Military Experience

"Neither the White House nor Congress wanted to wait for one given Saddam's track record, intel, willingness to pursue nukes and willingness to
cooperate with terrorists."

Ok, Mr. Armchair Hawk; show me where Saddam pursued nukes after the first Gulf war. Show me where Saddam cooperated with terrorists. You apparently have some fantastic military intelligence connection that no one else has.

"You can look this stuff up instead of regurgitating radical leftist talking points."

Mr. Arm Chair Hawk; it is you who needs to look this stuff up instead of regurgitating the the lies that got us into ghe Iraq war.

BTW, Mr. Arm Chair Hawk, I am a 50 year Republican.
 
As my screen name indicates I am a BTDT . Many people have so far spoken doom and gloom about dying as a "slave" in the military . Only about 10% (myself included) served in the Combat Arms . That is to say we handled wood and steel . 90 % had much different jobs from cook to jeep mechanic . Many of "Da Ghetto Youths" found out about the rest of the world and either stayed for 20/30 years or came out with a trade . They learned that there is an alternative to their enviornment of hanging out , selling drugs , dead end job or whatever . Remember one big thing . The ghetto feeds from within . When someone tries to succeed they are often targeted by the others whose biggest fear is to be left behind . The ambitious ones learn , succeed AND move away . When someone joins up they don't have to stay forever . When they come out they have the option of staying in the reserves . They don't HAVE to . I went to school on the GI Bill and never looked back . I paid my dues and then some . There are those that will never serve their country . As for me , I would blast into the Sand Box tomorrow and give it all I got left . These people support terrorism which was brought home by 9/11 (my sister worked for FDNY and by the Grace of God was at a meeting instead of on her ambulance that day) . The freedoms exercised by many of you was certainly not provided by people like you . The freedom of speech does not make what you say right . It just means that your lips are moving .
 
What did Iraq do on nukes after the '91 war? Hard to tell, but they hadn't given up.
Iraq has provided few credible indications that its nearly three-decade quest for nuclear weapons has ended. Since its invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, however, Iraq has had an extremely difficult time making any progress in building nuclear weapons
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Iraq has denied trying to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program after the Gulf War, although Iraqi documents suggest otherwise, at least for the period right after the war. Documents dated early June 1991 but finished several weeks earlier, called for salvaged equipment for processing safeguarded HEU fuel to be moved from the Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Center to Tarmiya. Only in late May did the first inspection team show up at Tarmiya, unknowingly halting any Iraqi effort to reconstitute these projects there.
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More at the link.
http://www.iraqwatch.org/perspectives/act-alb-hamza-10-98.htm

Cooperation with terrorists?
How about Abu Nidal?
Abu Nidal, one of the world's most infamous terrorists, moved to Baghdad late last year and obtained the protection of President Saddam Hussein, according to intelligence reports received by United States and Middle Eastern government officials. (1999)
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Abu Nidal, already out of favor with the P.L.O. leadership, allied himself with the new Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein...In 1973, with Iraqi weapons, training and intelligence support, he began a wave of terrorism when his group occupied the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Paris and took 11 people hostage.
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http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9805EED71339F934A15752C0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2
OR
Mr. Hayes reports that, from 1999 through 2002, "elite Iraqi military units" trained roughly 8,000 terrorists at three different camps--in Samarra and Ramadi in the Sunni Triangle, as well as at Salman Pak, where American forces in 2003 found the fuselage of an aircraft that might have been used for training. Many of the trainees were drawn from North African terror groups with close ties to al Qaeda, including Algeria's GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Mr. Hayes writes that he had no fewer than 11 corroborating sources, and yesterday he told us he'd added several more since publication.
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http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007809
Or how about the Justice Dept indictment of Bin Laden in 98? (Before Bush, you may recall)
In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.
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http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1998/11/98110602_nlt.html

No fantastic connections, just information that is ignored because it doesn't fit the accepted conventional wisdom that it just can't be true.
 
Holy smokes is that some thread veer! After last post I reread the original thread title....

Back OT. I like the idea of more service but am not comfortable requiring it of everyone.

I don't think that the President should be required to have military service, combat or otherwise. I do certainly think it's a point in their favor, but I've known too many troops, officer and enlisted, to think that it is necessarily going to select out any particular 'bad trait'.

It is impossible for the President to be an expert in everything that falls under his authority. What I do expect him to do is use the advice of those who are experts in their field.
 
I could support mandatory national service, but not necessarily military service. Getting young people away from their familiar environments and contributing to society might not be such a bad thing.
 
somewhere there is an article that was taken from an interpretor that was debriefing Saddam. He admitted he stopped working on WMD but was trying to make every one think he had them. his thinking was if Iran thought he had them they wouldn't invade. He also thought Bush wouldn't invade just give him 3 or 4 days of bombing. he could live with that. You might say he out smarted himself and paid with his neck.
 
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I was 1A, had a low draft number and took my physical 3 weeks before Nixon called off the draft. Luckily Vietnam was not meant for me but always semi-regretted not serving in the military. In those days joining didn't seem like the wise thing to do.

In the early 70's, you had a choice of college or the military. Two Questions:

Should we have mandatory service requirements after high school ?

Do you believe it would be beneficial if our President had some military experience?
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I was in about the same boat. I knew people that went to Nam. None of them would really talk about their experiences past boot camp. They all basically said it was some bad s**t over there and for me to do whatever I had to to keep from going. They called off the draft and I was relieved. Later in life I deeply regretted not serving. Yes I think everybody ought to have to serve in some capacity. I think the military would straighten out a lot of kids. I know it would have straightened me out and I desperately needed some straightening out.
 
Ok, Mr. Armchair Hawk; show me where Saddam pursued nukes after the first Gulf war. Show me where Saddam cooperated with terrorists. You apparently have some fantastic military intelligence connection that no one else has.
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It's been available for years. It's been largely blacked out by the popular press for obvious reasons but if that's your sole source of news you will have a skewed perspective. The news 'reporting' on this war has been horrible. Looks like Mike beat me to the punch but you could also look at the Iraqi Survey Group's final report, four years old at this point:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2004/isg-final-report/index.html


http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/l...l-report/isg-final-report_vol2_nuclear-02.htm
ISG has uncovered two instances in which scientists linked to Iraq’s pre-1991 uranium enrichment programs kept documentation and technology in anticipation of renewing these efforts—actions that they contend were officially sanctioned.

* A former engineer in the pre-1991 EMIS program claimed he was told by the head of MIC in 1997 to continue his work with ion implantation at his Al Tahaddi lab as a way to preserve EMIS technology.
* The former head of Iraq’s pre-1991 centrifuge program also retained prohibited documents and components in apparent violation of the Regime’s directives. Though this activity was isolated, it also had the potential to contribute to a possible restart of Iraq’s uranium enrichment programs.
* Additional details on the disclosures of these two former enrichment officials can be found in the section of the report concerning Hidden Enrichment Technology.

Furthermore, although all of the officials interviewed by ISG indicated Iraq had ended its pursuit of nuclear weapons in 1991, some suggested Saddam remained interested in reconstitution of the nuclear program after sanctions were lifted. Specific details concerning Saddam’s continued intent to develop weapons of mass destruction can be found in the section of this report concerning Regime Strategic Intent.

Consistent with Saddam’s nuclear ambitions, starting around 1992, Iraq directed scientific expertise to several Iraqi establishments. This action would be consistent with either preserving knowledge for the eventual reestablishment of the nuclear weapon program or with simply utilizing Iraq’s technical expertise in areas where it was most needed. In either case, some of the work performed by these former PC-3 scientists inherently preserved some capabilities that would be needed for a reconstituted nuclear weapon program. Details on these activities can be found in the sections of the report concerning IAEC Modernization, University Programs, and Migration of PC-3 Capabilities.

Mr. Arm Chair Hawk; it is you who needs to look this stuff up instead of regurgitating the the lies that got us into ghe Iraq war.

BTW, Mr. Arm Chair Hawk, I am a 50 year Republican.
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That's great but if you read what I said, I said you were regurgitating leftist talking points. I don't know your voting record but you aren't helping our troops in harm's way by repeating nonsense and name calling instead of looking into it yourself.
 
I think that a mandatory draft would undermine the military.
By maintaining the ranks with volunteers you are somewhat assured that those are people that want to be there.

I would prefer that the person leading the country had some type of military experience but do not demand it.
There are so many things that make a person a great leader that dictating they have military service doesn't make good sense.

I typically do not discuss my participation in the USN because of how people judge you. It seems today that the consensus is that military people are something to be looked down on.
My opinion is that we need to be taking better care of our veterans.
Medically, psychologically and financially.
The cities that I was stationed in treated the military like second class citizens. You would think they could recognize the benefit of having a base near them.
 
Easy .. yes and yes to both questions.

As Commander-In-Chief, seems it would be helpful to actually have been in the military and know how it works. Any idiot can give orders (as we've seen to our sorrow) ...Perhaps those orders would be slower in coming if the President had actually had a few live rounds flying past his head.

Sadly, many of our youth now are simply looking to see what the government will give them, not what they can give back to the country. Mandatory service is a bad second choice to voluntary service, but maybe it would inspire some to sign up without having to be dragged .. and that doesn't mean just the military. Serving your local city or state in some capacity might be a useful option.

By the way ... joined the Air Force in 1965, served through 1969. The experience was one of the best of my life; cliche, but it made me a man and opened my eyes to so many different points of view. I recommend it to all my nieces and nephews (don't have kids), tho few will even consider it now.
 
I was 1A, had a low draft number and took my physical 3 weeks before Nixon called off the draft.
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Nixon left quite a legacy but was one of my favorites due to the above. Talk about great timing.

Ditto - We spent 15 years in San Angelo TX home of Goodfellow AFB. GAFB was on the hit list for closure many times but the community fought hard to keep it open and was successful. I believe most small cities recognize the importance of a base to it's local economy. Maybe not in the larger cities.
 
If you have not already done, so read a comprehensive history of the draft in the US. During the Civil War there were anti-draft riots in the north. The NY draft riot in 1863 was the worst one. During the Civil War fat cats who could afford it were able to buy their way out of the draft or hire a substitute. John D. Rockefeller took this option.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html
 
yes there should be a mandatory enlistment after high school, they don't have to be infantry, there are plenty of other jobs that need fulfilled where they can stay outta harms way. hell even border patrol, or completely reorganizing the national guard into border patrol and calling the current national guard the army reserve.

the president doesn't need to be former military, thats what the sec def is for.
 
As an Army veteran (RA) and retired LTC, USAR I still haven't decided how I
feel about my military service. The real advantages to military service are:
1. It teaches you how to live with others. Here's one to ask all the liberals-how many of them have been in a position where a member of a minority group was their superior?
2. When you don't have the power to hire and fire, you really develop some
people skills, and really learn how to lead.
3. When women assume the command positions that men have filled, they really come face to face with the problems men have had to deal with. One woman officer I knew in the Reserves commanded a maintenance company in Desert Storm, she was very caustic about some of the goof offs and slackers
and "Family Problem Guys" she had to deal with. She said she made sure that
every female EM who got pregnant to get out of overseas duty recieved a
Letter of Reprimand and a Commander's Recommendation that they NOT be allowed to reenlist.
I also like to joke that I would take all these people who see the Defense
budget as a cash cow to pay for social programs, throw them in the Quantum
Leap Transporter, and make sure they find themselves as a GI in Korea in that
desparate summer of 1950. THEn we'll take about cutting defense spending.
I agree that military service does alter one's outlook. In reading about the
events leading up to the Spanish American War of 1898, I learned that one of
the biggest doves was McKinley, noy because he was a coward or a pacifist
but because as a Civil War veterans he had seen the bodies pile up and knew
an actual battlefield was quite different from a Currier and Ives print.
 
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