"Man bag" carry

I have used two Armstrong bags. One a fanny pack style for a pistol and the other one for small submachine guns. Good products if you decided to go that route but body carry is preferred. Given how many people I see with guns printing thru their clothes I guess that isn't as big an issue as I have been lead to believe...????
 
Printing?

Given how many people I see with guns printing thru their clothes I guess that isn't as big an issue as I have been lead to believe...????
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That all depends on where you live.

In Oklahoma it was a big deal a year ago November,,,
But then we passed the open carry law,,,
Now printing is meaningless.

But what has printing to do with off-body carry? :confused:

Aarond

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Article in American Rifleman,,,

This months American Rifleman has an article on off-body carry.

They have pics of several styles of bags,,,
Including the briefcase I carry.

The article itself was somewhat bland,,,
They didn't talk about anything we hadn't already broached.

Was it coincidence that we just started discussing this?,,,
Or did someone see the article before I did?

Aarond

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Sometimes off body carry is faster

Off body carry doesn't have to be slower. I normally carry IWB. But there are times that I supplement this method by using a canvas attache type bag that zippers across the top. It has a wide shoulder strap. On the outside there is a sleeve that I put a file folder in and a section of a newspaper just for appearance. Inside the bag on the bottom facing forward I place a S&W model 640 five shot revolver with concealed hammer. When I am on elevators or when I am forced to walk on stairways I place my arm inside the bag but not holding the gun. If attacked in an elevator or on a narrow stairway the gun is not withdrawn, it is fired right through the bag. Nothing is faster in that type of situation.

Bill
 
My CCW is attached to my body whenever I'm wearing clothes. I don't even like to leave it locked in my car when I enter a gun free zone, which is why I try to avoid such places whenever possible.

One reason I don't believe in off body carry is absentmindedness. My cell phone is always attached to my body whenever I'm wearing pants. Otherwise I would risk leaving it lying around somewhere and forget where I left it. If I carried my gun in a murse there is no way I could be sure I wouldn't do the same thing. I can see myself laying the murse down somewhere and then going off and leaving it. Many, many, women have done this. They forget their purse somewhere and before they can remember where they left it some crook has absconded with it, stole all their valuables and deposited the purse in the nearest dumpster. Do you really want to risk leaving your firearm unattended in a public place where anybody and everybody can have access to it?
 
I sometimes use a messenger bag (Call it whatever you want). The bag is carried on my left side with the strap over my right shoulder. My CC firearm is carried at around 3-4 o'clock , behind my right hip.
The bag allows me to carry some essentials while out and about, without interfering with my firearm. Backpacks are a PITA for my type of carry.
AFA any negative input from my fellows, or the general public, I can take some good-natured ribbing, but don't suffer fools.
I'm not a proponent of off-body carry. Each to their own, I reckon.
 
When I am on elevators or when I am forced to walk on stairways I place my arm inside the bag but not holding the gun. If attacked in an elevator or on a narrow stairway the gun is not withdrawn, it is fired right through the bag. Nothing is faster in that type of situation.
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A few years back, some friends of mine helped me with some experiments that I later wrote up for SWAT magazine. We took purses out to the range – some purses with built in holsters, and some purses without built in holsters. We spent the day examining the features of various carry purses and other off body carry devices.

There were a half dozen of us, and all of us were experienced, competent shooters. Most of us worked as firearms instructors at the professional level through the Firearms Academy of Seattle.

One experiment we did involved shooting through the purse. First, everybody shot from the retention position, without a purse. Every single shooter there could easily stay within the A zone of the target and get very fast hits, very repeatably, very predictably. That established our goal. Then I gave everybody a purse, including myself. One by one, we shot through the purses at the same distance.

We were shocked at the results.

Several of the shooters could not hit cardboard at arms length distance when shooting through the purse. This was bad, very very bad – because of course, these bags had nothing in them at all. In real life, they would be other things inside the bag that could deflect a bullet when it was launched. This is in addition to the fact that shooting through the bag really requires you to carry a revolver rather them the more common semi auto. And in three cases, we had revolvers get jammed and refused to fire more than a single shot, because the exposed hammer got caught in the lining.

Let me add, too, that in another test, we discovered that a bag with an internal holster would allow you to get the gun completely out of the purse at exactly the same speed – or maybe even a little faster – than simply getting your gun out of the holster without getting it out of the purse. Of course it had to come out of the holster in order to get your finger on the trigger in the first place. We found that was very little difference in the speed between drawing it all the way versus drawing it partway. In other words, shooting through the purse was not going to save nearly as much time as one would envision. Getting your hand on the gun in advance and being prepared to draw, was where we found the most significant time savings.

It is more than likely that repeated practice shooting through a purse would enable somebody to become skilled enough at it to bet their life on it. But I know nobody, personally, who would be willing to buy and then destroy upwards of 200 purses in order to achieve that level of skill, or who would continue destroying say, 10 purses a month, for the rest of their lives, to maintain that skill.

Shooting through the bag is not part of my personal self-defense plans.

pax
 
I've used a lot of stuff over the years to carry a bunch of junk. Briefcase, issue backpack, fanny pack, and lately, hydration bag. The last I picked up cheap from DAV because it had a reflective thermal liner. Nice for carrying necessary daily drugs, and lunch, too.

I've had numerous people go thru my bag when it's at my workstation, whether I'm there or not. Men who would never touch a woman's purse will ransack another guy's bag like there's no element of privacy whatsoever.

I've considered borrowing a few feminine items just to shake them up. Sanitary liners do make good self adhesive sweat bands, ya know.

Therefore, I would never use off body carry for a firearm. And considering the work environment I am subjected to, I can't sling a man bag around all day - but I do need to have a flashlight, pocketknife, cell phone, wallet, hankerchief, pens, notebook, etc on me during my work shift.

I use a very old fashioned concept, I wear clothing with pockets, and I wear only the ones that will fit properly for an active work day. As opposed to some of my customers who wear athletic wear supersized for their physique and who leave everything out in the car, or who carry it all in their hands and dump it on the counter only to call an hour later looking for the junk they lost. We don't have it, there's not even enough to start a lost and found box.

At this point I leave the hydration pack open with the contents displayed - cashews and sugar substitute - to satisfy the curious who would otherwise paw thru it behind my back.

Adding a firearm to the mix is likely not a good idea - especially if the situation demands concealment and even any mention of the issue. Since by overhearing my coworkers know I might be licensed to carry, I'm not going to give them much reason to think it might be in a unattended pack at the back of the building, at my desk, or even in my car - like, parking it on the street just over the property line.

Every situation is different.
 
>>Let me add, too, that in another test, we discovered that a bag with an internal holster would allow you to get the gun completely out of the purse at exactly the same speed – or maybe even a little faster – than simply getting your gun out of the holster without getting it out of the purse. Of course it had to come out of the holster in order to get your finger on the trigger in the first place. We found that was very little difference in the speed between drawing it all the way versus drawing it partway. In other words, shooting through the purse was not going to save nearly as much time as one would envision. Getting your hand on the gun in advance and being prepared to draw, was where we found the most significant time savings.<<

Facing someone with a knife in an elevator will not leave time to draw from the bag. I have done some practice shooting from a pocket in a rain coat. First one or two shots produces a hole large enough to push the gun through for normal aiming. That might not happen with the bag.

Practice is the key but it doesn't have to be from inside a bag. This is more or less hip shooting. The key is to always grip the gun the same so it is pointed properly to begin with. That is also important when drawing from a holster but a little less so because of the use of the sights. The gun in the bag technique is better than hip shooting because the whole bag can be pointed. It doesn't have to be static. Admittedly this is not ideal. It is a desperation measure.

Bill
 
I have done some practice shooting from a pocket in a rain coat. First one or two shots produces a hole large enough to push the gun through for normal aiming. That might not happen with the bag.
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It mostly does not.

The semi-auto, of course, gives you only one shot. That's a known given.

The revolver with an exposed hammer is as likely to jam as not -- entangled in the liner.

The revolver without an exposed hammer mostly does not jam, and is the only gun where you could reasonably expect to get a second shot if things go well for you.

Practice is the key but it doesn't have to be from inside a bag. This is more or less hip shooting.
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Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I pointed out that all of my participants were experienced, competent shooters who were and are well-trained and well-able to get reliable, solid hits from the hip retention position.

Again, suit yourself. But our experience with multiple tests showed me that if you're going to bet your life on being able to get solid hits from inside a bag, it's a skill you need to practice repeatedly ... from inside the bag.

pax
 
What is the alternative? If the alternative is to draw from any kind of concealment, it won't work. Not enough time in an elevator or in a stairway. In fact some of this might entail shooting at contact distance with the bag against the assailant's body. That increases the chances of a hit dramatically.

Sure, shooting from inside the bag is not ideal, but hits are not impossible. The problem is one of indexing. The gun has to sit in the hand properly and has to be positioned against the same spot in the bag each time. The gun and the bag are pushed forward toward the target. If nothing else the flash and bang in a confined area might save your life.

Bill
 
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Bill,

Again, with a proper bag that includes a built in holster, you aren't getting your finger on the trigger until the gun is out of the holster anyway. By the time it's out of the holster, it's also out of the bag.

Also again, we did all our tests with an otherwise empty bag. When there are items inside the bag, accuracy will decline due to deflection. That's true even at close contact range.

pax
 
If we are lucky none of us well ever have to use this type of defensive tactic. I have analyzed the alternatives and have decided on the way I want to handle it. Others will agree with me or disagree and make their own decisions. My feeling is that this discussion has given people something to think about and then they will go ahead and evaluate their own risks and alternatives.

Bill
 
I have been using a Maxpedition Fatboy Versipack for CCW. The strap goes over my left shoulder and the bag sits below my waist at 3:00 o'clock.

One advantage I see with this set up is that when a situation goes to condition yellow I can discretely open the zipper and have my hand on my gun ready to go without telegraphing that I have a gun. It just looks like I am holding the bag against my body.
 
My thought would be to leave all that other stuff in the man bag and carry the pistol on my person. If I ever need a firearm, I need it NOW.. heck with fooling around with a bag to get a pistol. Just my opinion.
 
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I use several methods. If it is hot outside it's either pocket carry or Maxpedition bag. If I suit up it's owb. Personally I can't do an iwb holster.
 
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