Michael Brown not looking so bad now

Actually, what I was considering was the fact that G-dub STAYED in the classroom after being informed of a disaster. Basically he just shrugged it off and continued his PR tour.

National security demanded that he immediately end his visit and get a FULL update on the situation. His delay caused the deaths of a lot of people in the Pentagon because he did not react fast enough to scramble ARMED military aircraft into the air after the first plane hit the WTC. Had he done his duty he'd have been in control of, and monitoring the situation as it developed. Instead he had to play self-induced catch up while reading to the school kids who really couldn't have cared less about his visit.

In essence he APPEARED to not care about his oath, obligations, or the citizens of this country.

In times of need, some people react and some just stand there with their mouths open. Bush failed his first test because he didn't even bother to show up.
 
In times of need, some people react and some just stand there with their mouths open.

YOU mean like Clinton, and the SEVERAL terrorists attacks on his watch. Except in his case it was his fly that was open.

Give the 7 minutes think a rest. Even Kerry stated that in the senate they all sat there for over 30 min before getting up to do anything.
 
YOU mean like Clinton, and the SEVERAL terrorists attacks on his watch. Except in his case it was his fly that was open

Since when was Clinton president when the WTC and the pentagon were attacked on 911?

IIRC, it was GWB who was president and thus it is GWB who is the one we need to focus on. Bringing Clinton into the discussion is an attempt at misdirection and sleight of hand.

I have NEVER endorsed the BS that Clinton did while in office. Since I have not held Clinton out to be "better" than GWB, comparing the 2 is wholly your idea. One can surmise that your comparison is meant to try to make pond scum appear better because at least it's not the sludge on the bottom.

Back on topic: Brown appears to have done his job in relaying the needed information to those who were in charge. The fact that they sat on their thumbs afterwards is now a public FACT whether you like it or not. The videos prove it.
 
"Actually, what I was considering was the fact that G-dub STAYED in the classroom after being informed of a disaster. Basically he just shrugged it off and continued his PR tour."

"National security demanded that he immediately end his visit and get a FULL update on the situation. His delay caused the deaths of a lot of people in the Pentagon because he did not react fast enough to scramble ARMED military aircraft into the air after the first plane hit the WTC."

Damn, you REALLY don't have a clue, do you, Rob?

Do you think that the scrambling of fighers depended on the President's personal authorization?

Here's your first clue.

NO, it did NOT depend on the President's authorization, and NEVER has.

It has been protocol in this country since the 1970s, when hijackings first became the "in crime," to scramble interceptors at the FIRST indication that an active hijacking is ongoing.

Case in point.

On September 11, 2001, the first inkling that there was a hijacking in progress came in around 8:30 a.m.

By 8:34 a.m. flight controllers in Boston attempted to contact the Otis Air National Guard Base in Cape Cod, where two fighters are on 24x7 standby.

At roughly the same time, Bush's motorcade was heading for the elementary school.

Beginning around 8:37 a.m. NORAD beings to react to the hijacking reports.

By 8:46 a.m. fighters are authorized to scramble and are in the air minutes later.

At the time that the second plane hit the WTC, I believe that there were 4, and possibly 6, interceptors in the air, but I'm not sure about that.

So, after the second plane hits the WTC, and it's now apparent that it's not an accident, but an attack, let's take a quick peek at what a NATIONAL SECURITY briefing might have been like.

NSA Aide: MR PRESIDENT! TWO PLANES HAVE HIT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER!"

President: I need a full security briefing on this incident now!

NSA Aide: "Uh, sir? I just gave it to you."

President: "Oh, that's right, I'm the one with the Satanically derived powers of prognostication. Looks like we've got at least two more hijacked aircraft in the air. Let's hold the fighters back from them. One's going to hit the Pentagon, the other is going to pancake into a field in Pennsylvania. We want to make this look good for the world so we can claim the moral high ground.

Hold on boys, I have to take a subliminal message...

Yes, my dark master?"

Satan: "George, you're reacting too quickly to all of this. You've got to hold back. That way our evil plan of toppling Saddam Hussein will come to fruition."

President: "Thy evil will be done, my master..."

So, you're whining about why the President didn't immediately jump up and tell the kids to shove their Billy Goat books up their butts, that America was under attack and that they should put their "duck and cover" drills into action?

I'm still not seeing the direct connection here, Rob.

Your initial claim -- Bush fiddled, and that fiddling caused thousands of Americans to die.

The actual facts -- The military infrastructure, as per long-standing practice, was already attemting to deal with the hijackings by the time word reached the President.

Your subsequent claim -- Bush wasn't in control because he wasn't monitoring the situation.

The actual facts -- The situation was incredibly fluid, literally changing by the second, as more information came in on what was developing. Bush was at a public elementary school. Where would he have effectively monitored the rapidly changing situation over the next quarter hour? Just what could he have personally done over the next quarter of an hour that would have made an actual difference? Answer, not much. At the point that it became clear that it was an attack on the United States, it became NORAD's responsibility to deal with. It wasn't Bush's responsibility to jump into an interceptor and shoot down the other two hijacked airliners. It wasn't his responsibility to run to New York and save people in the towers.

What WAS his responsibility, then?

To present a calm, reassuring face to the nation. To avoid making any outlandish claims that would subsequently be countermanded by actual events. To let the military deal try to deal with the evolving situation as it had practiced to do for 30 years.

Since when has it been the President's responsibility to jump onto national TV seconds after an incident and start blathering on about it?

Tell me, how do you feel about this situation in that light (realizing that there wasn't TV back then, but there was radio).

On December 7, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

President Roosevelt didn't address the nation until nearly 24 hours AFTER the attacks.

And he didn't address the nation at all, he addressed a joint session of Congress.

Why didn't he jump into his rocket powered wheel chair and sink that pesky Jap fleet?

Why wasn't he on the radio seconds after the first bomb dropped giving a blow by blowup account of ships sinking, bodies flying, planes burning?

As I recall, Bush's first address to the nation came while he was still at the elementary school, in an announcement he made to the students and in front of the television cameras that were covering his visit there, at about 9:30 a.m.

Let's see....

25 minutes in which to initially learn about the attack, compose his thoughts on what he's going to say to the assembled students AND press about what no one ever expects to happen in this nation, and speak to Cheney, the director of the FAA, and senior military leadership.

You're whining that 25 minutes is too slow?

See the above about Roosevelt.

I have to say, Rob, that there's one thing worse than APPEARING to fall down on the job.

And that's DEFINITELY falling down and not having a clue about what you're screeding about.

Congratuations. You win the prize.
 
"Since when was Clinton president when the WTC and the pentagon were attacked on 911?"

:rolleyes:

February 26, 1993.

Muslim terrorists detonate a bomb in the parking garage at the World Trade Center.

6 people are killed, 1000 are injured.

IIRC, Clinton didn't make any public comment on this incident until hours later.
 
Damn, you REALLY don't have a clue, do you, Rob?
I have to say, Rob, that there's one thing worse than APPEARING to fall down on the job.

And that's DEFINITELY falling down and not having a clue about what you're screeding about.

Congratuations. You win the prize.

TWICE in one post? I must be setting a record if I can cause you to insult me twice in one post.

I like your sarcasm. Especially since it's totally STUPID and off the topic and not even a realistic scenario even in your fantasy world. Reminds me of the Beevis and Butthead stuff.

Presenting a reassuring face to the world is not sitting in a classroom of gradeshoolers reading a story book while the country is suffering an attack. At the first word of the attack GWB did not know if it was a terrorist bombing or a first strike from another Nation. So, instead of doing anything he sat in a school in Fla and did nothing on camera.

BTW, this thread isn't about GWB it's about Brown. Not that it matters much since GWB figures so prominently in your thoughts one wonders if you subliminally know he's an ass and just won't give in to your own realizations. So you defend him by fantasy and fabrication.

"Since when was Clinton president when the WTC and the pentagon were attacked on 911?"

February 26, 1993.

Mike, you really need to get glasses. Didn't I state specifically "911"? If that's the case, then the 1993 bombing isn't the issue now is it..... Some people will do anything to prove their non existent point I guess. A little less vehemence and a whole lot more reflection will do wonders for your ulcer too.
 
I didn't insult you, Rob.

You've insulted yourself by proving that you don't have any clue as to the events or activities on 9/11, the supposed activities/inactivities for which you're pillorying the President.

Remember, YOU'RE the one who claimed that the President's inaction on that day was directly responsible for the loss of thousands of lives.

Telling you you don't have a clue, when that is painfully evident for anyone to see that you don't have a clue as to the factual scenario, isn't insulting you. It's pointing out the obvious.

"At the first word of the attack GWB did not know if it was a terrorist bombing or a first strike from another Nation."

And once again, I'll point you to the FACT that in either event it is up to the military and/or civil authorities to initiate the primary situational response, NOT the President.

On December 7, 1941, it was up to the military to initiate the response to the Japanese attack, not the President.

Despite your attempts to claim otherwise, you've failed to give any logical, cogent explanation of just what the President was supposed to do that would have made a difference on September 11.

You're quick to claim that the Presidents actions/inactions cost thousands of lives.

Prove it.

"BTW, this thread isn't about GWB it's about Brown."

Then please explain why YOU were so quick to jump into the thread with a screed about Bush and September 11?

Did September 11 have anything to do with Hurricane Katrina?

Did September 11 have anything to do with Michael Brown?

Maybe it was an Islamic Fundamentalist Hurricane, one of those dreaded IFHs we've heard so much about in the news lately?


"So you defend him by fantasy and fabrication."

Ah. Fantasy and fabrication. Amazing.

What I've provided, ALONG with the factual timeline that completely refutes your scenario, is sarcasm.

You're the one who has provided fantasy and fabrication. Remember, that claim that Bush cost thousands of lives?

Here's another quick reference point for you.

You're ASSUMING (you do a lot of that) that I like Bush. I once did, but now I think he's an amazing chump who has wasted huge opportunities. He's gotten us embroiled in a war in Iraq with no clear plan for either winning the war or the peace, and no clear plan for exiting. He's wasted amazing political capital, he's focused his administration on absolutely inane projects, and in doing so he's very likely bringing about the resurgence of the Democratic party and all of its assorted idiocies and evils.

I felt the same way about Bill Clinton.

But here's another simple fact. If September 11 had happened on Clinton's watch, and you were making the same claims, I'd be posting the exact same thing.

Know why?

Because I dislike allegations such as yours even less than I like either Bush or Clinton.

But what I really like?

People using actual FACTS (not your particular fabrications) to state their case as to why someone is responsible for a situation.

Case in point...

You claim this thread is about Michael Brown and Hurricane Katrina (even though YOU'RE the one who raise the September 11 issue in the first place).

Facts now in evidence make it very clear that the Hurricane Katrina response was mishandled at the very highest levels of government (yep, right up to Bush), and that statements made by Bush during and after the Hurricane's landfall are demonstratably false.

Facts in evidence are wonderful things.

You might want to try using them sometime.
 
Oh, and the references to the 1993 bombing of the WTC?

It would be logical that you should blame Clinton for doing nothing in the aftermath of the 1993 bombing since you hold Bush responsible for doing nothing in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks.

Yet that connection eludes you...
 
Mike, I did not believe YOU were the one insulting me "twice in one post". Strong dissent is nice except when it gets in the way of logical thinking. Slow down and read first, think second, post third. Please.

Oh, and the references to the 1993 bombing of the WTC?

It would be logical that you should blame Clinton for doing nothing in the aftermath of the 1993 bombing since you hold Bush responsible for doing nothing in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks.

Yet that connection eludes you...

It doesn't "elude" me I didn't include reference to it because that event wasn't the issue being discussed. Again, discussing the WTC bombing in '93 is just misdirection. It's misdirection because it's an attempt to compare Clinton with Bush which isn't the point.

Get this - Clinton wasn't in office on 9/11. THEREFORE CLINTON COULDN'T HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY ACTION DONE OR NOT DONE. He also wasn't in the chain of command when Katrina struck. Any comparison that alludes to Bush being "better" by bringing up old news is a fallacy.

As for your stmt that the President doesn't initiate defense of the nation, you are correct. However, what you don't include in that is the fact that the President is the Commander in Chief of the Military. As such HE is the one who must stay on top of the situation at all times in order to authorize orders to the military that are recommended to him by his commanders. He can't DO THAT if he's sitting in a Fla classroom reading about Billy Goat Gruff.

Despite your attempts to claim otherwise, you've failed to give any logical, cogent explanation of just what the President was supposed to do that would have made a difference on September 11

Really? Read the preceeding paragraph. Now read this:

National security demanded that he immediately end his visit and get a FULL update on the situation. His delay caused the deaths of a lot of people in the Pentagon because he did not react fast enough to scramble ARMED military aircraft into the air after the first plane hit the WTC.

I posted that prior. Seems I met your std of stating what he "should have done" but you missed it. The record of the events that played out showed that the Military has no aircraft in the vicinity except one UNARMED reconnisance plane yet there were several military airfields with armed aircraft within striking distance of the Pentagon aircraft prior to the crash. This was 20 minutes or so after the WTC crash. Yet GWB sat in the classroom and did nothing.

Yeah, the military is the one who scrambles the aircraft. What you don't realize is that they CAN'T do that without a direct order. So they have unarmed reconnisance aircraft in the air. Once the unarmed plane had information, Bush should have been in a positon to be instantly updated and should have been able to order the launch of armed fighters. The fact that he was STILL sitting in a classroom at that point shows that he dropped the ball and is indirectly responsible for the loss of life at the pentagon crash.

You claim this thread is about Michael Brown and Hurricane Katrina (even though YOU'RE the one who raise the September 11 issue in the first place).

Actually this is correct. I DID raise the 9/11 issue back in post #3. However, I didn't raise the issue to compare it with Clinton. If you actually read the thread to that point (and then stop to think) you'll note that I raised the 9/11 issue ALONG WITH the Katrina issue to illustrate that GWB has a habit of doing nothing then denying that he knew anything. Now the video shows that GWB was informed and did nothing which is support for my position on this. The fact that Brown asserts that he did his job and the logjam was higher up the food chain is also supported by the tapes. So, while I did raise the issue, I am also trying to say that this thread is about BROWN and Katrina and not my dislike of GWB. Brown and GWB are linked in this issue but I tried to stay with the topic. The fact that my reference to 9/11 clouded the subject is my error.

Facts now in evidence make it very clear that the Hurricane Katrina response was mishandled at the very highest levels of government (yep, right up to Bush), and that statements made by Bush during and after the Hurricane's landfall are demonstratably false.

Which is what I stated already. Nice to see that you agree with me. Since we agree, how is that I am the one who cannot see or state the facts?
 
:confused: :confused:

OK, first you say I'm insulting you, as seen in this post:

"TWICE in one post? I must be setting a record if I can cause you to insult me twice in one post."

Now you're saying that I wasn't insulting you.

"Mike, I did not believe YOU were the one insulting me "twice in one post"."

Who, then, do you think was insulting you? Lamont Cranston, or his secret identity, The Shadow?

I'm not the one who needs to slow down. I know what you wrote, and I'm also apparently the only person who understands it.


In any event, you still don't get it, do you?

I've shown, repeatedly, how your accusations about Bush's actions on 9/11 simply don't hold water.

You can't point to a single, not ONE, thing that Bush did or did not do that supports your initial claim that Bush is responsible for the loss of 3,000 lives on September 11.

You continue to harp on what you THINK he should have done, based on exactly what, I can't really say.

You THINK he should have immediately adjourned from the meeting at the school.

Again, I ask, to what purpose? Yes, Bush is CIC of the military. That does not mean that he immediately assumes operational command of defensive/offensive postures.

You claim that he should have "been on top of the situation."

In fact, you can't say conclusively if he was or was not, or even if it would have made a difference.

A lot of people, not just you, like to point this out as some great failing of Bush's leadership, when in fact you can't point to a positive cause/effect relationship.

The main problem is your perception of how you think you would have acted, as compared to how you perceive the president acted, are at odds.

Once again, though, you can't point to any factual evidence of any kind to support your perception.


Using your tortured logic, answer this...

Given that the United States has been in ongoing military conflict for almost 4 years now, do you daily castigate the President for having gone to sleep the night before?

After all, according to your criteria, those hours sleeping are hours when he's not keeping up on the situation.

How about when he's dealing with other duties required of the office? He's not maintaining full situtional awareness of military operations at all times, so he must be negligent in your world, right?

Now we go back to this...

"National security demanded that he immediately end his visit and get a FULL update on the situation. His delay caused the deaths of a lot of people in the Pentagon because he did not react fast enough to scramble ARMED military aircraft into the air after the first plane hit the WTC."

As I've already explained, and which you apparently failed to read, it was not the President's duty to order armed aircraft into the air.

National air defense is automatic -- that is NORAD's duty. As I've noted in previous messages, NORAD had fighter jets moving towards takeoff within minutes of a hijacking being confirmed, very likely before word even reached the Presidents military security advisors, who would be the ones to tell him NORAD had activated the national air defense.

Now you claim this...

"The record of the events that played out showed that the Military has no aircraft in the vicinity except one UNARMED reconnisance plane yet there were several military airfields with armed aircraft within striking distance of the Pentagon aircraft prior to the crash. This was 20 minutes or so after the WTC crash. Yet GWB sat in the classroom and did nothing."

Once again, IT IS NOT THE PRESIDENT'S DUTY TO ORDER STRIKE AIRCRAFT INTO THE AIR. THAT IS NORAD'S RESPONSIBILITY.

TRY to wrap your head around this FACT set:

The Federal Aviation Adminstration is responsible for tracking commercial aircraft in flight, NOT the President.

The FAA is responsible for informing NORAD that a hijacking is in progress, NOT the President.

NORAD is responsible for scrambling interceptors into the air, NOT the President.

NORAD and the FAA together are responsible for attempting to locate, track, and vector in those interceptors, NOT the President.

You keep coming back to this moronic, childish claim that somehow George Bush is responsible for thousands of American deaths because NORAD and the FAA were unable to determine exactly which aircraft had been hijacked and exactly where those aircraft were after the hijackers turned off their transponders, stopped responding to radio calls, and veered from their planned flight paths.

The President is an elected official, deemed by the Constitution, among many other duties, to be the Commander in Chief.

What the Constitution does not say, though, is that the President is responsible for front line military defense of the homeland.

The Constitution and associated US Code provide that the military handle those responsibilites on a practical and daily basis.

"Which is what I stated already. Nice to see that you agree with me. Since we agree, how is that I am the one who cannot see or state the facts?"

OK, here we go again.

In your first post, you stated as a fact that Bush caused the deaths of thousans of people on September 11. That's not a fact, it's a lie. Why is it a lie? Because when presented with actual facts refuting your claim, you refuse to back away from it. That's why it's a lie.

You claim that the President didn't scramble armed military aircraft to intercept the plane bound for the Pentagon. As I've pointed out, that's NORAD's duty, so your "fact," having been repeated several times now, has become a lie.

Those are your two big lies that have no basis in fact.

You've made a whole series of serious allegations that are patently and demonstratably false based on factual evidence that is available to anyone who chooses to read it.

That you keep repeating these allegations over and over after being presented with refutation heightens them to the category of lies.

You've used your own person perceptions as correlative "evidence," with no capacity for understanding how they're not applicable.

And you're not even tracking with your own posts, as seen by the first few lines of this one.

I'm simply aghast. It's like looking at the conversational equivilent of a fatal car wreck.
 
Outstanding post Mike.
Too bad it's not the President's duty to be on the front lines. If Clinton had been in Somalia they would have had the additional gunships that were requested and denied by him and his administration.
I find it interesting that the country's defense posture went to hell in a hand basket in nine months and eleven days of GWB's post and the previous eight years of mishandling of the military, CIA, DIA, FBI, DEA, Custom&Immigration had nothing to do with it. Look it up. It's well documented that all of the above were put under ridiculous restrictions from 1992 through 2000. I've cut and pasted a prime example of why we were left high and dry as well as an easy target by Clinton and his inept cronies. His typical "hunker down" and run with your tail tucked at the earliest available moment because we don't want to make them mad and not like us anymore BS.

edit: Before you point out that he order them to hunker down was at the urging of congress, it never would have gotten to that state had he given what was needed and let the people who get paid to fight wars do their job instead of trying to tell them what they needed to do their job.



Somalia and the future of humanitarian intervention
Foreign Affairs
New York
Mar/Apr 1996

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Authors: Clarke, Walter; Herbst, Jeffrey

"The asymmetry between U.S. forces and the operation's goals reached its
height after the fatal Ranger clash, when President Clinton finally sent
the military equipment, notably gunships and tanks, that U.S. commanders
had been denied. Under heavy congressional pressure, however, the administration instructed U.S. forces to adopt a purely defensive posture, end the hunt for Aideed, and hunker down until the March 31,1994, deadline that President Clinton had set for American withdrawal. The United Nations was left high and dry to pursue sharply limited aspects of the nation-building program designed by the U.S. government 15 months earlier."
 
It seems rather senseless to be obsessing over yesterday's Presidents when we have one right here and now that's as incompetent and descructive as all his predessors combine.

Things you can't take to the bank:
Saddams 's got WMD's
They're buying uranium from Africa
Nobody could anticipate the breech of the levys
I don't even know Jack Abramoff
We'll smoke em out of there holes and everyone associated with them.
.....and my personal favorite,
orig posted by DonR101395
This is my last post on this thread.

Rimrock:)
 
I concede the point.

I stated my facts to support my position. These facts are supported by the existence of video tapes, press releases, news reporting and discussion, and other media. Instead of refuting my facts reality was twisted and fantasy imposed upon us. Then ad hominem attacks were employed in an effort to show that my POV is a "lie" even though no falsehoods were made in my statements.

It's late, I'm tired. Your version of the facts omits important events, includes events not relevant to the issue, and uses tidbits and soundbites to support your version of major decisiomaking requirements by the leaders of our nation. Which sucks because it causes others with small minds and no rational intellect to believe that your version is the truth. It is not the truth but you will never believe that. It also gives those with small minds and narrow ideas the belief that debate is to be performed as a hack and slash assassination event. Which is also not the truth but, based upon your performance in this thread, you believe it to be OK to do that sort of thing.

As I stated, it's late and I'm tired. I no longer wish to have my character abused by those who cannot understand that my opinion matters. It matters because without a dissenting voice your opinion is just an echo in an empty room.

Therefore I concede. GWB apparently has performed his duties without exception and without flaw. Brown failed to inform the fed govt about anything at any time. 9/11 is the fault of Clinton, Bush had no duties or responsibility to anyone or the nation during the attack, and everyone who says otherwise is apparently a liar.
 
I am sure Mike Brown now recalls and fully understands that these words of the late Ronald Reagan were never more true than right now.

"THE MOST TERRIFYING WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE: I'M FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND I'M HERE TO HELP."
 
I only read about 1/3 of this thread and go bored, so if someone else wrote this, forgive me.

Brown was the whipping boy as long as he was on the inside of the Bush admin.

Now he is on the outside, taking shots at the Bush Admin. and he is "not looking so bad now".

Transparent.
 
It seems rather senseless to be obsessing over yesterday's Presidents when we have one right here and now that's as incompetent and descructive as all his predessors combine.

Things you can't take to the bank:
Saddams 's got WMD's
They're buying uranium from Africa
Nobody could anticipate the breech of the levys
I don't even know Jack Abramoff
We'll smoke em out of there holes and everyone associated with them.
.....and my personal favorite,
Quote:
orig posted by DonR101395
This is my last post on this thread.

Rimrock

My appologies RimRock,
Just couldn't hold out after seeing so much drivel from the left. The reason Clinton's name comes up is because he is the one who's incompetance led to GWB inheriting a turd Clinton called national security and you can't polish a turd. I will agree we've gotten way off the Brown subject though.
 
Orig post by DonR101395
My appologies RimRock,
Just couldn't hold out after seeing so much drivel from the left.

I understand that. There does seem to be many more folks getting "on to" your boy lately. Buckle up, it's going to get worse. Don't give it a second thought on the apology. You don't own me anything.... really you don't. However, you may owe the gun community more than you've shown heretofore. Remember, we're ambassadors and our posts say more than our individual words. To some, posting is little more than therapy. Unfortunately those "sessions" or posts live on and are often used to depict us as something we're not.:o
We owe it to each other as gun enthusiasts regardless of our other sociological differences to put our best foot forward and not in our collective mouth.
Give it a try!;)

Rimrock
 
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