I don't know how you define "direct threat'. Afghanistan made no public service anouncement that I am aware of. Did you know that the majority of Democrats voted for invading Iraq after discussing the same intel the White House had. Otherwise they would have certainly brought forth charges and it would be the #1 campaign issue.
Military Experience
- Thread starter SamHouston
- Start date
"I don't know how you define "direct threat'."
The US was attacked by terrorists head quartered in Afghanistan. The US had a right to go to war there. Iraq did not present any threat to the US. There were not terrorists operating against the US from Iraq.
BTW: I could give a big crap that the Democrats in congress bought the lies, distortions and excuses that the neo-con artists used to drum up the Iraq war. It was a dumb decision.
The US was attacked by terrorists head quartered in Afghanistan. The US had a right to go to war there. Iraq did not present any threat to the US. There were not terrorists operating against the US from Iraq.
BTW: I could give a big crap that the Democrats in congress bought the lies, distortions and excuses that the neo-con artists used to drum up the Iraq war. It was a dumb decision.
Believing in a "well regulated militia" and all that it means, I think we should have Universal Military TRAINING, but not mandatory service. I think learning to master any skill in the military makes you a better person and the military has a lot of occupational specialties that directly transfer to civilian work. I consider it a part of a good education and a benefit to citizenship. However forcing people to serve is slavery IMO.
I am one. I do believe the decision to go to war is made more gravely by a man who knows more than just the dollar cost, but having served in war and in peace, I know that the military took on a whole new outlook for me after having served in Iraq. Before it was four years I'd spend playing with guns and getting to do fun things (and yes- truly miserable things that I still remember fondly). After the war and the older I get the more I realize what the military is about and why Clinton was so wrong to start messing with it, but then- Bush got dirty magazines banned from the PX, so social engineering occurs on both sides.
Lincoln had been a militia officer with Artillery. Eisenhower didn't so much command as he appointed officers who had and he ran the political game- also very important as he was a career Army officer with a lot of staff experience.
FDR knew what outcome he wanted clearly and made it known in general by not asking for an "authorization for the use of force" against Japan but for a Declaration of War. I am happy I served and have advised others that if you have that little voice pushing you that direction then enlist because that voice will never go away and once you pass 35 or so, the voice becomes regret and by having a regret that you didn't serve, you'll value your manhood less. However- there are many, many hundreds of thousands of Americans for whom military service never will cross their minds, and that's OK as well. Somebody has to pay for the soldier's salary, food and housing.
There's no dishonor in not serving, there's only your personal feelings to consider and if you really think it will make you a better person, it probably will. If you are ever forced to do it against your will, it won't do anything but waste a couple years of your life. Like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it and those drafted tend to not put a lot into it.
I am one. I do believe the decision to go to war is made more gravely by a man who knows more than just the dollar cost, but having served in war and in peace, I know that the military took on a whole new outlook for me after having served in Iraq. Before it was four years I'd spend playing with guns and getting to do fun things (and yes- truly miserable things that I still remember fondly). After the war and the older I get the more I realize what the military is about and why Clinton was so wrong to start messing with it, but then- Bush got dirty magazines banned from the PX, so social engineering occurs on both sides.
Lincoln had been a militia officer with Artillery. Eisenhower didn't so much command as he appointed officers who had and he ran the political game- also very important as he was a career Army officer with a lot of staff experience.
FDR knew what outcome he wanted clearly and made it known in general by not asking for an "authorization for the use of force" against Japan but for a Declaration of War. I am happy I served and have advised others that if you have that little voice pushing you that direction then enlist because that voice will never go away and once you pass 35 or so, the voice becomes regret and by having a regret that you didn't serve, you'll value your manhood less. However- there are many, many hundreds of thousands of Americans for whom military service never will cross their minds, and that's OK as well. Somebody has to pay for the soldier's salary, food and housing.
There's no dishonor in not serving, there's only your personal feelings to consider and if you really think it will make you a better person, it probably will. If you are ever forced to do it against your will, it won't do anything but waste a couple years of your life. Like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it and those drafted tend to not put a lot into it.
thallub said:
You also didn't understand my point that prior to 9/11 there was no "direct threat". Neither the White House nor Congress wanted to wait for one given Saddam's track record, intel, willingness to pursue nukes and willingness to
cooperate with terrorists. You can look this stuff up instead of regurgitating radical leftist talking points.
You are obvioulsy too rabidly against Bush to understand what I said. The Democrats saw the same intelligence and came to the same conclusion. That's why I added "they would have brought forth charges".
You also didn't understand my point that prior to 9/11 there was no "direct threat". Neither the White House nor Congress wanted to wait for one given Saddam's track record, intel, willingness to pursue nukes and willingness to
cooperate with terrorists. You can look this stuff up instead of regurgitating radical leftist talking points.
Perldog007
New member
Mandatory service: No. I am glad I did, but the military is not for everybody and everybody is not for the military. The leadership has enough challenges with people who volunteered. Conscription adds another layer of fudge to situations that are already plenty "fudged up".
Commander in Chief with military experience : More desirable than the alternative IMO, but something I would have to look at on a case by case basis.
I might vote for Hillary over some I have served with if that were the only choice. Lesser of two evils and all that. In particular, one NCO who was running around during the crash on the Nimitz in '81 handing out speeding tickets for haircuts comes to mind.
Over all though, I think it helps for the CIC to have some idea of what they are commanding.
Commander in Chief with military experience : More desirable than the alternative IMO, but something I would have to look at on a case by case basis.
I might vote for Hillary over some I have served with if that were the only choice. Lesser of two evils and all that. In particular, one NCO who was running around during the crash on the Nimitz in '81 handing out speeding tickets for haircuts comes to mind.
Over all though, I think it helps for the CIC to have some idea of what they are commanding.
Absolutely not. First, the US government military does not need anywhere close to the numbers you're talking about each year, even if recruiting numbers were being met in full.
Second, involuntary servitude is repugnant to a Constitutional Republic based on freedom and liberty, which ours is, or at least was until the 20th century. Compulsory military service is, in my opinion, a violation of the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution, court cases to the contrary notwithstanding.
No.
It is common to think that military experience would dampen the desire to send troops into harms way. If you look at those who've served in the military, including those with actual on the ground combat experience, there's no evidence that their experience even slightly affected their interest in committing troops to battle.
JuanCarlos
New member
We called ourselves a free country during WWII as well, and that was fought with draftees. Same for Korea, and Vietnam (and back to WWI, and the Civil War, etc.). And we had conscription during peacetime between those as well. The tide didn't really turn against the draft until we started sending large numbers of draftees to die for what the public had deemed a pointless war...nowadays we just let our volunteers die on those, and everybody's happy.
"The tide didn't really turn against the draft until we started sending large numbers of draftees to die for what the public had deemed a pointless war...nowadays we just let our volunteers die on those, and everybody's happy."
Bingo!!! Some armchair hawks even think that the military should not have a pay raise.
Bingo!!! Some armchair hawks even think that the military should not have a pay raise.
warrior poet
New member
I guess it all boils down to a HUGE gap in understanding between the government and the people. And as for everyone being happy when only the volunteers die... NOT SO. I'm fairly sure those who died aren't happy, and I KNOW that those who've served with them are not either. I've lost 11 'drinking buddies' since 2003 alone, and almost 25 since I started in the USMC in 1995- minus a few years where I tried being a civilian.
Unfortunately, "...war is old men debating and young men dying..." to use a quote from 'Johnny Get Your Gun,' if memory serves. I just wish the government had some idea of what it means to be deployed, see friends die, and come home to ever more dwindling support. I wish they could see the toll it takes on our families. As of yet, Thank God, I haven't been subjected to what my father and uncle had to endure on returning from Vietnam.
Unfortunately, "...war is old men debating and young men dying..." to use a quote from 'Johnny Get Your Gun,' if memory serves. I just wish the government had some idea of what it means to be deployed, see friends die, and come home to ever more dwindling support. I wish they could see the toll it takes on our families. As of yet, Thank God, I haven't been subjected to what my father and uncle had to endure on returning from Vietnam.
Rangefinder
New member
So far it seems that the public see the soldier as an unfortunate by-stander to govenmental actions rather than the cause of the issue in question, as was the general view in the vietnam era---thankfully we learned something along the way.
JuanCarlos
New member
Yes, by "everybody" I meant everybody on the other side of the gigantic divide between those who are directly affected by it and those that aren't (a divide that a thousand flags or yellow ribbons can not bridge). You know, about 75% of the country.
And of course, even that is just hyperbole since a large number of people are becoming less and less okay with it anyway...but it only took five years, and now it's starting to take a backseat to the economy, since that actually affects them directly.
Indeed. I've never understood the logic of blaming soldiers, particularly draftees, for the things they were made to do by politicians.
Agreed, even though a draft, if widespread enough and unevadable, might make the public more inclined to take war more seriously.
War is a great money making opportunity for US corporations from old established ones like GE to start-ups like Blackwater, so the only thing which might restrain the government from constant warmongering is serious voter opposition at the polls. When our country can be involved in wars which don't affect the vast majority of citizens, there is little opposition. Unfortunately, those presently serving in the military and their friends and family back home seem to be the only ones affected.
Mandatory military service would benefit this country. Socially, we're being made dumber and less self-reliant by the second. But more importantly, we've lost touch with what it is to serve something other than oneself. Some of my friends who dropped out of college to enlist, when I went to OCS... the support was questionable at best. It might just be the circles I run in, but most people think "Well, if you can make a ton of money, why would you do anything else, are you crazy?" They simply never felt that there might be any higher calling. That attitude is not going to instill the values in our coming generations that they will need to keep America as the first world nation.
I could never support a draft under the current US system, which allows for non-defensive wars. "Department of Defense" is a euphemism, as is "defense contractor." There is nothing "defensive" about what the US is doing on the other side of the world.
What I would like to see is a citizen-militia type of system that all able-bodied males participate in, much like that of the Swiss. We could retain a professional air force and navy, but rather than having a standing army, we would just arm the population, provide training in schools, etc. This would not only be a bulwark against domestic tyranny, it would provide the US with a huge infantry reserve.
The present system is headed in the direction of allowing people to bear military arms only in service to the government. That's very dangerous.
What I would like to see is a citizen-militia type of system that all able-bodied males participate in, much like that of the Swiss. We could retain a professional air force and navy, but rather than having a standing army, we would just arm the population, provide training in schools, etc. This would not only be a bulwark against domestic tyranny, it would provide the US with a huge infantry reserve.
The present system is headed in the direction of allowing people to bear military arms only in service to the government. That's very dangerous.
Let it Bleed
New member
Yikes!
The only other option is that the military controls the government. Isn't that the greatest threat to democracy? There are reasons the U.S. has never undergone a coup. Hopefully there will never be a time in which the rank and file serving in the military will obey orders that are contrary to the commands of civil authority.
warrior poet
New member
Don't get me wrong, I do not want the military to run the government- I've seen what lieutenants can do. 
But there has to be someway to bridge this gap in understanding.
But there has to be someway to bridge this gap in understanding.Rangefinder
New member
The point was that once upon a time the military's purpose was to ensure the safety of our nation and protect our way of life from being taken away by another country with hostile intent-----so to speak. The current curcumstance is more along the line of military equals political puppet with which to inject/enforce political agenda abroad. Therein lies the difference I was referring to.
I graduate from college this may. I always have said I would not die for this war, but it still nagged at me that my generation was fighting this war for me and all I ever did was protest against it while our boys and girls where still dying in Iraq/Afghanistan. So I decided to go to my nearest armed forces recruiting station (NAVY was closest, so I went there). Got the usual selling points but I was basically turned away because I had recurring asthma in my teens.
At the time (2 weeks ago), I felt bitter (like I had failed or something) but after awhile I just came to terms with the fact that I couldn't do anything about it. So yes, I do feel I missed out on paying my dues for my country and my generation (even if I consider dying for this war a WASTE of talent). I also do believe some sort of obligatory service be required sometime before college or maybe after.
At the time (2 weeks ago), I felt bitter (like I had failed or something) but after awhile I just came to terms with the fact that I couldn't do anything about it. So yes, I do feel I missed out on paying my dues for my country and my generation (even if I consider dying for this war a WASTE of talent). I also do believe some sort of obligatory service be required sometime before college or maybe after.
JuanCarlos
New member
Bah. You showed up. That's what counts.
And there's also nothing wrong with protesting it while others are off fighting it. Heck, many of those fighting it don't agree with it either. I certainly respect that a lot more than the armchair generals I run into on campus who "support" the war wholeheartedly but aren't willing to even consider doing so in person.
RedneckFur
New member
Just because we had it, doesnt make it right. We interred Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during WW2 as well, and we called ourself a free country. The Civil War violated the constitution, and the Union called itself a free country. Nobody here is denying the fact that the draft has been used to the benifit of the county in wartime. But just because it acomplished good things doesnt make forced servitude right.
I think the public has a say in what our goverment does, even during wartime. After all, who pays the taxes that pays the bills for the goverment and military? We do. If you ask me, paying income taxes is more than enough service to our goverment.
Who's happy? Are YOU happy? I'm certainly not happy about it. :barf: