Minuteman Project does not allow rifles
- Thread starter JimDiver
- Start date
No I didn't miss it. I understand where your coming from. But the minutemen don't have volunteers operating without at least a patrol buddy, not any that i've heard of anyway. But even police often find themselves in bad situations without the "guarantee" of backup. There's a response time to every unplanned situation. Backup isn't a guarantee in a lot of professions, civilian or otherwise, yet people still do them because they need to be done. It's what makes modern day heroes.
So back to my question, where are the modern day hero equivalents to the those looking for a border shootout in our own cities?
I don't think the MM have anything to do with armed combat, like some of you seem to believe. It isn't the point. But people irked about not having a rifle in hand seem to be itching for danger - so I'm wondering why they don't go looking for it elsewhere if risking your life for a principle is important.
I don't think the MM have anything to do with armed combat, like some of you seem to believe. It isn't the point. But people irked about not having a rifle in hand seem to be itching for danger - so I'm wondering why they don't go looking for it elsewhere if risking your life for a principle is important.
I'm not sure I understand what your getting at.
The MM don't have anything to do with inner city crime. That's what the cops are for. The MM are where they are because noone except the border patrol was doing anything about a situation that was getting out of control.
Your right in that the MM are not about armed combat, they are about observing and reporting as I stated earlier. If they stick to that, they shouldn't need rifles. As for people complaining that they don't have them, either they are afraid for the safety of the MM and want them to have every means of defense, or offense apparently, or they just like the idea of heavily armed men watching the border. Which really doesn't sound like a bad idea to me in any case.
The MM don't have anything to do with inner city crime. That's what the cops are for. The MM are where they are because noone except the border patrol was doing anything about a situation that was getting out of control.
Your right in that the MM are not about armed combat, they are about observing and reporting as I stated earlier. If they stick to that, they shouldn't need rifles. As for people complaining that they don't have them, either they are afraid for the safety of the MM and want them to have every means of defense, or offense apparently, or they just like the idea of heavily armed men watching the border. Which really doesn't sound like a bad idea to me in any case.
BerettaCougar
New member
I find it funny that some people are actually against the MM having the means to repel an attack.
According to the gunshop owner near me (which was a MM for a week)..
The MM are sometimes several thousand yards away from one another, and possibly several miles away from LEO's, or BP.
He told me that when the guy who was closest to him left, it left a gap between him and the next person so large that he could barely make out the persons truck, it was only a red spot, off in the distance... Would you like to be that far away from help with only a handgun? Thought so!
The MM are not there at war, nor are they there to snipe the would be bordr crossers....all they are doing is observing...reporting crossers to the BP....then it's the BP's job to detain the crossers (if they get there in time)..
I think the role of the MM should be changed, making them line holders...
Holding down our national line with force if need be. The problem those border states have with the Mexicans is insane, and you average joe in the north will never understand just how bad it is.
According to the gunshop owner near me (which was a MM for a week)..
The MM are sometimes several thousand yards away from one another, and possibly several miles away from LEO's, or BP.
He told me that when the guy who was closest to him left, it left a gap between him and the next person so large that he could barely make out the persons truck, it was only a red spot, off in the distance... Would you like to be that far away from help with only a handgun? Thought so!
The MM are not there at war, nor are they there to snipe the would be bordr crossers....all they are doing is observing...reporting crossers to the BP....then it's the BP's job to detain the crossers (if they get there in time)..
I think the role of the MM should be changed, making them line holders...
Holding down our national line with force if need be. The problem those border states have with the Mexicans is insane, and you average joe in the north will never understand just how bad it is.
Of course i'm not against them repelling an attack. But if the attack is from so far off they need a rifle to fight it, then they have just as good a chance to get out of danger and call the BP. They shouldn't put themselves in harm's way unnecessarily to the point where they get into an open firefight. They're handguns are for defense and defense only.
What kind of danger are you talking about. If your being sniped at, then get the heck out of there and call for help, assuming you don't get killed on the first shot. And unless danger sneaks up on you, you should be able to see the threat coming and make necessary preparations to fight or flee. They can't just shoot at someone at a distance unless their lives are in danger, same as any self defense requirement. And if it does sneak up on you, your probably going to be too close to it for a rifle to do you any good. Then your talking close quarters combat which is what handguns are suited for.
And i'm not an average joe in the north. I live in New Mexico, I know how bad the situation is. Again, your right. They are there to observe and report. But they can use binoculars to do that just as well as a rifle scope. If they have people shooting at them from great distances, they need to get out of there and call BP. They can defend themselves with handguns just as well as rifles. Because there should be no instance when they allow danger to get that close. The government is never going to let them be line holders, if it came down to entrenched fighting then the national guard would be called. Which I believe they have been, in some places at least. Personally, I like the idea of us being able to snipe border runners at our leisure. Where else are you going to get good practice at moving targets. But from a realistic, and currently lawfull, viewpoint, you have to realize that the MM are limited in what they can do. Sure rifles enhance their range of fire, but the smart thing to do would be just to get out of harm's way and continue to report. Remember, there are a lot more border runners than there are MM.
If the BP doesn't get there in time to arrest the border runners, I don't think the MM are supposed to just stand in the way. It's a pretty big border, unless your talking bottle neck situations, the best thing would be to just move and continue to observe.
What kind of danger are you talking about. If your being sniped at, then get the heck out of there and call for help, assuming you don't get killed on the first shot. And unless danger sneaks up on you, you should be able to see the threat coming and make necessary preparations to fight or flee. They can't just shoot at someone at a distance unless their lives are in danger, same as any self defense requirement. And if it does sneak up on you, your probably going to be too close to it for a rifle to do you any good. Then your talking close quarters combat which is what handguns are suited for.
And i'm not an average joe in the north. I live in New Mexico, I know how bad the situation is. Again, your right. They are there to observe and report. But they can use binoculars to do that just as well as a rifle scope. If they have people shooting at them from great distances, they need to get out of there and call BP. They can defend themselves with handguns just as well as rifles. Because there should be no instance when they allow danger to get that close. The government is never going to let them be line holders, if it came down to entrenched fighting then the national guard would be called. Which I believe they have been, in some places at least. Personally, I like the idea of us being able to snipe border runners at our leisure. Where else are you going to get good practice at moving targets. But from a realistic, and currently lawfull, viewpoint, you have to realize that the MM are limited in what they can do. Sure rifles enhance their range of fire, but the smart thing to do would be just to get out of harm's way and continue to report. Remember, there are a lot more border runners than there are MM.
If the BP doesn't get there in time to arrest the border runners, I don't think the MM are supposed to just stand in the way. It's a pretty big border, unless your talking bottle neck situations, the best thing would be to just move and continue to observe.
31, my point was that anyone looking for vigilante combat has plenty of other types of crime they can choose to take on if they don't like the lack of confrontation on the part of the MM.
Fighting crime is the point of MM, right? Stopping border incursions for the good of the country in general? I'm just saying that if you're looking to shoot and get shot at, you could choose some other activity that will allow you to be more of a vigilante.
Do I think that's a good idea? No. I think anyone who puts themselves in harms way without more of a parachute is a fool. I'm just offering something else for them to occupy themselves since it doesn't sound like the MM want their long range gunplay fantasies.
Fighting crime is the point of MM, right? Stopping border incursions for the good of the country in general? I'm just saying that if you're looking to shoot and get shot at, you could choose some other activity that will allow you to be more of a vigilante.
Do I think that's a good idea? No. I think anyone who puts themselves in harms way without more of a parachute is a fool. I'm just offering something else for them to occupy themselves since it doesn't sound like the MM want their long range gunplay fantasies.
newworldCurmudgeon
New member
A picture to put things in perspective
Wow many good posts,
Handy, I lived in the area, until I pcsed last May, Most of the minutemen are not looking for a gunfight. I place the minutemen along the lines of a neighbrhood watch program, only in some cases your neighbors fenceline is several miles away. Last year they posted some people along Highway 92.
Let me orient y'all to photo, Highway 92 runs east/west, and at this location is about 5.1 Km from the border. If you use your cell phone to call the police, well, lets just say it could be the sherriff, state police, or maybe one of the local municipalities, but response time may be slow. The smart person carries "backup" with them regardless of their profession.
Also to put things in perspective here is a bit from Ray Borane, mayor of Douglas, Ariz., from a letter to the Aspen Daily News, dated July 8, 1999:
http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=5286 This is a link to the whole letter
Wow many good posts,
Handy, I lived in the area, until I pcsed last May, Most of the minutemen are not looking for a gunfight. I place the minutemen along the lines of a neighbrhood watch program, only in some cases your neighbors fenceline is several miles away. Last year they posted some people along Highway 92.
Let me orient y'all to photo, Highway 92 runs east/west, and at this location is about 5.1 Km from the border. If you use your cell phone to call the police, well, lets just say it could be the sherriff, state police, or maybe one of the local municipalities, but response time may be slow. The smart person carries "backup" with them regardless of their profession.
Also to put things in perspective here is a bit from Ray Borane, mayor of Douglas, Ariz., from a letter to the Aspen Daily News, dated July 8, 1999:
http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=5286 This is a link to the whole letter
Attachments
MM participants are not "looking for vigilante combat" -- they are addressing an issue that they feel affects their cities, towns, and communities where they see too much inaction from their elected officials and legislators. But you know this already, which makes the fact that you're posting this crap even more curious.
Assuming MM participants are "looking for vigilante combat", and that they're "looking to shoot and get shot at"... get real. Stop stirring the pot and post something reasonable.
I don't think MM participants want that, and the organizers certainly don't want it.
But some of the posters here obviously feel that they can't "watch and report" without a rifle, and seem to have some sort of expectation of "action".
I think what the MM are doing is fine, but I think the attitude of this thread is not. MM is not an invitation to play Rambo, and it seems laughable that this is so objectionable to some that they refuse to participate on those grounds.
But some of the posters here obviously feel that they can't "watch and report" without a rifle, and seem to have some sort of expectation of "action".
I think what the MM are doing is fine, but I think the attitude of this thread is not. MM is not an invitation to play Rambo, and it seems laughable that this is so objectionable to some that they refuse to participate on those grounds.
I completely agree, Handy. Any reasonable person would. I think the MM's spokesperson(s) has done a great job providing a complimentary image of the MM's participants, and their general mission. Most people understand MM is not for Rambos. Though the media has tried to paint the MM in this light -- just as some have tried to do to others in this thread.
I think it's reasonable that some may feel apprehensive with regard to participating in the MM project w/out a more affective means of defense than a handgun can provide in such terrain. This is following news reports of heavily armed BG's and Mexican military encounters on the border. Something pointed out earlier in this thread.
Is there danger involved? Of course – we all agree on this point I’m sure. I suppose some are willing to take the risk for something in which they believe strongly. As far as I’m concerned, there is nothing wrong with that.
I feel it's also practical to have a reasonable expectation of "action" - as you put it. What would be perverse is to have an overzealous response to any "action" encountered and therefore compromise the projects intent. I’m not certain that’s what posters are saying, at least I don't believe we've seen any posts definitively stating as much. But it’s possible I’ve missed a post or two.
kingudaroad
New member
Here is an article by the Washington times talking about a planned attack against the minutemen to "teach them a lesson".
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050328-125306-7868r.htm
You don't think these drug smuggling gang members have high power sniper rifles. Time for the government to help instead of hinder the effort IMO.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050328-125306-7868r.htm
You don't think these drug smuggling gang members have high power sniper rifles. Time for the government to help instead of hinder the effort IMO.
Minutemen
Perhaps, in retrospect, the choice of the term "Minutemen" was not the best, as it does connote the image of a man with a rifle., Having said that, I have a deep respect for what those guys are trying to accomplish.
Painted from the very beginning by the media and the left as "armed wackos seeking violent confrontation", (which even Bush bought into) they have done a tremendous job of keeping the issue in the public eye, WITHOUT breaking any laws, OR otherwise fitting into the stereotype that the left believes them to be.
I find their policy against open carry of rfles while on post (and what's in your truck is your business) quite practical. In view of what they are trying to do, NOT fitting into the media's preconcieved image is very important.
Their mission is honorable, legal and just, and they deserve our support.
Perhaps, in retrospect, the choice of the term "Minutemen" was not the best, as it does connote the image of a man with a rifle., Having said that, I have a deep respect for what those guys are trying to accomplish.
Painted from the very beginning by the media and the left as "armed wackos seeking violent confrontation", (which even Bush bought into) they have done a tremendous job of keeping the issue in the public eye, WITHOUT breaking any laws, OR otherwise fitting into the stereotype that the left believes them to be.
I find their policy against open carry of rfles while on post (and what's in your truck is your business) quite practical. In view of what they are trying to do, NOT fitting into the media's preconcieved image is very important.
Their mission is honorable, legal and just, and they deserve our support.
Varmint Eviscerator
New member
some of you guys are disturbingly trigger happy, however I in turn would like to build a 50ft cement wall between our borders. that being said....
HOMEADE HOWITZER MUZZLELOADER CANNON-perfectly legal cus it doesnt qualify as a firearm by ATF!!!
Get hydraulic cylinder off junkyard CAT piece of equipment. Seal one end. Make a concrete mould and surround the pipe in concrete. Build carriage, an old radio flyer wagon works great, get a work gear and ballistic pocket calculator and fifty pounds of bp or... smokless as hydraulic cylinders can definitly take the pressure. make your own balls or a couple 52 cal muzzle loader balls fro grape shot
couldnt resist!
Chase
HOMEADE HOWITZER MUZZLELOADER CANNON-perfectly legal cus it doesnt qualify as a firearm by ATF!!!
Get hydraulic cylinder off junkyard CAT piece of equipment. Seal one end. Make a concrete mould and surround the pipe in concrete. Build carriage, an old radio flyer wagon works great, get a work gear and ballistic pocket calculator and fifty pounds of bp or... smokless as hydraulic cylinders can definitly take the pressure. make your own balls or a couple 52 cal muzzle loader balls fro grape shot
couldnt resist!
Chase
Post #39
Handy, in ananswer to your question YES, I would and did do that for seven years. We were called Pokice Reserves and I worked 20 hours a week plus vacations in the roughest part of a town of 250,000. My shoft was 8PM to 5AM Absolutely no pay or compensation. THey did however provide me with a uniform, one summer and one winter every year.
I guess it shows some people have a higher sense of duty than others I'm glad those of the first "Minutemen" didn't ask how much they were going to be paid before grabbing their squirrel rifles. We'd be eating tea and crumpets.
Handy, in ananswer to your question YES, I would and did do that for seven years. We were called Pokice Reserves and I worked 20 hours a week plus vacations in the roughest part of a town of 250,000. My shoft was 8PM to 5AM Absolutely no pay or compensation. THey did however provide me with a uniform, one summer and one winter every year.
I guess it shows some people have a higher sense of duty than others I'm glad those of the first "Minutemen" didn't ask how much they were going to be paid before grabbing their squirrel rifles. We'd be eating tea and crumpets.
gunslinger555
New member
how about this "sidearm" http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=47662791
Rangefinder
New member
Trigger-happy? Well, I have to admit---I DO get really happy when I squeeze the trigger... LOL As to THIS whole situation, I completely understand the reasoning behind the MM project not wanting the open carry of rifles--thanks to our media and a high population of bleeding-hearts, it would do nothing but hinder the purposes of the project. On the other hand, I would also say it's a wise move to have rifles "available" should the need present itself. Like so many other things--I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Personally, I can't say just how comfortable I'd be down there without a rifle within reasonable access. I'm not trigger happy in that sense, but if someone jumping the border starts lobbing rifle rounds at me from a distance, I really wouldn't pause and think much before smoke'n them with one of my own.
Jump the border, ok--you're an illegal immigrant. I don't like it, but there isn't much more I can do at the moment besides kick you back and hope you don't try again before night fall (generally speaking). BUT---Shoot at me in the process--it's war, and you've just identified yourself as my enemy. You'd better pray you're a better shot than I am because I'll loose no sleep over making my enemy into a coyote buffet.
Jump the border, ok--you're an illegal immigrant. I don't like it, but there isn't much more I can do at the moment besides kick you back and hope you don't try again before night fall (generally speaking). BUT---Shoot at me in the process--it's war, and you've just identified yourself as my enemy. You'd better pray you're a better shot than I am because I'll loose no sleep over making my enemy into a coyote buffet.
Dust_Devil
New member
The original Minutemen were an armed group of men ready to defend their country. The gave their lives for their country.
The Minutemen currently watching our border may be giving their time, but aren't giving their lives nor are they armed to defend their country. They are more of unarmed reconnaissance.
When you take an image of the original armed Minuteman and take away the weapon and add some binoculars and a cell phone on the Minuteman's hands, that somewhat smears the image of those true Minutemen that truly were ready to defend their country.
My advice to the Minutemen today is to drop their current name and call themselves what they really are; Border Watchers, Border Recon, or something like that.
If the Minuteman Project want to be a non-violent group then that is their choice, but who says that those illegaly entering into our country aren't violent and armed? A cell phone isn't going to stop the armed drug smuggler entering across the border and the time the Border Patrol responds to some call from a Minuteman member, that unarmed Minuteman member can be already killed by the armed drug smuggler trespassing into the U.S.
As far as a truly effective border guard, then you would have to be armed as you may have to use force to stop someone from illegally entering. But since our government doesn't use our, What do you call those guys again?, Oh, yeah, NATIONAL GUARD, to, uh, ummm, GUARD our country, then I can see where many citizens do want to take up arms to do the job that our own government and armed forces aren't taking part in except for a few border patrol agents covering thousands of miles of U.S. border.
I suppose if you want our government to place our own armed forces at our own borders then you may have to put a small, foreign, Islamic, oil producing, middle-eastern country there.
The Minutemen currently watching our border may be giving their time, but aren't giving their lives nor are they armed to defend their country. They are more of unarmed reconnaissance.
When you take an image of the original armed Minuteman and take away the weapon and add some binoculars and a cell phone on the Minuteman's hands, that somewhat smears the image of those true Minutemen that truly were ready to defend their country.
My advice to the Minutemen today is to drop their current name and call themselves what they really are; Border Watchers, Border Recon, or something like that.
If the Minuteman Project want to be a non-violent group then that is their choice, but who says that those illegaly entering into our country aren't violent and armed? A cell phone isn't going to stop the armed drug smuggler entering across the border and the time the Border Patrol responds to some call from a Minuteman member, that unarmed Minuteman member can be already killed by the armed drug smuggler trespassing into the U.S.
As far as a truly effective border guard, then you would have to be armed as you may have to use force to stop someone from illegally entering. But since our government doesn't use our, What do you call those guys again?, Oh, yeah, NATIONAL GUARD, to, uh, ummm, GUARD our country, then I can see where many citizens do want to take up arms to do the job that our own government and armed forces aren't taking part in except for a few border patrol agents covering thousands of miles of U.S. border.
I suppose if you want our government to place our own armed forces at our own borders then you may have to put a small, foreign, Islamic, oil producing, middle-eastern country there.