Wildalaska
Moderator
But see, now you are off the subject 
It isnt a legal question per the OP
WildthreadriftalertbwaaaaadangerdangerAlaska TM
It isnt a legal question per the OP
WildthreadriftalertbwaaaaadangerdangerAlaska TM
Mandatory Training for CCW
- Thread starter Wildalaska
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Billy Sparks
New member
But if there is no required training how would you know your actions had moved into the realm of negligence? I am talking about your didn't realize that your states laws said X or Y about the use of deadly force.
Also this would have to be one a state and local level. I would not want to have to go to Gunsite, et al for training. The reason is that altough they would give me top notch weapon handleing training they could not tell me (with certainty) diddly about NC laws.
Hallucinator
New member
I'm of two minds about this. I grew up around people who knew guns, and they never had accidents. In those days, there was no need for training, because gun safety and courtesy was a tradition.
Unfortunately, that tradition is gone. Although, most people who are legal gun owners are responsible enough to learn gun safety whether or not it is mandatory, there are others who have no idea what they're doing. Somebody who gets a gun for self defense and doesn't practice is a hazard to themselves and others. I think the training is important.
Getting gun safety embedded in the muscle memory is really an advantage. Even if you are being absent minded, chances are your body remembers to keep the finger off the trigger and to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. The only way to achieve this is through repetition.
Unfortunately, we live in a culture where people have to be told what to do. Therefore I believe training in gun safety has to be mandatory, just as background checks are necessary to keep psychotics from getting guns. It's a sad state of affairs, but all you have to do is observe what goes on in the world of street kids with guns to know how serious the situation is.
Unfortunately, that tradition is gone. Although, most people who are legal gun owners are responsible enough to learn gun safety whether or not it is mandatory, there are others who have no idea what they're doing. Somebody who gets a gun for self defense and doesn't practice is a hazard to themselves and others. I think the training is important.
Getting gun safety embedded in the muscle memory is really an advantage. Even if you are being absent minded, chances are your body remembers to keep the finger off the trigger and to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. The only way to achieve this is through repetition.
Unfortunately, we live in a culture where people have to be told what to do. Therefore I believe training in gun safety has to be mandatory, just as background checks are necessary to keep psychotics from getting guns. It's a sad state of affairs, but all you have to do is observe what goes on in the world of street kids with guns to know how serious the situation is.
Rob Pincus
New member
This is a very slippery slope.....
I believe everyone should be responsible enough to get training, but I don't like the idea of the gov't mandating what that training should consist of.
Colorado went to a very low level of required training a few years ago. I do not do the $50/4 hr "state minimum" course that many of the local instructor types do on the weekends. Technically, the state says that a qualified instructor only has to document that the applicant has "demonstrated competency" with a firearm.
When people call Valhalla about training for permits, we tell them that if they take our 2 or 3 day concealed carry tactics course, we will consider writing a letter to their Sheriff based on their performance.
-RJP
I believe everyone should be responsible enough to get training, but I don't like the idea of the gov't mandating what that training should consist of.
Colorado went to a very low level of required training a few years ago. I do not do the $50/4 hr "state minimum" course that many of the local instructor types do on the weekends. Technically, the state says that a qualified instructor only has to document that the applicant has "demonstrated competency" with a firearm.
When people call Valhalla about training for permits, we tell them that if they take our 2 or 3 day concealed carry tactics course, we will consider writing a letter to their Sheriff based on their performance.
-RJP
When the Virginia 'shall issue' law was in the legislature the training issue was brought up.
Since training had already been used to deny permits under the old 'may issue' system a uniform (but very lax) standard was passed.
§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence:
1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;
2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;
4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;
6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;
8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or
9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.
A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.
Is is strictly a safety requirement.
Virginia has NO statute law governing deadly force (it is ALL case law).
The 'Virginia Gun Owners Guide' is available and covers the basics of the case law very well.
With over 140,000 permits there have not been any significant problems.
Since training had already been used to deny permits under the old 'may issue' system a uniform (but very lax) standard was passed.
§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
G. The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence:
1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;
2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;
4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;
6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;
8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or
9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.
A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.
Is is strictly a safety requirement.
Virginia has NO statute law governing deadly force (it is ALL case law).
The 'Virginia Gun Owners Guide' is available and covers the basics of the case law very well.
With over 140,000 permits there have not been any significant problems.
DonR101395
New member
It's absolutely a legal question. When you start talking about the government mandating anything it becomes a legal issue.
They don't teach you all of the state laws regarding car ownership in drivers ed. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
I'm not against training, I'm just against govt mandated training. I spend $1500-$2000 a year on training courses of various types. I don't expect others to go to that level, but I don't want to the govt telling me I need to spend that money on training either.
Thunderhawk88
Moderator
Oh please! Mandatory training for CCW does not infringe on your right to bear arms, but it does provide a slight assurance that you are not a putz with a gun.
Sure. Go ahead. Support manditory training. Then watch them start raising the standard of what they consider "trained." Pretty soon a Gunsite graduate won't qualify.
That's exactly the kind of thinking that got us the gun control laws we've got now. "It's just a reasonable restriction. They'll stop now."
Keep the camels nose out of the tent.
That's exactly the kind of thinking that got us the gun control laws we've got now. "It's just a reasonable restriction. They'll stop now."
Keep the camels nose out of the tent.
DonR101395
New member
Really, there is mandatory training to get a driver's license for a teen and I see plenty of putz's behind the wheel.
It's a feel good measure that people let be put into legislation to get CCW permit bills passed. It absolutely infringes on your right to bear arms. Without the mandatory training you can not carry and that is an infringement.
David Armstrong
Moderator
The answer to that problem is contact some of the travelling trainers and see how much it would cost for them to come to you and your range to put on a training program. You might be surprised how inexpensive the cost can be. Feel free to contact me in private message if you want and I'll put you in touch with some of them.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Sure and there are trained putzes with guns too...there are always going to be putzes...
But on the other hand, if we are all the "militia" as is frequently harped on...then shouldnt we ALL get training, say on the High School Level?
Like Driver Ed and how to put on a condom? Doesnt Gun training ADVANCE gun ownership?
WildarentweallinfavorofeddieeagleAlaska ™
I'll never be for mandatory training as a requirement for CCW, but firearms safety training for everyone in public school is something I could support. That is of course, if the safety training was more than, "Guns are evil... do your parents own any? Let us know, so we can protect you from them..."
Wildalaska
Moderator
leaving any LEGAL objections out....why?
To all of you...why? Put aside ANY objections on constituional grounds!
WildbackontrackAlaska ™
Wildalaska
Moderator
So you are perfectly happy with untrained folks willy nilly CCWing.?
You know, up here, someone who has never shot a gun can CCW...any ninja can come in, buy a gun, get a lesson on how to load it, and walk out and carry it concealed for self defense...
That acceptable in a modern society?
WildifsowhyAlaska ™
DonR101395
New member
WA, you seem to be missing the point that I'm not against training, I'm against the government mandating and regulating training.
Outside of the military/LEO can you give one example of a quality training program the federal government operates? Even the military and federal LEO leaves a lot to be desired. Many times it's antiquated.
Yes
The problem is?
Just like gun control, if the government regulates it there will always be those folks who will continue to do as they wish. There are laws regulating CCW now, but there are still arrests everyday for illegally carrying a concealed weapon.
Absolutely
Since we are comparing it to driving.
Let's compare costs. A driver's license here costs $22 for the initial and $12 for renewal driver's education is provided in school and after having two kids go through the program I can say without a doubt it's the most worthless part of their education they received. They both received an A in the class and neither had a clue about how to actually drive.
A CCW permit is $117 for the initial and $67 for renewal, most of the CCW training courses in this area cost between $75-$100 and there is no firing requirement.
Do you think it's going to cost less and be a better program if the federal govt gets involved and starts mandating a training syllabus? Their history with managing programs isn't exactly stellar IMO.
Wildalaska
Moderator
See what you are confusing is the issue of '"what" trainig...vis a vis just training.
What if the government says...you must get training, here are your options (see statute cited above)
You dont see any?
WildahmshawkedAlaska ™
What if the government says...you must get training, here are your options (see statute cited above)
You dont see any?
WildahmshawkedAlaska ™
DonR101395
New member
I still oppose it. The cited requirements are very similar nearly identical to those in FL.
You can't legislate morality and common sense, but you can prosecute negligence and criminal behavior. I view getting training for myself as a moral obligation to safe ownership and use.
I see a host of potential civil and criminal liability issues. The justice system should handle those issues, the legislative system should not be in the business of acting as the nanny for those without the moral fortitude and common sense to understand that they should get training before engaging in any inherently dangerous and potentially deadly endeavor.
Wildalaska
Moderator
What about protection for the innocent folks who are confronted daily with those folks armed with a dangerous weapon who " lack the moral fortitude and common sense" we all agree are the hallmarks of the responsible gun owner.
There be the horns of the dilemma you have hoisted your flagpole on (nice mixed metaphors, huh
)....you admit that UNTRAINED folks lack moral fortitude and "common sense", but have no problems with letting those folks willy nilly carry a deadly weapon, when they are primae facie unqualified to.WildandyourresponseisAlaska ™
If we had a uniform CCW course with standards that there would be no problem with reciprocity for most of the states.
We require our law enforcment officer to do the same. Whats the problem with a citizen doing the same?
The course in Texas teaches you the laws and you have to complete a hands on qualification test.
We require our law enforcment officer to do the same. Whats the problem with a citizen doing the same?
The course in Texas teaches you the laws and you have to complete a hands on qualification test.
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