniper, when he uses them they ARE Snipers rifles, JUST the fact HE owns them, makes them a Sniper's rifle.

I think we are into semantics here..........

Go to a forum were most of the folks that run there ARE Snipers, or have been post, tell them YOU have a PSS Rem SNIPER rifle...........( in .223 no less)

NO, better yet....DECLARE it's a sniper rifle,(like you have here, now 2 times) and then ARGUE with them on the finer points.....

Then duck..........and be prepared to be invited not to come back:D
 
I just built a new sniper rifle.

I just built a brand new sniper rifle. I bought a brand new gun from Ruger. I scraped the barrel, stock, and trigger group for all custom parts. I put on a 16.5" bull barrel, a hogue overmold stock, and a trigger guard 2000. Slap on a Harris bipod that I already had and I have the most deadly 10/22 that a ground squirrel has ever seen. What? You say that is not a sniper rifle? I have seen the Israelies using a suppressed version to snipe dangerous protesters for crowd control in urban areas. I'll be damned if you guys start telling me I don't have a sniper rifle!
 
El Rojo...

Danest thing I ever her't of...

"I just built a brand new sniper rifle.

I bought a brand new gun from Ruger. I scraped the barrel, stock, and trigger group for all custom parts..."

Why in the he!! did you buy the da$@ed thing in the first place, if'n you were gonna throw everything away?

THAT's why I don't want you around my daughter! You are plumb stupid!

Yea, it's the Junglerat...incognito here. ;)
 
Sorry, Rojo. You have just created a Precision Food Harvester. With .22 CB Caps, you would then have a Precision Food Harvester, Unobtrusive, Mk 1A.

Sheesh! (Grumble, groumble...Slow learners, around here...Grumble, grumble...)

:D

Art
 
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