Might have bumped the shoulder too far?
- Thread starter The Outlaw
- Start date
The Outlaw
Inactive
How are you quoting? I can't find the option.
condor bravo
New member
Outlaw, re post 38:
As you are beginning to discover, Guffey always has a wealth of information to offer, but often difficult to read between the lines for the true meaning of the replies.
As you are beginning to discover, Guffey always has a wealth of information to offer, but often difficult to read between the lines for the true meaning of the replies.
Quoting...
Cut and Paste the text you want into the response box.
Then highlight that text and click on the "Quote" icon (just to the left of the "#" icon).
That will cause the text to be enclosed in a Quote Box when saved.
If you want to attribute the quote to a specific person, Add '=XXX' after clicking the Quote icon:
Cut and Paste the text you want into the response box.
Then highlight that text and click on the "Quote" icon (just to the left of the "#" icon).
That will cause the text to be enclosed in a Quote Box when saved.
If you want to attribute the quote to a specific person, Add '=XXX' after clicking the Quote icon:
SniggleFritz said:
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Forgive me for the confusion, there was a lot of assuming going on, if the case whips the press a reloader should be able to verify and there is always measure before and again after if it is measure before and again after firing or after firing and again after sizing.
For years I have been told the Wilson case gage is a drop-in gage by manufacturers that want to sell me something. There are not many gages that are more accurate and easier to use, the good part? No moving parts. All that is required is a straight edge and feeler gage. It is possible to stand the case on a flat surface with the gage setting on top. The protruding case when supporting the gage will create a gap between the flat surface and bottom of the gage. The gap represents the difference in length between the fired case and a head space gage. Meaning in the perfect world the case will not protrude because the chamber is go=gage length.
Long before a reloader understand how the Wilson case gage was designed to be used they get lost in SAAMI specs, and trying to figure where head space is located. Some have even called SAAMI. I Hope they told them what I said and why.
I make gages, I do not hesitate to cut a barrel off and use the chamber as a gage. I do not hesitate to ream a barrel and use it as a chamber gage. Same for new and take off barrels. I have purchased used/worn barrels for the purpose of turning them into chamber gages. I have paid $5.00 for barrels that others would use for tomato vine supports.
F. Guffey
For years I have been told the Wilson case gage is a drop-in gage by manufacturers that want to sell me something. There are not many gages that are more accurate and easier to use, the good part? No moving parts. All that is required is a straight edge and feeler gage. It is possible to stand the case on a flat surface with the gage setting on top. The protruding case when supporting the gage will create a gap between the flat surface and bottom of the gage. The gap represents the difference in length between the fired case and a head space gage. Meaning in the perfect world the case will not protrude because the chamber is go=gage length.
Long before a reloader understand how the Wilson case gage was designed to be used they get lost in SAAMI specs, and trying to figure where head space is located. Some have even called SAAMI. I Hope they told them what I said and why.
I make gages, I do not hesitate to cut a barrel off and use the chamber as a gage. I do not hesitate to ream a barrel and use it as a chamber gage. Same for new and take off barrels. I have purchased used/worn barrels for the purpose of turning them into chamber gages. I have paid $5.00 for barrels that others would use for tomato vine supports.
F. Guffey
The "quote" icon is in the top box on the second line , forth icon from the right . Click on it then insert your quote in between the two quotes .
I do recommend the bullet comparator . I use it for loading everything EXCEPT my AR loads . It does not help when loading for the AR . Well the long bullets any way , they are loaded to mag length . If you measure the lengths of your bullets ( projectiles only ) you will find they often are not very consistent . Lately I've found Sierra 69gr & 77gr match kings to be way off . By as much at .010 from base to tip . How ever they are very consistent from base to o-give .
If you were unlucky enough to measure your COAL with the bullet comparator and the bullets you used were the shorter ones of the batch . Many of your loaded rounds will not load in your mag and if they do they will hang up inside the mag during feeding because many of the bullets will have been longer in length then your test bullets . Ask me how I know this
. I often have to actually set my seating die to seat my bullets to 2.255 just to be sure they all will feed from the mag . When I do this some will be 2.253 while others are 2.260 . All will have a very consistent measurement from head to o-give though .
P.S. I did get to rambling up there . I had to go back and fix a few things . Nothing major , spelling and re-configured a sentence or two to be more clear .
I do recommend the bullet comparator . I use it for loading everything EXCEPT my AR loads . It does not help when loading for the AR . Well the long bullets any way , they are loaded to mag length . If you measure the lengths of your bullets ( projectiles only ) you will find they often are not very consistent . Lately I've found Sierra 69gr & 77gr match kings to be way off . By as much at .010 from base to tip . How ever they are very consistent from base to o-give .
If you were unlucky enough to measure your COAL with the bullet comparator and the bullets you used were the shorter ones of the batch . Many of your loaded rounds will not load in your mag and if they do they will hang up inside the mag during feeding because many of the bullets will have been longer in length then your test bullets . Ask me how I know this
. I often have to actually set my seating die to seat my bullets to 2.255 just to be sure they all will feed from the mag . When I do this some will be 2.253 while others are 2.260 . All will have a very consistent measurement from head to o-give though .P.S. I did get to rambling up there . I had to go back and fix a few things . Nothing major , spelling and re-configured a sentence or two to be more clear .
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When you enclose text using the QUOTE icon, it appears like this in the response box before you hit "submit" (or save)
[*QUOTE]...text...[/QUOTE*] (note that I added an extraneous ' * ' to keep the hypertext gods at bay
)
If you then add [*QUOTE=SniggleFritz] to the first QUOTE box, it will insert "SniggleFritz" as the author
[*QUOTE]...text...[/QUOTE*] (note that I added an extraneous ' * ' to keep the hypertext gods at bay
)If you then add [*QUOTE=SniggleFritz] to the first QUOTE box, it will insert "SniggleFritz" as the author
Getting back to the subject, The Outlaw is not using the best brass 5.56 in a 223 chamber, yes you can size it to work, good practice, brass is probably thicker. Poor choice of brass, reloading for the first new setup. Outlaw don't beat yourself up. Remove your primers before measuring your cases, F/L size your brass, don't oversize, start with your die backed out , size , look at the sized neck, screw the die down alittle at a time until it sizes to the bottom of the neck without bumping the shoulder. See how it works from there
The Outlaw
Inactive
The Outlaw said:
Fired same 10 855 rounds measured above and 7 of them measured 1.456 while 3 measured 1.455little5.
That would mean I should never size longer than 1.453?
The Outlaw, l feel you could keep your reloads at 1.455 not less and you will be fine. try 20 rounds see if to your brass gets longer. Just remember when measureing brass remove the primer . a bumped out primer can screw up your numbers. Think of why people neck size, when the case gets to long they bump the shoulder back. I never liked the idea of neck sizing for accuracy due to case bodies are different lengths. Keeping your F/L sizing to 1.455 let's see where your brass winds up. What powder , load in grains & bullet and weight are you using with AOL for magazine.
It would appear your sized cases are on the minimum side and your fired cases are below minimum length; meaning your fired cases are shortern than your sized cases if we are talking about the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
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OUTLAW,
- Your fired cases are expanding to the sides of the chamber (good).
- As a result, they are getting "fatter" (normal).
- Because chamber headspace is good and the case doesn't stretch out lengthwise,
..it actually gets slightly shorter as the sides bulge out to the chamber (solid geometry)
Don't sweat it.
As you then resize, the sides are squeezed in, the case gets longer again, and the
die re-sets the shoulder to the baseline (you established earlier from feeling for bolt closure).
Yer doin' fine.
- Your fired cases are expanding to the sides of the chamber (good).
- As a result, they are getting "fatter" (normal).
- Because chamber headspace is good and the case doesn't stretch out lengthwise,
..it actually gets slightly shorter as the sides bulge out to the chamber (solid geometry)
Don't sweat it.
As you then resize, the sides are squeezed in, the case gets longer again, and the
die re-sets the shoulder to the baseline (you established earlier from feeling for bolt closure).
Yer doin' fine.
The Outlaw
Inactive
I'm just getting more confused.
I took surplus m855 that averaged 1.450 head to datum. And shot it in this rifle and it stretched to a 1.456 average meaning they grew about 0.006. These were not reloads
The LC brass I sized were 1.459 on average which is 0.009 longer than the unfired surplus so if your saying I sized to the minimum then that m855 would hame been way shorter than minimum specs. If what i just read elsewhere is true 1.463 - 1.473 is the min/ max either the hornady guage is WAY off or the m855 ammo was also way under minimum
I took surplus m855 that averaged 1.450 head to datum. And shot it in this rifle and it stretched to a 1.456 average meaning they grew about 0.006. These were not reloads
The LC brass I sized were 1.459 on average which is 0.009 longer than the unfired surplus so if your saying I sized to the minimum then that m855 would hame been way shorter than minimum specs. If what i just read elsewhere is true 1.463 - 1.473 is the min/ max either the hornady guage is WAY off or the m855 ammo was also way under minimum
The Outlaw
Inactive
One place says 1.463 - 1.473 another says
1.4666" with a tolerance of minus .007"
That's a pretty big difference
.I don't know if it's an information overload or lack of sleep but the more I try to wrap my head around it the more retarded I start to feel lol.
1.4666" with a tolerance of minus .007"
That's a pretty big difference
.I don't know if it's an information overload or lack of sleep but the more I try to wrap my head around it the more retarded I start to feel lol.
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SAMMI spec on the case (see drawing) is 1.4666-0.0070"
http://labscdn2.luckygunner.com/labs/media/2012/06/223-Remington-cartridge-and-chamber-791x1024.jpg
That's (effectively) 1.460" to1.467" (a 7 thousandths band) for the case.
NOTE the civilian GO Gauge for the chamber is 1.464" (i.e., 4 thou bigger than the shortest case);
and the chamber NO-GO is 1.467" (right at max SAAMI case length)
http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/headspace.pdf
......BREAK, BREAK.....
Remember that you are running a Hornady comparator --not an exact Headspace gauge.
All you care about is that the sized case comparator dimension for loading is just ever-so-slightly smaller than the just-barely-fits case.
http://labscdn2.luckygunner.com/labs/media/2012/06/223-Remington-cartridge-and-chamber-791x1024.jpg
That's (effectively) 1.460" to1.467" (a 7 thousandths band) for the case.
NOTE the civilian GO Gauge for the chamber is 1.464" (i.e., 4 thou bigger than the shortest case);
and the chamber NO-GO is 1.467" (right at max SAAMI case length)
http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/headspace.pdf
......BREAK, BREAK.....
Remember that you are running a Hornady comparator --not an exact Headspace gauge.
All you care about is that the sized case comparator dimension for loading is just ever-so-slightly smaller than the just-barely-fits case.
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