Man arrested for virtual crime

You pay to play this game. In this game you can "earn" items that while not tangible outside the game, do have a real monetary value outside the game. Therefore you are earning money. Or winning money if you want to see it as gambling.

Now comes a guy who pretends that he is playing inside the context of the game rules, but he isn't, he is using a gizmo that is not alllowed within the context of the games rules. He takes your items that have monetary value, by virtue of using the gizmo, and he sells those items and realizes real world cash profits, at your expense. You could have realized those profits for yourself, may well have been planning to do so, but due to his lying and cheating your profits have been taken away.

Sounds like a crime to me. The fact that the crime originates in a virtual game world, and the fact that the victims are naive to be paying to play in that world, and the fact that other people are strange enough to pay cash for those virtual items, doesn't affect the core issue.

I would still like to know what he was actually charged with.
 
Maybe we should set up a government agency similar to the TSA to prevent electronic 'terrorism' in online gaming. Everyone should be happy then :rolleyes:
 
Now comes a guy who pretends that he is playing inside the context of the game rules, but he isn't, he is using a gizmo that is not alllowed within the context of the games rules.
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The game's rules do not have force of law. Please play again.

He takes your items that have monetary value, by virtue of using the gizmo, and he sells those items and realizes real world cash profits, at your expense. You could have realized those profits for yourself, may well have been planning to do so, but due to his lying and cheating your profits have been taken away.
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The item's having monetary value is irrelevant, because ordinary non-bot virtual theft within the game is not a crime.
 
The game's rules do not have force of law. Please play again.
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Then tell me why Casino games have teh force of law, on both sides. What makes cheating at Blackjack or Poker so much more deserving of attention under the law then an online game? Is it just that online games are seen as childish, and casino games are more adultish, theat they get protection?
 
Casino chips do not represent anything aside from their monetary value. Everyone in a casino realizes they are betting real money. Chips are used for convenience.

If someone started a virtual casino where the chips were not linked to cash, and some players started selling the poker chips on ebay, do you think cheating at that casino is theft, too? I'm not so sure. Suppose there's a contract that says all chips belong to the casino, and they may reclaim them at any time. "Stealing" a chip from another player is then not really theft, is it?

This game goes one step further; not only are the items not linked to hard currency, and not only do players never own the items, but in-game virtual theft of items is permitted and expected. A few people are whining to real-world law enforcement about one particular way items are stolen.

Part of the allure of the virtual world is that real-world crimes are legal in the game. If that feature is removed, even partially, what does the game become? It's no longer just a game, is it?
 
Part of the allure of the virtual world is that real-world crimes are legal in the game.
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Um. Yeah. You fail to realize that this isn't about what his bots were doing specifically. It doesn't matter if the smacktart was using the bots to automate beating people up for loot, or to automate crafting armor, or to automate harvesting gemstones from a mine. He was still breaking the TOS of the game, a legally binding contract.
 
He was still breaking the TOS of the game,
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Are you sure? Sources?

a legally binding contract.
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If so, civil law, not criminal law.

Then tell me why Casino games have teh force of law, on both sides. What makes cheating at Blackjack or Poker so much more deserving of attention under the law then an online game?
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In gambling, you are playing for real money and there is no pretense otherwise. In video games you might be playing, as someone else said a +10 goblinslayer sword. One item exists and has value while the other one is imaginary and has no value.

Another thing, gambling is very tightly regulated and closely watched. Casinos are required to have cameras record all angles of gaming tables and to keep video tapes from each camera for a certain length of time. Unless you want to have government force you to do the same, I wouldn't argue that video games=gambling.
 
There is no MMORPG in existence that does not frown on, outlaw, and punish the use of automated bots/scripts/macros/cheats/hacks.
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There you go then. Its the job of the software developer to enforce their own rules, not the government. Last time I checked, software developers are still not the arm of government that writes and passes laws.
 
In gambling, you are playing for real money and there is no pretense otherwise
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But if these things have value, is that not the same thing? Just because they are not directly linked to money, does not make them valabule to someone.

in-game virtual theft of items is permitted and expected
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Taking of other players chips is expected in a casino. Taking them within the rules laid out, that is.
 
I haven't played online games like this for a very, very long time, and certainly none I had to subscribe to play. But let me see if I understand the arguments here.

1. It is not wrong for me - as a legitimate player - to murder another player, loot his/her/its corpse and keep/use the loot, trade it in-game or sell it in real life.
2. It doesn't matter how long it took my victim to earn, purchase or find the loot if I take it lawfully.
3. Using an external program to control a character I own to ambush a legitimate character is considered cheating, and is wrong.
4. Thus, if I use such an external program to steal, what I am doing is wrong not because of the theft but because of the use of an external program.

The question is "Should the government intervene?"

I'd say no. It's a game. The perpetrator can be banned or sued by the game company if they're breaking the TOS they agreed to.

Here's another question, though. Let's say I create a bot that will specifically avoid other players but will automatically rack up points or money or items or whatever by killing AI controlled characters and completing missions or quests. Then I take these items and offer them for sale online, or simply give them to friends for free. Is this not equally and equivalently wrong and thus punishable by arrest?

After all, in both cases a bot is created to automatically perform an activity that players are allowed to perform. The fact that it affects other players whether adversely or positively is immaterial, is it not?
 
But if these things have value, is that not the same thing? Just because they are not directly linked to money, does not make them valabule to someone.
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People may ascribe value to them, but they exist only in a virtual game world where laws do not apply.

Whether you agree with that or not, I suspect that the EULA for the game states that items aren't owned by the players. (And how could they be? Since they only have value inside the game, granting ownership of items would be giving players an interest in the game servers, maybe the server hardware, etc.)

The "sale" of the game items is therefore highly questionable to begin with. That doesn't mean I want the government to ban sales of virtual items. The sale isn't really of the virtual items; the payment is for transfer of the item within the game, not for possession or ownership of the item.

I think I understand the similarity to gambling; in both cases the people involved are interested in certain items (virtual objects and poker chips), and in either case there are rules that dictate certain probabilities of gaining or losing those items. The items are to be exchanged for cash. Bots, like using a computer in a casino, alter the odds and give the cheater an unfair advantage, which ends up generating money.

If prosecutions like this one are allowed, that suggests that these online game worlds are similar to casinos. Maybe that's what they are, but that's not how I've thought of online games in the past.

What would be a model of a real-life casino that's as close to these games as possible? There would be a small monthly membership fee, electronic chips would be given to players based roughly on a combination of skill and time spent in the casino. Belonging of chips would be tracked by the casino. Players would go outside to arrange a transfer of chips for cash; then the seller would go back inside and somehow arrange to transfer the chips to the buyer.

I wonder why the game's EULA doesn't simply forbid cash sale of in-game items. That seems like the simplest solution, and I'm very surprised that it's not in use. Either it's not in the EULA, or nobody's using it as cause to sue professional virtual game item thieves.
 
I wonder why the game's EULA doesn't simply forbid cash sale of in-game items. That seems like the simplest solution, and I'm very surprised that it's not in use. Either it's not in the EULA, or nobody's using it as cause to sue professional virtual game item thieves.
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I certainly agree there.

I guess my problem is not so much this partiucular instance. I don't necessairialy think this was appropriate. What my problem is is that the problem the virtual world creates.

Just because an object is intangible, does not mean it doesn't hold value. Just because it isn't specifically linked to some dollar value, also doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

How things that have fluxuating value in real life are dealt with in thefts and such, I have no idea.

Just because the object was some sort of magical power in a game, doesn't make it any less deserving of prosecution than something you may find of value. Someone places value in that object, just because I wouldn't, doesn't mean it isn't valuable. I know people that would pay hundreds of dollars for trading cards that I would unknowingly use for kindling. Does that mean they have no value? No, it means that they have no value to me.

Basically, what I would like to see, is some sort of posession value in the virtual world, that parallels the real world.
 
Basically, what I would like to see, is some sort of posession value in the virtual world, that parallels the real world.
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Wouldn't it be reasonable for the game company to restrict or even outlaw all methods of transferring virtual property? Then you have a EULA which says that, in effect, you have no virtual property rights, but criminal law would say that you do. What happens then?

Maybe there is no line between virtual and real property. Most people store most of their cash with banks and brokerages, where it doesn't really exist -- there's not enough cash to go around if everyone liquidated their accounts. Maybe treatment of virtual online game property as real property will be an (unfortunate) consequence of real-world virtualization of money.
 
EULA's do state that you do not own the propert. SONY has tried to take people to court for selling in game items, but from what I've heard they have never been able to make anything stick. The people doing the selling simply say they aren't selling the item, they are selling the time it took them to get the particular item, and that the license of the item never leaves SONY's possession. It's definitely a tricky subject.
 
Who determines the real-world cash value of a "+10 sword of goblin slaying"? If it's worth ZERO to ME, he didn't steal anything. What if some wealthy geek claims he was willing to pay $35,000 for it? Suddenly it's grand theft??

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Any one want to buy +12 sword of Elvinkind? How about an automatic bowcaster that shoots at light speed and sucks the enemy into the 5th dimension? Do I need to be a class III to sell this item? How about a reproduction of that famous atari sword with jewels and all....Cheap.
How about a cursed gauntlet that fights by itself. It is made of unobtainium and is VERY rare. I put it up on Ebay with all the othere 'rare' stuff. Not including the steak I am eating right now of course. There is a sucker born every minute. P.T. Barnum

How DO you steal an imaginary item anyways? Is it documented on paper? What if I make a xerox and sell it again and again like Phil shortman? Is that illegaly making a weapon?
 
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