Marlin .444 Downs Charging Grizzly

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Once again, the .444 discussion ALWAYS devolves into the 45-70 is better. Well gosh Willy Gee, is that news? Yes, the 45-70 is a more powerful cartridge.

Marlin .444 Downs Charging Grizzly

The debate over how good the .444 is or isn't nearly always gets side tracked by comments of I prefer the 45-70 more. The issue of whether the .444 is a good bear defense gun thus goes unanswered every time. Before this thread once again is side tracked, read of the account of a hunter in Canada that killed a charging grizzly with two shots from a .444 and walked away unscathed.
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Sorry, as I stated in my opening post the biggest issue with the .444 not being accepted is its bigger brother the 45-70. The 45-70 is a great gun but it comes with the price of huge recoil. It is like the debate between the the 30-06 and .300 Win Mag. Many folks choose the 30-06 due to recoil issues with the .300 WM. However, since the 30-06 has a following and is a proven entity, that debate centers around why do you need the .300 WM since the 30-06 does almost the same things.

Now, back to the OP, the subject is how well the .444 works as a grizzly bear defense gun. For my purpose and in avoiding undue recoil at the same time, it worked well for this man and I would expect the same if I ever needed.

Now go back to bash this much under rated gun and let's hear the 45-70 is better routine once again. Sorry, that is not the discussion of this post. Plenty of .444, 45-70 or .450 threads out there on TFL already.
 
mleake made the critical point.It is ALL about the bullet.The fact that rifling twist has been tightened up to 1 in 20 is good news.

Using bullets designed for the .44 mag in the same situation would probably not work well.

Taking it one more step away from the 45-70,with the proper bullets,the .405 Win ,etc would be fine,too.

I have no Africa experience,but from what I have read,the 2000 to 2400 vel range of medium bore,like the .450/400,9.3 x 62,etc all performed well.
 
I suspect that if the .444 were a bit more popular than it currently is right now, we would have much better cartridge selection. There is no doubt that with properly designed shells, the .444 can get the job done. I would love to see a 405 gr bullet that pushes the current limits of factory ammo. If folks knew the truth of just how good the .444 is, I suspect it would become more popular giving me better choices for ammo. Hornady just upped the ante with a revised .444 265 gr light mag:

http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-interlock-FP-Superformance/
 
I have no Africa experience,but from what I have read,the 2000 to 2400 vel range of medium bore,like the .450/400,9.3 x 62,etc all performed well.
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Most of the FIELD testing seems to prove that point.

Every single time someone brings up their favorite rifle/ammo/dog/etc - someone else has something better. Is there any better rifle than the 444? You betcha! Would I like to shoot it all day at the range? Not in my lifetime.
 
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I really liked my 444 and I did not feel under gunned at all when walking griz country with it.

I loaded a WW cast bullet from a Ranch Dog 265g mold over some IMR4198. It moved out at about 2,100fps. I would be very surprised if that bullet did not penetrate though and through on most any animal in North America. I kinda regret selling it.

When I got a new lever gun, I did get the 45-70, but that was simply because I wanted to try something else. I hope to own another 444 someday soon.
 
What differnce does bullet weight make, if the bullet used is passing all the way through and exiting? In other words, if a 300 gr is passing through and exiting, what advantage do you get with a 405 or 525gr?
 
I don't think it's all that much ,I prefer pass through !
In my 44mag revolver I used the old Speer 225 jhpswc on deer -All were 1 shot kills , only one bullet recovered !! That would have been considered a premium bullet , sad to see it discontinued .
For handgun those heavy bullets in the 44 mag , 300+ bullets ,help accuracy at long range , not too much more.
 
What impresses me is that he was able to get two shoots off, try that with a bolt action.
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With rifles that generate that much recoil there is zero difference. I've done a little work with a timer. The shorter lever throws and lighter recoil make lever guns in pistol calibers slightly faster for repeat shots. With rifle rounds the lever throw is about twice as far and with the greater recoil involved you can work a bolt gun just as fast. It takes longer to recover from recoil and get back on target than to cycle the action with either.
 
What differnce does bullet weight make, if the bullet used is passing all the way through and exiting? In other words, if a 300 gr is passing through and exiting, what advantage do you get with a 405 or 525gr?
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A heavier bullet could make all the difference if hitting a big bone on the way in.

We don't know what exactly those bullets hit, and I'm not sure I'd get all excited over it's performance at 10 yds

The man used what he had and got lucky, but if he had a choice I bet he'd want a bigger gun next time

It was a very big boar over 7ft and the co,s estimated it,s weight at 550-600lbs.
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That's about the size of an NC Black Bear
 
You guys are missing the point. It only works when the bear runs away from you. If it keeps coming you are toast no matter what you are using at that close a range bceuase it does not matter if the bear has a beatinghear or working lungs because it has enough adrenalin for the minute it is gpoing to take to chomp you once.
 
^^^Teehee…


Yep! Glad the dead on his feet bear changed course, else how could we have such an elightening conversation? Just think, it could have been "Man with sharp stick staves off bear attack, according to So Easy a Caveman Could Do It News". I jest but don't tend to take "one off" kills too seriously especially if
no doubt in our minds
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personal opinion at the behest of the media is the basis for the argument.

Correct...I have not had any grizzly charge encounters with any caliber rifle to validate my opinion, but I did have an Uncle that one time...
 
It was a very big boar over 7ft and the co,s estimated it,s weight at 550-600lbs.
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That's about the size of an NC Black Bear
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Did you smoke your breakfast today? ;)

Black bears rarely exceed 350 lbs, and it is nearly unheard of for one to exceed 400 lbs. Yes, it does happen, and 500+ lb bears have been verified, but the AVERAGE adult black bear is under 250 lbs. :rolleyes:
 
I would like to see some pictures of these big black bears. At best I might have seen one up to 400 pounds in Northern Michigan. And we had lots of bears.
 
here in pa. several blacks over 500lbs are shot every year, not the norm but they can grow that big. i have a picture of one thats over 500 lbs. eastbank.
 
Did you smoke your breakfast today?

Black bears rarely exceed 350 lbs, and it is nearly unheard of for one to exceed 400 lbs. Yes, it does happen, and 500+ lb bears have been verified, but the AVERAGE adult black bear is under 250 lbs.
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Our (world) record is 880 lbs (killed about 10 miles from my house), and 500-600 lbs is not unusual at all in Eastern NC

NC Holds Black Bear Record - Xtreme Recoil
xtremerecoil.net/nc-holds-black-bear-record
Apr 4 2013. NC Holds Black Bear Record. The world record weight for an American black bear is 880 pounds. This was the recorded weight of a 10.75 year-old male bear ...
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This 647 lb bear was just our 17th largest

http://gothunts.com/north-carolina-record-black-bear-confirmed/

It took five years to do it, but the state of North Carolina finally confirmed Billy Walkowiak’s 2004 black bear as the 17th largest North Carolina record black bear ever taken in NC.

Billy’s North Carolina record black bear had an official weight of 647 pounds and was estimated to be nine years, nine months old. The record bruin was shot on a dog hunt in Hyde County, NC, a hotbed for big bears in the state.
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Note that this is 54 over 500 lbs just one season:

During the 2003-2004 season, North Carolina produced 48 bears in excess of 500 pounds at the coast but only six bears weighing more than 500 pounds in the mountains.
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I would like to see some pictures of these big black bears. At best I might have seen one up to 400 pounds in Northern Michigan. And we had lots of bears.
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This isn't the biggest one, but it's #3 right now, as far as I know:

The second all time heaviest bear in North Carolina was taken this week and most likely the heaviest black bear any hunter in North America will take this year. This bear tipped the scales (certified) at 760 lbs making it the largest bear any hunter has taken while hunting with Conman’s Guide Service in Creswell North Carolina.
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http://www.skinnymoose.com/moosedroppings/2009/11/11/massive-black-bear-killed-in-north-carolina/

Here's the (I think) current #2:
www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=3104
Washington County hunters chase down 780-pound black bear, second-largest ever taken in North Carolina Close-range shot finally finishes off huge boar
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http://www.northcarolinasportsman.com/details.php?id=3104
 
I have always found it amusing that the .444 merits as a defensive rifle in Bear country are even questioned. Most people will not argue the fact that a 44 Mag, 454 Casul, or 480 Ruger are good handguns to defend against Browns. Yet, the same people will say the 444 Marlin, which can do anything the above 3 can do, is not a good defensive rifle.
I guess there are just some who will feel undergunned with anything other than a .458 Lott or 460 WBY, but to each his own.

On a side note, I live pretty close to NC (N.E. Ga). There are some monster Blacks across the border. We have some decent ones here, but the monsters are in the Tar Heel state.
 
I think most of the criticism against the 444 is targeted specifically to using the lighter weight jacketed .44 Mag bullets which like any bullet, have a design limit and the 444 can most certainly exceed that which leads to poor penetration. The same bullet in a .44 mag would hold together better and penetrate better despite slower velocity because it's being utilized correctly. As other have pointed out, use the right bullet for the job and no question the 444 is a potent choice.
 
Unorthodox Chemical Defense against bears.

Did you smoke your breakfast today?
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LOL @ FrankenMauser. Just don't give him any grief about his spelling, FRank.

I don't care how far off the bear was, or what kinda rifle I might have, by the time bear got to ME, I woulda smelled WAY too bad for the bear to be interested in tangling with me!
 
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