Minimum Wage Clerks Interpreting Your Rights

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Rich Lucibella

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Well this is an ongoing battle, suggestive of trends thruout our society. After a couple of years of carrying my 3.6" folding Sebenza knife on board domestic aircraft without problem, the battle is now on. This started some 3 weeks ago when I left from Palm Beach for Phoenix. The clerk at PBI security opened the Sebenza and declared it too long. I explained that it wasn't and, when he refused to listen, I asked for a supervisor.

She, having taken the same intelligence test for the job as he, walked over and agreed that it was too long and would have to go thru baggage claim. I refused an asked for a rep from Delta or a Sky Marshall. I demanded to see the regs. The Super placed the blade across her palm and said "Too long". I put it across my palm and said "Just right". She actually stated, "It's my palm that counts". At first I was refused the regs as they are "confidential". Finally, the sheet was produced. It states a prohibition of knives "over 4" or 'menacing' in appearance". She claimed not to have a ruler. Zip goes my bag and out comes a ruler from my planner.

At this point dipstick #1 changes his mind. The Sebenza is now "menacing". The Sebenza is a single edged, nonserrated knife... http://www.chrisreeve.com/sebenza.html I almost lost it, but persisted in politely demanding a SkyMarshall or Delta rep. I asked what kind of a pocket knife would be acceptable, if this wasn't. I asked this several times. Each time I was treated like the Invisible Man as they waited for reinforcements.

Finally the Delta rep comes down and notes that I have 3 minutes to make the plane. She takes the knife and runs with it open to the gate where it is boxed and sent down to the ramp. Needless to say, at the other end, Delta was presented with my baggage claim check and couldn't find the box. $425 claim has been filed.

Round II:
Yesterday I board the same flight on the same day with the same model knife. Guess who's there? You got it. Dipstick #1. Only this time, to my relief, there's a cop there.
"Knife's too long."
"No it's not. Measure it"
"I't's too long. Take it to baggage claim."

At this point, I ask the officer to step in. He snarls at me "Take it upstairs"
"But..."
"I said take it upstairs."
I smile and say, "I guess one of us has forgotten what Country we live in."
I didn't wait around for his reaction.

Up to the ticket counter. Minor tirade about minimum wage morons deciding they still wanted to do things as they were done in Haiti. Angry looks from the other ticket agents. I can't understand why, as I was only stating facts. Back down thru security. Dipstick #1 present, sans police escort. After being wanded, sniffed and glared at, I stated rather calmly, "Let me know when you become an American citizen. I'll celebrate your education."

At this point, another uniformed lady takes great offense and starts yelling at me, in Spanish accent, to "Just keep walking". I do so (backward), while explaining that they should each desire to become American citizens...no-one corrected my perception.

This war ain't over, though I doubt that the head of PBI security is gonna be much more libertarian than his gobots!
Rich

(FWIW, I feel the need to defend my politically incorrect statements with the following facts. The executors of my will are a two longtime friends. A black lady and my former partner...a Cuban immigrant. I'm first generation Italian immigrant. I hate myself for succumbing to the temptation to provide this explanation.)

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited September 20, 1999).]
 
Rich:

Good for you...I never suffer fools gladly either.

In round two, had they found and returned the original knife or: you bought another Sebenza; it was a back-up, duplicate Sebenza?
If original was lost, any trouble in getting Delta to pay for it?

You don't need to explain your reasons for why you blasted them, even if they were imigrants/minorities...an idiot is an idiot and they earned it.

Too bad the cop was as big an idiot as they were.

Mike
 
Rich,

Yikes!!! That is pretty scary. Sounds like you kept your head through it and touche for the citizenship comments.

I hope you take this flight on a regular basis and keep hammering them. By habit, I dump all metal into the front pocket of my carry-on just to avoid the wand and it's hassle.

From now on though, I think I might start carrying a larger (legal) blade and test the citizenship standards at this end. (Sky Harbor)

Dago
 
Rich, at least you got jerked around over a knife. I once missed a flight because a couple of the min-wage-morons were insisting that I plug in and operate a notebook computer docking station (which I did while explainig that there was nothing to see -). When they couldn't figure it out, I asked for a supervisor, but they were completely unresponsive to my request, but another one with marginal language skills jumped in to 'help out'. Eventually the volume got high enough that a supervsior showed up. By this time I was doing verbal hemaroidectomys on everyone present, casting aspersions on their lineage as if they were the first generation of their family to walk upright, asking why they were inspecting gadgets they knew nothing about, and pointing out that this is an English-speaking country and if they wish to prosper here they damn well better learn the language. I got damn little satisfaction in abusing the hell out of those people (although I enjoyed it at the time), but I ripped the supervisor a new one, and got a piece of his boss later, but never did get an apology. I hope you have better luck. I changed jobs and have more or less quit flying, Airports are stupidity magnets. My blood pressure's up just reading your post. Pax, M2
 
Keep up the fight, Rich. That is ridiculous, if it's clearly under 4", within the regs. What is absolutely absurd is the reg that allows the subjective judgment of "menacing appearance". It's one thing when your rights are violated, yet where you can correct them through the proper procedural channels (as I'm sure you will) via reference to an objective standard (e.g. 4"). But when the dipstick says it's menacing, there's nothing you can do, because you can't prove it doesn't actually appear menacing to him. Truly moronic.
 
Keep us posted. Wonder what they would think about my Spyderco Native?

What flight is this, Rich? Where to? How much? Damn, I'd save up to get on it behind you with another just like it. We could get ten or twenty in a line :)

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Byron Quick
 
Rich,

There was NO expaination needed for your remarks, and anyone on this board who would take offense needs their skin thickness measured.

Spartacus,

I love your idea about getting in line! Count me in at Phoenix Sky Harbor!

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
Menacing appearance...

maybe your knife needs a dZ Barbie Lovemaster treatment
:)
next time put some i love you, Barney stickers on the blade

it amazes me what passes for security these daze

Riches problem was he honest & let them see the blade.
tuck it in the carry on & they would prolly never notice it to flag it on the scan

the boot up test of a laptop tells them what?
that a cpu is functioning? gee, last time i checked, laptops are quite diverse in their ability to run a variety of programs...

a truly inspired individual could prolly get anything past these in-duh-viduals
i don't think you have to be the man with the golden gun...

oh that? thats just a 9mm videocamera...
it has a great red dot eye piece
in the bag are the extra battery clips

when our existance is mediated by the lowest common denominator, our rights are divisable by one

dZ

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will you stand with me in DC on 10-2-99?
http://www.myplanet.net/jeffhead/LibMarch
 
The boot up test is supposed to allow them to decide that it is not a bomb.
Rich; you done good. The problem with taking a stand is that you usually have ti missyour connection because they cant a sensible decision in time. As far as the aspersions about illiterate immigrants, most of the immigrants that I have known on both sides of my family took pride in the fact that they COULD read and write and speak English.


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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Airport security seems to be hapazard. I have had security "personnel" (I decline to use the word professionals) demand that my pager make a beeping sound before it would be allowed thru, while friends have walked thru with OC spray, small knives, etc...

The security people had a cow when I tried once to carry on a metal plaque in my bag. I had to take it out and explain what it was!

(Gee, I wish I could perfect that gun trick that Kevin Kline did to get past the airport metal detectors in the movie "A Fish called Wanda"....)
 
As usual, you guys are the best. I left after posting this morning, thinking it was unfair to use TFL for my own personal rant. Came back in here to delete the topic! Silly me.

In answer to some questions:

- The second Sebenza is a spare, stolen from my lady 'till Delta coughs up for the first.

- I'm aware that the pocketknife will pass in the pocket of carry on (that's where serrated Spyderco Crickett money clip or Mad Dog fixed blade Micro goes. ;)) But I carry in my waistband for the same reason I carry a firearm open, rather than concealed in AZ...becauase I can and others should know that they can. Neither do I travel at 50 in a 55 zone or pay just a bit more than the IRS asks to be safe.

I intend to be out here again around the middle of October. I pledge the same flight. Either I'm coming with signed acceptance from the head of PBI security or with the CaneMaster's Custom Combat in my hand and a smile to beat the band on my face. Let 'em try to take that away as I fall over in front of a crowd!!!!

Spart-
I love the idea of thirty of us going thru in unison....imagine a SitIn on the far side of the metal detects as they figure out what to do with us! Reminds me of the Alice's Restaurant Massacree (in three part harmony). It'd be a "movement"! :) :)
Rich


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited September 21, 1999).]
 
Rich,
A buddy of mine had a similar problem at an airport. The blade in question wasn't even a knife, it was a cigar cutter, you know the flat little palstic guilliotine thing with about an inch hole in the side for snipping the end off a smoke. There was smoke comin out his ears when he told me about it a week later. The security "clerk" said he couldn't take it with him, and said it was a dangerous weapon. He jokingly asked her what she thought he was going to do, "break into the cockpit and circumcise the pilot?" at which point she got her panties in a wad and threatened to have him arrested. He started to rip her a new one which attracted "a little" attention from someone with a little more authority and a few more brains, and finally was allowed to board the plane, with the cutter in his pocket.
good luck,
Bergie
 
Ah, PBIA security! I have an even better example of their alleged "competence"!

Several years ago, I was taking my aunt to her flight out before going to work. I ditched my pocketknife and razor knife in the car, to "avoid" potential problems. As I was wearing steel-toed boots, I told the so-called "security" that I was going to set off the alarm beforehand. Never know when some idiot's going to go off at such a thing. Anyhow, they get out their "magic wand" to sweep me, and it goes off, too. Because I was wearing navy blue BDU pants, they apparently assumed the little metal drawstring clasps at the waist must be a concealed Kalashnikov or something. Spend a minute arguing that their picking up on a pathetic little buckle and my aunt's saying she can carry her own bag the rest of the way. This whole thing is getting me miffed, and I end up taking off my belt to show the morons just what they found so threatening. The crack security professional, a elderly lady that would look more appropriate in a rest home, keeps saying "Do you have a knife, where's the knife?" the entire time.

I suppose this made me so upset because I went out of my way to comply with their silly rules, and got busted on anyway. Fortunately, I didn't lose any pricy steel in the bargin, but the infringiment on one's self is the same.

As an aside, I went through security at the Orlando airport during the World Cup soccer matches with my mother. They let me pass without even glancing at the SOG I put in the bin, but my mom, in another line, had this guy pitch a fit over her Spyderco. It's random harrasment, really. I suppose one should be "thankful" to not be herded into a tiny room and strip-searched by men with MP-5's, nowadays.

Didn't the FAA study show a few years ago that they were able to smuggle weapons successfully about 85% of the time? Perhaps we should just be doing the "Fish Called Wanda" trick, instead.
 
These stories sound like they came out of the old Soviet Union. I remember the cracks comedians used to make about trying to get through the airport security there.
I had a similary hassle with a rent a cop at a state office buiding. I was told that I had to check my Swiss army knife with the state police. I have gone through the same security a hundred times with no problem, but I get this on jerk and he gives me a problem. I asked the trooper, what's the problem, he just said "put it in the draw", and went back to reading the paper. Go figure.

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In the shadow of Bunker Hill from the People's Republic of Massachusetts
 
Rich, it is a shame that you did not have the time to really cause them problems. Tell them that if they think that they have a criminal case, go ahead and make the arrest but that it is there ass in the sling if you miss the flight and/or prosecution does not stick. An airport police officer in OKC was fired over an incedent with me at the Oklahoma City airport and I got a nice phone call from the AP captain apologizing for the inconvienence. This was after a call to the Major of Detectives and the Asst Cheif telling them what a fine job their officers did in resolving the problem. All it takes is time and effort. Most of the airport security personnel are minimum wage bozos that are using this opportunity to power trip and flex a little perceived muscle. I use to work for the FAA and the regs are quite clear. If they misinterpret the regs due to poor training, they and the company that employs them, are liable for any damage that you suffer. Filing a lawsuit is cheap and you can get a letter written by an attorney for about $50. Believe it or not many State Senators are attornies and your letter gets a lot of attention when it comes from the law firm of a Senator. If you have the time and fortitude to call them on it they will put their own butt in the ringer, all you do is squeeze.
 
Rich,
I'm on your side and you know it. But I feel a need to level out the scales somewhat.

The minimum wage bozos who work as security officers are given minimum training before they are licensed - some states require NO training and have NO background check.

In Texas they get (I believe) 40 hours of training (including range time).

I have gone thru the Security Officer class twice - just to make sure I know what it is like. I teach the first aid portion of the Security Officer course.

Although I AM a Security Officer, I refuse to work as one. To say that the state mandated course is woefully inadequate IS woefully inadequate!

So, put a recent graduate in the employ of a company whose supervisor got there by coming to work regularly for six months. The supervisor has NO more training than his subordinates.

He tells them, "Don't let anybody by here with a knife over this long or with any other weapon or you're fired!" And the scene is set.

If most security officers had an education, common sense, and/or any ability to achieve better employment, they would do so. They work unexpected double shifts because their relief just doesn't show up. Sure, the AWOL guy gets fired but then the employee has to work several double shifts - typically without notice. They are called in on holidays (like Christmas) because others don't show up and they must fill in or lose the jobs they need to support their families.

No education. Little or no training. Inadequate guidance. Little or no experience and/or common sense.

Many of them are just glad to be off welfare. Please remember, the little guy doesn't make any decisions - he only does what his supervisor orders. So it's a mess.

There are occasional power mad security officers - just as there are power mad postal employees, police officers, drivers, and K-Mart representatives ( ;) ). But most of them are following the (inadequate) training they received and the (improper) guidance they have been given. They are in constant fear for their livelihood and would rather anger you than their boss. You go away. The boss doesn't.

And the company which is the lowest bidder gets the job.

I guess I must stress I am NOT justifying their actions. I am only trying to remind us that many folks do not have the knowledge and skills even to know how to obtain the knowledge and skills many of us consider common sense.

Therefore, incidents like this are (and will remain) common! Been there, done that on BOTH sides of the fence. It's a shame for ALL concerned.
 
What really ticks me off is that "Menacing appearance" stuff. Isn't that the same excuse that was used to ban alot of good rifles. I suppose now we can look for a ban on "Assault Knives". I guess these clowns would have a heart attack if they saw my pocket companion. Even though the blade is only 3" long, its half serrated and it does have those evil words "Smith & Wesson" on it. These guys would probably be asking what caliber is it and where did you hide the ammo?
You get what you pay for. In this case minimum wage gets you minimum brains.
 
if i wanted to bring a device on board a laptop could easily be configured to be the timer and still function as a computer

the boot up test tells them nothing
hell the cpu could be running gps...

i once had to deliver a laser printer to a US House office building

did the guy running the xray know all the parts were correct?

we have an illusion of security here

At my job we implemented rent a cop security replacing our staff security
with staff security the day after my hire, everyone on security recognized me.

with the rent a cops we had to get ID badges
anyone with a badge is waved thru
forget your badge & they stop you
gee took me about 10 minutes to photoshop up one of those

they don't know the people, they recognize the badge

illusionary security

dZ
 
I think these airport supercops get aweful bored day in and day out...nothing exciting except going through everyone's private affects. These politically correct supercops that you had a run in with must really appreciate thier authority that they get to abuse from time to time.

What a loss~! Two Sebenzas!!!!

I hope you have better success than I've had in recovering "lost" valuables. Mine were reptiles shipped in from FL. They had heat packs and large lettering all over the crate, "DO NOT EXPOSE TO COLD! KEEP IN WARM AREA!"
I waited over 4 hours in shipping, if memory serves. They thought that it was lost in a changover. All the while, they were outside frozen solid on the loaded dock in plain view. The insurance branch of the airline blamed it on the reptile comapany. Hope you get your money for the knives back.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
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