Might have bumped the shoulder too far?

Mr. Guffey is correct...
It`s a good thing he ended up with the bad die...most reloaders would not have found the issue of the die being ground off.

grinding off the die to get a case to chamber in a tight gun has been a remedy for as long as dies have been made...I just don't understand why some people prefer to grind the die...removing the same amount of material from a dedicated shell holder will do the same thing.
 
Did the OP [OUTLAW] say somewhere that he had modified/ground-off dies ?
I must have missed that.

postscript:
SAAMI does not have ‘that minimum dimension’, SAAMI has +/- dimensions
Click to expand...
Hmmmmm..... I could have sworn the SAAMI drawing says the Headspace Spec is 1.634 (-0.007)"
(i.e., min headspace is 1.627") which is also produced when combined w/a standard shellholder against a standard sizing die.
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/308 Winchester.pdf


.
 
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No, he did not... the point is, he believed he ruined 2000 rounds of good brass.

each rifle is chambered by a human being...or a machine that is controlled by a human being... maybe the operator had a hangover; or was just having a bad day...chamber reamers wear down after time ...sometimes they are not replaced or reground until they cut chambers that are too short...

maybe the operator`s mic needs recalibrated...whatever the reason, new guns with short chambers still make it out of the factory and into the hands of shooters...

It happens!!!the same thing can happen to dies... of the thousands and thousands of dies produced each year, some are going to leave the factory that are not perfect. if 99% are perfect, there are still quite a few that are not.
 
But at this point we have absolutely no reason to believe that either the die or the shellholder was out of spec...
And if that's the case (no pun intended), the sized cases would not be out of spec.

No ?
 
The Redding competition shell holders set of 5 , makes setting .001 headspace with the standard RCBS F/L sizing just perfect for for me. Runout is also .001 & better. Seems pretty simple.
 
Wow I went to work and missed a ton of replies and for some reason the ability to quote disappeared and images now just show as links. The only good news is I picked up a hornady headspace tool that attaches to my calipers. I still need to go measure.

To try to answer some of the questions...
Rifle is a ar15 with 18" fluted heavy barrel. 223 Wylde chamber that I put together a year or so ago and barely even shot before putting it away to focus on 1911 builds

All reloading gear was bought new and remains unmolested
Dies are lee

I'll go see what the new toy has to say about length and be back with measurements. Of the brass in question and some loaded m855 as a baseline. I will see if I have any of the fired brass too but I doubt it
 
Sized brass in question
1.461
1.459
1.460
1.459
1.459
1.458
1.458
1.459
1.458
1.460


M855
1.451
1.450
1.450
1.451
1.449
1.450
1.449
1.449
1.450
1.449


Fired from this rifle
1.454
1.454
1.455
1.455
1.455
1.454
1.455
1.454
1.455
1.454
All of the 1.454 had a small 5 at the end like 1.4545 but the five at the end is smaller than the other numbers

So if I'm understanding this correctly, I have a short chamber and not even close to enough headspace with the sized brass? I would still need to bring the shoulder back at least 0.002 correct?

If I'm understanding all of that correctly then I'm guessing that the reason it felt different was because it's probably Saw brass. I'm slacking I should have known that because of the huge amount that I threw away while sorting and the dinged up case heads
 
I`m not sure what Saw brass is, but it appears your resized brass is still too long...You may have to run a second pass or re-adjust the die to get the case into the die further.
 
The Outlaw, When the round is fired it will blow out to the chamber walls & spring back .001 that's also wider. When you resize your fired case, it could become longer. Headspace specs for a 223 are 1.467 you have a reference point 1.465 is where I think you should be. I wouldn't bump your shoulder back at this point. Try setting your die to the shell holder back it up one complete turn, size and measure , chambering it in your rifle. My chamber on my 308 is 1.630 my fired brass mic's at 1.628 on some brass, I resize this ADI brass to 1.629 it just didn't get longer. Rem & Win. Brass I can bump the shoulder. Start sizing longer & size down to 1.465 if possible. Remember to trim your brass. We don't no yet if you have a tight chamber, did you try to chamber your fired brass, when trying this make sure your chamber is clean and brass is wiped clean. I just read in your post Saw brass are you sure is it 5.56
 
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SAW-Squad Automatic Weapon.-M249-5.56. Known for big chambers.


The current military specifications for the M16 series call for headspace of not less than 1.4646” and not more than 1.4706. This is rifle chamber spec's.
 
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All of the 1.454 had a small 5 at the end like 1.4545 but the five at the end is smaller than the other numbers
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but that made me laugh out loud :) . It reminded me of a time I asked one of my employees a specific measurement . He said 12 and 3 little lines past a half . lol I knew what he meant and I know what the OP means but it still made me laugh .

First I think it's important you know that the gage you just bought is a great tool to use when reloading . The second thing and most important IMO is that you understand the gage in a comparator . I'm 99% sure if you were to check the size of a GO or NO-GO gage using the Hornady head space gage it will not measure the gage correctly . The reason is it is designed to compare ( comparator ) two items . It is not designed to give you the actual measurement of a single item . I have the same gage and use it all the time . How ever it shows all my Forester head space gages about .010 shorter then they really are .

The other thing you should know IMO is that the inserts are made of a soft aluminum . The radius on the edge that makes contact with the cases shoulder will round off a little over time . My measurements got smaller by about .003 over a span of measuring round 700 to 1000 cases . They do settle in and appear to stop rounding off .

The next thing I think you should consider is how the BCG flying home ( Closing from a locked back position ) can effect shoulder set back . I recommend any testing you do chambering dummy rounds or sized cases to see if they will chamber . You ride the BCG home by hold the charging handle and slowly letting the bolt close . It likely will not close all the way doing this . You then lightly tap your FA ( forward assist ) to get the case to fully chamber . Now this is only when testing if a cases will chamber . I recommend this because I've done some test that showed the BCG flying home does set the shoulder back .

My tests showed the shoulder will set back .001 to .002 each time the same case is chambered . It will continue to set back for a total on .005 to .006 . At that point the shoulders no longer were moved . This is because the force in which the BCG pushes the case into the chamber causes the case shoulder to slam into the chambers shoulder hard enough to push the shoulder back a tad . There are two things I should add or make note of . Only cases that had minimal sizing had this set back . Meaning I sized my cases to be set back .003 from my fire formed cases . If I sized the cases to minimum length ,which would be .008 shorter then my target length . There was no shoulder set back when letting the BCG fly home .

Why did I just say all that . I felt it was important to understand that just because you AR will chamber a round when you let the BCG fly home . Does not always mean the case is sized short enough . I have been able to get cases to chamber that would not other wise chamber by riding the BCG home and tapping the FA . If the BCG was back and I just released it from the bolt catch . The cases that were a bit long by .001 or so would chamber . Meaning the BCG slammed the shoulder of the case so hard against the chambers shoulder it set the shoulder back enough to chamber the other wise to long a case .

OK , I agree that your sized cases appear to be longer then your fire formed cases . Were the fire formed cases fired in your gun ?

I believe you said these are LC cases ?? If so they are likely fully expanded . I have found , at least in the 4 rifles I've tested that LC - NATO spec ammo creates good enough pressure to consistently expand the cases . I have not found that to be the case when shooting 223 ammo from the same AR's . I get very consistent CASE HEAD SPACE measurements from factory NATO ammo . I how ever do not get very consistent measurement when measuring 223 ammo fired from the same semi automatic firearms . This is another thing to keep in mind when measuring your fire formed cases .

Well I feel like I kinda just started rambling on and could not stop . It's late and I'm a bit tired . I sure hope all that made as much sense on paper as it did in my head .

If not , sorry I'll try to clarify if needed .

Metal
 
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Cw308
Yes I always trim before reloading for ar's just for consistency even if they are under max, but I don't trim to minimum.

These resized cases weren't trimmed though before measuring head to datum because I didn't think that would effect the readings in my panicked state but I'll trim some and remeasure later.
And yes lake city 5.56 brass are usually by processed Lots and I think they cull off most of the Saw brass in those but I bought unprocessed this time and it seems to be mostly Saw brass. It's all been blown up like a ballon with huge dents and bent/tweaked heads. I culled offer 25% and am still unhappy with the rest. Really regretting selling my last stockpile of LC brass with the ar I sold
 
Metal God
Yes they were fired in this rifle and yes LC

Feel free to ramble lol the more info the better. I've been reloading for a few years in 5.56 .308 10mm but I was happy with just being in spec and taking extra care with col and charge weight. That worked really well for me in the past but I want to improve since my goals have changed. I was only shooting groups at 100 but am now wanting to start shooting allot further with my .308, so I need to step up a bit.

Since your familiar with the hornady headspace setup any chance your familiar with their other stuff like the bullet comparator, semi and bolt oal Gage's or neck turner? I'm considering picking those up, they seem more useful and a better value over the RCBS mics
 
Did the OP [OUTLAW] say somewhere that he had modified/ground-off dies?

No I doubt you missed anything unless it was that part about a reloader assuming the case has been sized when the ram is raised. Then there is that part about assuming the die and shell holder has the ability to return the case to minimum length. I can determine if a case has been sized before lowering the ram by simply measuring the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder with a feeler gage.

It is possible to remove the die from the press without lowering the ram if the reloader knows how to remove the shell holder without lowering the ram. I know ‘why would anyone need to know that? Simple answer; when a case gets stuck in the die lowering the ram is difficult. It is easier to remove the shell holder then remove the die before removing the case.

When removing the die with the case a reloader can measure case head protrusion. Case head protrusion from a die after returning the case to minimum length should be .125” if the deck height of the shell holder is .125”.

Then there is checking a full length sizing die and shell holder with a go-gage. Drop go gages into the die without the primer punch/sizer plug assemble installed then place the shell holder over the head of the go-gage. The go-gage should be longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. In the perfect world when working with the 30/06 there should be a .005” gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder, I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, to measure the gap.

Many go, no and field reject gages were not designed to be used with a shell holder, not a problem, if the gage will not fit the shell holder use a bigger shell holder. Just make sure the deck height is .125”.

Then there are all of those tolerances, the chamber can be this XXX long or it can be XXX shorter and same for the case. Again, I want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face in thousandths.

F. Guffey
 
Wow I went to work and missed a ton of replies and for some reason the ability to quote disappeared and images now just show as links. The only good news is I picked up a hornady headspace tool that attaches to my calipers. I still need to go measure.
Click to expand...


The good news? Do not expect the Hornady comparator to give you measurements that will match absolute measurements without tolerance. Inserts that can be used with your calipers have case friendly edges. The edges have a radius meaning the datum? Is not where reloaders believe it is. I make datums, my datums are not case friendly, they are absolute.

The only manufacturer that makes accurate datums with a radius is L.E. Wilson.

The Hornady tool is a comparator, I know, reloaders call it a head space gage.

F. Guffey
 
I will have to assume you never fired this rifle before. Had you fired the rifle before you would know the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head that would fit the chamber/allow the bolt to close, had you saved a few rounds of unfired ammo you would be ahead.

Had you measured the length of the cases before firing from the shoulder to the case head and then had you measured the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head after firing you would know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the case head and you would know the clearance. UNLESS! You were using the Hornady case comparator. GOOD NEWS; with the Hornady comparator you would know the clearance between the case head and bolt face unless your clearance is located between the shoulder of the chamber and shoulder of the case.

F. Guffey
 
F. Guffey

I'm a little lost here it seems on one hand your trying to help me but it seems on the other hand your calling me a liar.

As I posted with the measurements the rifle has been fired and I listed the measurements of 10 cases fired from said rifle. I also have some m855 I can measure before and after shooting.

And there are multiple reasons I don't have the exact measurement of the chamber for you
1. Like I posted the rifle was a build that I only shot enough to verify function then put away to concentrate on 1911 builds.

2 I also inquired a few posts ago about tools to measure hs, oal, and comprehensive bullets stating that I want to make my reloading more precise. Before if they fit the Lyman case guage and had consistent col and charge weights I was happy. I lost the Lyman gage a while back and never replaced it because I was loading more pistol than rifle at that time

As for the wilson gage I will be getting one for each call I reload but from what I understand and intend to use them for, they are just a quick way to verify a case is within published safe specs.

The reason I bought the hornady gage is because it was the only thing available local right now and I was in a panic and wanted to see if I trashed all my brass or not. The hornady may not be perfect but would it not do a better job of helping me tailor rounds to my rifles in the long run since it gives some sort of measurement rather than yes it's in spec or no its not like the wilson or my old Lyman gage? Like I said I'll be getting a wilson for everything I reload but I intended to use it more as a quick check than a precision measuring tool. That would be fine for this ar but for my bolt rifles I want to be able to load what's most accurate in that chamber rather than just knowing the round will fit.

I'm probably missing something so feEl free to set me straight. I want to learn how to do better.

I'll try to get to the range today to measure the m855 brass before and after but I don't know for sure if I'll have time. I drive for a living so 95% of my time is away from home in another state and I come home to a honey do list a mile long
 
:D
OP said:
I'm a little lost here
Click to expand...
You've a lot of company, Outllaw. Don't sweat it. ;)

That said:

1. Also, don't sweat having possibly "oversized" your cases at this point. The design of the standard Sizing die/shellholder make that for all intents & purposes impossible given a standard chamber.

2. Don't sweat the Hornady gauge being a "comparator" rather than a gold-standard headspace gauge. It's purty close as it is, and its real job is to give you a sizing standard to test against when reloading for a specific rifle's chamber.

3. Don't sweat the fired cases being strangely dimensioned as "compared" to what they were when you loaded them. Gas guns do funny things during extraction.

--- with good case lube ----

4. DO (gradually) partially size some cases until the sides are squeezed in enough to lengthen the case to where the bolt won't close w/o assistance, (Headspace is now "too long"

5. DO graaaaadually screw the sizing die down until the case will juuuust fit/bolt close w/o assistance. THEN measure the case hedspace w/ your Hornady Comparator and write that number down. It is your baseline for that rifle.

6. From now on, DO use that Comparator baseline to size cases ~0.002" shorter than that during each loading session. That will extend case life.




Personally, though... I'd just full size everything going into a "common-cartridge" gas gun and call it a day. Brass is cheap.
 
Do I need to get the before and after ov each specific case in order or will measuring 10 before I leave then bringing the empties home to measure to come up with an average work?
 
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