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Manufacturing your own press
- Thread starter xandi
- Start date
JeepHammer
Moderator
King pin reamers are for TAPERED king pins.
I've never seen a straight through bore for a king pin, but I've not seen every king pin ever made.
Mostly big trucks & tractors...
I used a boring bar with twin cutting tools spaced for top/bottom of the press frame.
This allowed me to use a bearing support on the bar, in the 'O' opening of the press and made for an extremely precise bore.
Hounddawg, a collet supports the rim/groove and keeps it from expanding.
A collet keeps rim/groove pulled down, so head (headstamp surface) stays square.
A collet is the ONLY way I've found to 'Quick Change' brass with absloute control of form/centering of the brass.
Keep in mind the ATK/Federal uses collets to handle brass in high speed CNC production machining of brass for both Federal & Lake City brass.
Other than pin press tube forming dies, all the old heavy metal machines are mostly gone, everything is ultra light CNC controlled equipment.
Damn shame the old equipment was broken up & sold as scrap...
When the press is bored straight through in one process, the ram & die BORES are PRECISELY ALIGNED.
Any misalignment from that point will come from the threading process, or die bores that aren't centered.
This is opposed to a 'C' type (single support side) press that allows EVERY SINGLE BRASS to bend when the DIE misaligns (the 'C' opens up, misaligning the die).
If the die is misaligned with the ram, every single brass that goes through it has the potential to be 'Bent'.
Doesn't matter how square the ram is, doesn't matter how much slop is in the shell holder.
When the die is ANGLED to the ram, the ram providing force to the case HEAD, the case SIDES will deflect from the head. Bent cases...
Since press builders understand this, I believe this is the reason for so many 'Co-Axial' and 'O' frame presses.
An 'Arbor' press is just WAY overbuilt, and shouldn't deflect too much. If it's an older American made arbor press and not one of the 'China Mystery Metal' press, it *Should* do the job,and would be the exception to not using a 'C' frame press.
Arbor presses aren't really set up to do reloading, so you had better be handy with making adapters...
I warned you I was OCD,
Now, keep in mind I had to make centerline jigs just to measure concentricity changes, to measure run-out on the head to find these issues since I didn't own a 'C' frame press at the time.
Obsessed with concentricity, I was convinced I was on the edge of a breakthrough... Notice there wasn't any big articles on breakthroughs... No revelations found... Go figure!
I found that bolt faces were often plug milled as much angled as the brass came out of the 'O' frame presses, making any precise squaring off the head to case wall completely moot.
It *Might* make 0.0005" difference if the bolt face were precisely lapped square with chamber, but that goes out the window if the chamber has ANY slop in it, which virtually 100% do have some slop...
Lots of time & money spent on OCD brass without thinking through the firearm imperfections!
I still hone/lap dies to fit specific chambers in bench rifles, which usually have dies & case gauges cut with the same chamber cutting tools,
While common rifles (99.9999%) come with precut chambers so making the die fit the chamber is the way to go.
Common chambers rarely need a specialized die since the rest of the rifle isn't optimized, so no point, and most people are fine with 1-1/2 to 2 MOA @ 100 yds.
I've never seen a straight through bore for a king pin, but I've not seen every king pin ever made.
Mostly big trucks & tractors...
I used a boring bar with twin cutting tools spaced for top/bottom of the press frame.
This allowed me to use a bearing support on the bar, in the 'O' opening of the press and made for an extremely precise bore.
Hounddawg, a collet supports the rim/groove and keeps it from expanding.
A collet keeps rim/groove pulled down, so head (headstamp surface) stays square.
A collet is the ONLY way I've found to 'Quick Change' brass with absloute control of form/centering of the brass.
Keep in mind the ATK/Federal uses collets to handle brass in high speed CNC production machining of brass for both Federal & Lake City brass.
Other than pin press tube forming dies, all the old heavy metal machines are mostly gone, everything is ultra light CNC controlled equipment.
Damn shame the old equipment was broken up & sold as scrap...
When the press is bored straight through in one process, the ram & die BORES are PRECISELY ALIGNED.
Any misalignment from that point will come from the threading process, or die bores that aren't centered.
This is opposed to a 'C' type (single support side) press that allows EVERY SINGLE BRASS to bend when the DIE misaligns (the 'C' opens up, misaligning the die).
If the die is misaligned with the ram, every single brass that goes through it has the potential to be 'Bent'.
Doesn't matter how square the ram is, doesn't matter how much slop is in the shell holder.
When the die is ANGLED to the ram, the ram providing force to the case HEAD, the case SIDES will deflect from the head. Bent cases...
Since press builders understand this, I believe this is the reason for so many 'Co-Axial' and 'O' frame presses.
An 'Arbor' press is just WAY overbuilt, and shouldn't deflect too much. If it's an older American made arbor press and not one of the 'China Mystery Metal' press, it *Should* do the job,and would be the exception to not using a 'C' frame press.
Arbor presses aren't really set up to do reloading, so you had better be handy with making adapters...
I warned you I was OCD,
Now, keep in mind I had to make centerline jigs just to measure concentricity changes, to measure run-out on the head to find these issues since I didn't own a 'C' frame press at the time.
Obsessed with concentricity, I was convinced I was on the edge of a breakthrough... Notice there wasn't any big articles on breakthroughs... No revelations found... Go figure!
I found that bolt faces were often plug milled as much angled as the brass came out of the 'O' frame presses, making any precise squaring off the head to case wall completely moot.
It *Might* make 0.0005" difference if the bolt face were precisely lapped square with chamber, but that goes out the window if the chamber has ANY slop in it, which virtually 100% do have some slop...
Lots of time & money spent on OCD brass without thinking through the firearm imperfections!
I still hone/lap dies to fit specific chambers in bench rifles, which usually have dies & case gauges cut with the same chamber cutting tools,
While common rifles (99.9999%) come with precut chambers so making the die fit the chamber is the way to go.
Common chambers rarely need a specialized die since the rest of the rifle isn't optimized, so no point, and most people are fine with 1-1/2 to 2 MOA @ 100 yds.
don't know how much plainer I can say it but if there is not play in the case holder to allow the case to align itself to the bore of a full length die you would damage the case or it would not be able to enter the die unless it was perfectly centered on the bore of the die. If the case was off center from a full length die by even .0001 and the case head was being rigidly held with no room for movement then either the case would have to bend .0001 or .0001 would be shaved off the brass or the FL die would have to move before it would enter the die. Something has to give in that siruation.
rather than design case holders that are perfectly aligned to the die it is easier to just allow the case to align itself. That is why case holders are designed to allow the case to float
rather than design case holders that are perfectly aligned to the die it is easier to just allow the case to align itself. That is why case holders are designed to allow the case to float
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King pin reamers are for TAPERED king pins.
I've never seen a straight through bore for a king pin, but I've not seen every king pin ever made.
I can’t say I have ever come across a tapered kingpin in automotive use.
If they were tapered, the depth you run the reamer down would be critical and it’s not with the ones like in #33.
And I have reamers in sets, I have reamers that were given to me if I purchased a certain brand of parts. Norma was like that in the old days, I am sure I have one of their reamers for the 308 Norma mag, as sure as I know I have one I am as sure it would require some digging to find it.
Tapered reamers: I have tapered reamers, I have tapered taps and I have tapered plugs that are threaded but I do not have tapered reamers for king pin bushings. I have a large set of reamers that are adjustable; to be adjustable there has to be a taper somewhere.
F. Guffey
Tapered reamers: I have tapered reamers, I have tapered taps and I have tapered plugs that are threaded but I do not have tapered reamers for king pin bushings. I have a large set of reamers that are adjustable; to be adjustable there has to be a taper somewhere.
F. Guffey
And I have had questions about the strongest rifle in the world, I have said forget the strongest rifle in the world I want the cases. Later Remington built the rifle of ring around the ring around the ring.
And then I thought about making a tool that would check alignment between the ram and the die, and then I had another thought about building it to check the alignment under a load or without a load.
F. Guffey
And then I thought about making a tool that would check alignment between the ram and the die, and then I had another thought about building it to check the alignment under a load or without a load.
F. Guffey
JeepHammer
Moderator
With press frame lathe mounted on the tool cradle, cutting tool mounted between centers, you get as close to an absloute straight line as is possible on common equipment.
I saw a YouTube video where a home caster melted small engine crankshafts and poured his own press frame, cast steel. Keep in mind the pouring wasn't 'Forged' after the casting, so it *Could* have voids &
fault lines (bubbles & pour line faults).
It looked really interesting, but pouring molten steel isn't something everyone wants to set up for.
I'll cast aluminum & brass, but steel is MUCH more difficult and takes much more time & energy to do.
Figure in the cost & time to cast a press frame, it makes more sense to build a press like the ones shown in pictures above.
The biggest issue I have with 'Co-Axial' type presses is small diameter rods that can stretch & deflect.
The biggest issue I have with 'O' frame presses is small diameter rams, again, deflection.
The second biggest is the length of the guide for the ram, which in industral presses is usually twice the length of the diameter of the ram/rods.
Industral presses often have guides 3X & 4X the diameter of the ram.
It's a surface area/support thing. The small amount of weight & extra material would keep the ram from deflecting, also allow for lubrication groove that would substantially prolong useful life of the press.
Light surface lubrication significantly increases life of presses, we all know that, but industral presses usually have a lubrication delivery groove(s) and a reservoir for continuous delivery.
I think it was Mr. Guffy that commented on knurling to hold grease, but a continuous grease delivery device is a GREAT thing on a press! Positive grease delivery means there is always grease, and where grease is, moisture & crud can't get in...
Now, keep in mind the grease delivery 'Cups' (spring loaded) don't have to be hanging right off the press frame in the way. A grease gun 'Whip' hose is just a few bucks and allows you to remotely locate the 'continuous greaser' so it's not in your way.
These lubricator 'Cups' are called Single Point Lubricator
This link will show you what they look like,
https://weldwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?::1:WLDWH:1:025=B1741-A
Guys that reload a bunch will appreciate the continuous lubrication...
I saw a YouTube video where a home caster melted small engine crankshafts and poured his own press frame, cast steel. Keep in mind the pouring wasn't 'Forged' after the casting, so it *Could* have voids &
fault lines (bubbles & pour line faults).
It looked really interesting, but pouring molten steel isn't something everyone wants to set up for.
I'll cast aluminum & brass, but steel is MUCH more difficult and takes much more time & energy to do.
Figure in the cost & time to cast a press frame, it makes more sense to build a press like the ones shown in pictures above.
The biggest issue I have with 'Co-Axial' type presses is small diameter rods that can stretch & deflect.
The biggest issue I have with 'O' frame presses is small diameter rams, again, deflection.
The second biggest is the length of the guide for the ram, which in industral presses is usually twice the length of the diameter of the ram/rods.
Industral presses often have guides 3X & 4X the diameter of the ram.
It's a surface area/support thing. The small amount of weight & extra material would keep the ram from deflecting, also allow for lubrication groove that would substantially prolong useful life of the press.
Light surface lubrication significantly increases life of presses, we all know that, but industral presses usually have a lubrication delivery groove(s) and a reservoir for continuous delivery.
I think it was Mr. Guffy that commented on knurling to hold grease, but a continuous grease delivery device is a GREAT thing on a press! Positive grease delivery means there is always grease, and where grease is, moisture & crud can't get in...
Now, keep in mind the grease delivery 'Cups' (spring loaded) don't have to be hanging right off the press frame in the way. A grease gun 'Whip' hose is just a few bucks and allows you to remotely locate the 'continuous greaser' so it's not in your way.
These lubricator 'Cups' are called Single Point Lubricator
This link will show you what they look like,
https://weldwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?::1:WLDWH:1:025=B1741-A
Guys that reload a bunch will appreciate the continuous lubrication...
These lubricator 'Cups' are called Single Point Lubricator
This link will show you what they look like,
I can not remember when lubricators were not available, in the old days the cup was threaded; when full of grease the operator would give the cup an occasional turn to lube and push our dirt, grit and grime with ware particles if present.
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JeepHammer
Moderator
Like there isn't lubrication issues, leverage issues, linkage issues and a dozen other issues with the current crop of available presses to fix if you are bored...
Re-reading the original, I have to caution against welding on railroad track...
Welding on high manganese steel takes a lot more talent that welding up common steel with a buzz box.
I've tried it, didn't turn out well, like it didn't turn out well when I attempted to weld cast iron.
One thing about bolting components together, if bolt holes are drilled square & true, the frame stays square & true. No warping from heat or building jigs trying to keep your parts true through the heat expansion/contraction. Single use jigging sucks...
Re-reading the original, I have to caution against welding on railroad track...
Welding on high manganese steel takes a lot more talent that welding up common steel with a buzz box.
I've tried it, didn't turn out well, like it didn't turn out well when I attempted to weld cast iron.
One thing about bolting components together, if bolt holes are drilled square & true, the frame stays square & true. No warping from heat or building jigs trying to keep your parts true through the heat expansion/contraction. Single use jigging sucks...
Not a reloading press but I have three arbor presses, I modified one for some heavy duty forming. No matter how strong the press is designed there is a limit, that limit will be recognized as soon as the reloader fails to lube the case and or uses a lube of questionable quality.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
And it is not for everyone; anyone that can think up more reasons for not doing it than they can think up reasons for doing it just should not do it. I am most fortunate, I am surrounded with can do people, they are talented.
And there are a few that call looking for help, my favorite answer? "First I need to determine if it can be done".
F. Guffey
And there are a few that call looking for help, my favorite answer? "First I need to determine if it can be done".
F. Guffey
JeepHammer
Moderator
Not *Can* it be done... (Yes)
The question is *SHOULD* it be done?
Spending weeks and $1,000 on a $25-$75 press when it's done... *Should* you have done that...?
Will your results be superior to commonly available offerings? (Or even equal?)
Is this going to be big, heavy chunk of nothing special you aren't going to use much past showing off the fact you made a press?
The question is *SHOULD* it be done?
Spending weeks and $1,000 on a $25-$75 press when it's done... *Should* you have done that...?
Will your results be superior to commonly available offerings? (Or even equal?)
Is this going to be big, heavy chunk of nothing special you aren't going to use much past showing off the fact you made a press?
Spending weeks and $1,000 on a $25-$75 press when it's done... *Should* you have done that...?
Will your results be superior to commonly available offerings? (Or even equal?)
Is this going to be big, heavy chunk of nothing special you aren't going to use much past showing off the fact you made a press?
I mentioned a crew member that went on a one way trip. He survived the trip and the crash at then end of it. He became a reloader/shooter etc. reloading and shooting with one arm was not easy for him so he made a press. One more time, he had failures because he required an assist on the presses he was going to use and nothing would hold up under the hydraulic system he made. SO? He built his own press, a most magnificent press. The press belongs to a recourse person on anything WW1 and WW11, he is also a shooter/reloader etc.
The man is one of my resource people, and if he did not think I cared and or was not interested I do not believe he would have said a word about owning it. And he gave me a sled that was built by the same person that built the magnificent press.
I do not care how much the press is worth.
F. Guffey