Miami's Cocaine Wars

I can't believe with your nickname that you actually made that statement.:rolleyes:
We DO have handguns that have the energy of rifles, now...
460 S&@, 500 Max, 475 Linebaugh, .475 Webley...
At the top of my avoid list is a 200 grain, 45 caliber HP, going 2300 fps, out of a S&@ .460...
 
It's still being shot out of a little gizmo with a short sight radius and limited magazine capacity that is wobbling around without the aid of a shoulder stock or foregrip. Given all that, I'd rather take a 5.56 shoulder arm than an X-frame chambered in "Death Ray".

Your beautiful obsession does keep you entertaining, though, Socrates. Don't you go changing! :D
 
kraigwy wrote:
If I was a cop in the 80s (WAIT, I WAS A COP IN THE 80s), I'd have stuck to my Model 28 Smith. In fact if I was to ever get back into police work I'd want to carry my Model 28.
That's the most intelligent statement in this thread.

As a gun enthusiast, it always surprises me when other gun enthusiasts react to "what if" scenarios with fantasy instead of reason. I guess Hollywood permeates everything. :(
 
I can't believe with your nickname that you actually made that statement.
We DO have handguns that have the energy of rifles, now...
460 S&@, 500 Max, 475 Linebaugh, .475 Webley...
At the top of my avoid list is a 200 grain, 45 caliber HP, going 2300 fps, out of a S&@ .460...

That may be so, but I can't shoot a handgun in those calibers as quickly or accurately as I can a rifle, I can't hit targets as far away as I can with a rifle, and none of those calibers penetrate armor and car bodies as well as a .308 or equivalent. I was always of kind of the opinion that if I really need bigger than a .44 Magnum or heavy .45 Long Colt, I really need a shotgun or rifle.
 
That may be so, but I can't shoot a handgun in those calibers as quickly or accurately as I can a rifle, I can't hit targets as far away as I can with a rifle, and none of those calibers penetrate armor and car bodies as well as a .308 or equivalent. I was always of kind of the opinion that if I really need bigger than a .44 Magnum or heavy .45 Long Colt, I really need a shotgun or rifle.

Excellent points. Mosin Nagant M44, K31 Swiss, .308, 30-06, all would be a far better choice for engaging bad guys with military weapons. My favorite would have been a short barreled M1A.

I won't go with your penetration results, since a .500 Max 525 grain bullet will penetrate about 4 times what any .308 will, at least in buffalo, or newsprint.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

These guns are also hyperaccurate, inherently, due to the bullet size, and weight, and, how they manage to turn any flaws in gun into minor issues.
 
Socrates said:
I won't go with your penetration results, since a .500 Max 525 grain bullet will penetrate about 4 times what any .308 will, at least in buffalo, or newsprint.

Wet newsprint and sheet metal are two completely different meda and require very different factors for effective penetration.

A heavy-for-caliber hard-cast bullet with a broad, flat, sharp-shouldered meplat is outstanding for deep penetration in soft media like wet newsprint, yet will be stopped cold by mild steel that a high-velocity small-caliber spitzer with a tiny frontal area and a hard core would punch through like a laser. And vice versa.
 
I won't go with your penetration results, since a .500 Max 525 grain bullet will penetrate about 4 times what any .308 will, at least in buffalo, or newsprint.

Maybe, but not so much in kevlar or a Chevy.
 
Tamara and Webley:
You'll have to provide evidence, test results, of those, before you convince me of that. While I agree that a smaller caliber is often a big point in penetration, I'm still not convinced the British didn't have the right idea with cannonballs: weight is the most important thing in penetration...
 
Colt 1911A1 Gold Cup (the first semi-auto I ever fired, and fell in love with it).

Considering a drug war probably involves cars and boats for drive-bys and getaways, I'd want a rifle as backup that could penetrate cover. Like a M14 or M1 Garand. Or a shotgun with buck and slugs.
 
Socrates said:
Tamara and Webley:
You'll have to provide evidence, test results, of those, before you convince me of that.

You are assuming I wish to convince you of something that is a painfully evident fact of terminal ballistics (HINT: Why does the 120mm M256 use a subcaliber penetrator instead of a flat-nosed full-bore slug? Why are modern PDW designs all using little needle bullets instead of .455 Keith slugs to penetrate kevlar? Why will a vest that will stop a 300gr .45 Colt get punched through by an 80gr 7.62x25?) Penetration in flesh/soft media, penetration of ballistic weaves, and penetration of hard armor all require different things.

Believe what you want. I'm not here to convince you that water is wet or that the sky is up.
 
Well, I was shooting stuff like cars with sabot rounds in the early 80's, with 450-600 grain .45 to .70 caliber area. Testing for cars sheet metal is concealment, not cover. Any of those sabot rounds would go through most cars length ways, as long as they didn't hit the engine block. We also did tests on manhole covers with .308" armour piercing bullets, and, I do remember the thickest part of the manhole cover just barely retaining one of the 'spikes' that was the armour piercing part of the round. Kind of like a tungsten rod, centered in a lead bullet, that falls away, and the rod continues through the target.
Oh yes, my friends' job was to take pictures of armour piercing projectiles hitting armour, for Lockheed, in the S.C. mountains, in Kali. He used the worlds' fastest camera at the time..
What the military uses to defeat stuff is probably not real applicable to a police officer, or civilian, walking the streets in Miami.
I'm familiar with the concept of armour piercing round design, but, shooting hard cast shotgun sabots, I've noticed that against sheetmetal, they blow right through it, due to weight, regardless of frontal area, thought the .45 and .50 caliber sabots were better designed for that sort of job then the full caliber slugs.

As for why the rounds are designed that way, for military targets, they provide maximum penetration, and, having a .308 bullet that will send a tungsten spike through a 2" thick, or more, man hole cover, well, that is a different situation then the gun battles in Miami. Clearly the advantage to such rounds would be to penetrate armoured limos perhaps, breach vests, and stop cars in an urban setting. However, for a police officer, except in an extreme case, ala L.A. and the bodybuilders with multiple vests, they wouldn't go over well.
I watched a documentary recently on the cocaine wars of the 1980s in Miami, FL. Criminals were murdering rival gang members in broad daylight with military weapons. A Miami detective said that they went to a scene of a shooting and recovered an M1 carbine and a few other full auto weapons and he felt under-equipped with his department issued .38 special revolver. He and several other officers went out that day and bought Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistols.

Had you been the detective in question, what pistol would you have chosen with respect to available handguns of the era?

If armour is in the picture, a CZ 52 is one of the best penetrators of any handgun. That said, I would NOT want to be in the vest when it gets hit with 2000-3000 fpe, from either a .308 rifle, or, a .475 Linebaugh. However, Linebaugh had only got as far as the .454 level 6 shots in the early 80's, and the 454 casull was king of the pile at the time.

As the original poster asked, an era handgun to match up against rifles, I'd probably have to go with a .454 Casull, that being if I had to try and engage in a fire fight with gang guys armed with military weapons, at rifle distances. Freedom Arms made the 83 back then.

I would also have carried a Detonics 1911, with their .451 Detonics rounds, 185 grains at about 1350 fps, or, 200 grains at 1200 fps. These rounds were flat shooting, the guns matchgrade accurate.

Another long range choice might be Lee Jurras' 44 magnum, model 29, using 185 grain bullets, jackets tailored to the target, at 1800-1900 fps.

The Model 57 .41 Magnum would also be an excellent choice.

Similar loads could have been loaded in the FA 83, but, it wasn't DA.

All of these would be to fight my way back to the car, and, get in the trunk, where I'd have a M1A, with 20 round magazine...

Tamara: I was hoping you had an actual test to refer to, since my experience is my hazy memory of testing our sabot rounds in a junk yard, on cars.
We also had a gentleman around here that designed a shorter case, .50 BMG, sort of a .308" version of the .50 BMG, and, it would move 750 grain
bullets at around 2600 fps. The rounds were designed to penetrate engine blocks, to stop potential terrorists from getting into places like the Livermore Nuclear Lab. I think the contract finally went to Barrett, but, his round would go through an engine block...
 
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Don't know about the gun...but i would be driving a Ferrari Daytona, wearing Armani clothing (double breated suits or jackets in white with pink t-shirts), no socks, loafers, wacky hair-do, listening to my favorite tunes such as Phil Collins on my cassette tapes a la MIAMA VICE - ah those were the days !(for those of us who grew up in that era)... :):):)
 
Don't know about the gun...but i would be driving a Ferrari Daytona, wearing Armani clothing (double breated suits or jackets in white with pink t-shirts), no socks, loafers, wacky hair-do, listening to my favorite tunes such as Phil Collins on my cassette tapes a la MIAMA VICE - ah those were the days !(for those of us who grew up in that era)...

In that case, a Bren Ten or S&W 4506 would be appropriate.
 
One of my friends was with Customs in the 80's in Miami.

At that time he carried two Browning Hi Powers. You should have heard him when Customs said "No more Single Action Pistols." I think when Customs ruled out the Single Action Pistol every Firearms Instructor for Customs had to go out that night and buy a new Double Action Autoloader to come to work with the next day.

I know the FI's at Benning all carried a 1911 at that time. Personally, I carried a 686 at that time, but wasn't in Miami. I wouldn't have felt undergunned with it, as we had stuff happening out west too. The capacity of the gun doesn't make up for poor tactics and missed shots.

Biker
 
I would start with a SIG P220 in a shoulder rig, and a Detonics Combat Master in an ankle holster. A sawed-off Ithaca shotgun and S&W .38 snub for my partner. After one year I would swap out the SIG P220 for a Bren Ten. In two more years I would swap out the Bren for a S&W 645, followed by a 4506.

:) Most don't get the joke, methinks.
 
The drug wars of the 80's made life exciting. I'm so glad we only had to put up with pansy groups like the Black Panthers, the Vinceremos Brigade, SDS, Weather Underground, and the SLA out here on the left coast. :rolleyes:

Nightly load out consisted of a 6-inch Colt Trooper Mk III with 2 speedloaders and a S&W Model 39 in a shoulder holster with 4 spare magazines. For serious power, an HK 91 rode in the trunk with seven magazines.
 
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