No there isn't. OP presented a scenario and asked how to handle it. Avoiding a possible situation by not being with the Black Friday masses at the mall is the obvious #1 choice which was presented before the OP elaborated and explained that his family was their. Now if we said they shouldn't have been their in the first place....well, then yeh hindsight comes into play.
Mall Shooting
- Thread starter hubris
- Start date
No there isn't. OP presented a scenario and asked how to handle it. Avoiding a possible situation by not being with the Black Friday masses at the mall is the obvious #1 choice which was presented before the OP elaborated and explained that his family was their. Now if we said they shouldn't have been their in the first place....well, then yeh hindsight comes into play.
Old Bill Dibble
New member
Well yeah. But it would not be the first time.
Occupational hazard for me. What other people do is what other people do.
While many, including me, would rather be publicly caned than fight the Black Friday crowds, many folks consider it a yearly tradition. There are many places people go that involve a higher level of risk; malls, sporting events, the theater, concerts, parades, fourth of July and other holiday celebrations, political events, to name a few. Smugly condemning folks for doing what they like to is something we in the gun community are used to. We should be careful not to do it to others.
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While the end result is not always ideal, I think the world would be a pretty lousy(er) place if everyone turned their back on altercations, violence, or confrontations. How many innocent lives have been saved by a complete stranger intervening? Quite a few I'd guess. I don't think turning one's back is the answer. Every situation is unique. Generalizations and assumptions should be tossed out the window.
Kevin Rohrer
New member
"Deaf" and "Double" among others had good advice. In answer to the OP, if the problem is outside, stay inside. If the problem is inside with you, leave if practible, or find solid cover away from the problem.
Also think outside the box if you need to exit. First floor stores in malls all have back doors they use for moving stuff in and out. Don't be shy about going in the back room and having a clerk tell you where it's located.
Also think outside the box if you need to exit. First floor stores in malls all have back doors they use for moving stuff in and out. Don't be shy about going in the back room and having a clerk tell you where it's located.
Best response is to..
determine where you are relation to "event",
Contact 911 and give accurate information, keep on line using earbuds with mic,
Do not "brandish" firearm, etc. keep it covered UNLESS in direct contact, then follow your training / inclination.
Maybe delay exiting to avoid "stampede" and possible hold open a viable exit and remain calm.
Let other's panic, you keep your cool.
Remember arriving LEO's are going to "Neutralize" armed persons.
No hard and fast rules, you are going play it as it develops.
determine where you are relation to "event",
Contact 911 and give accurate information, keep on line using earbuds with mic,
Do not "brandish" firearm, etc. keep it covered UNLESS in direct contact, then follow your training / inclination.
Maybe delay exiting to avoid "stampede" and possible hold open a viable exit and remain calm.
Let other's panic, you keep your cool.
Remember arriving LEO's are going to "Neutralize" armed persons.
No hard and fast rules, you are going play it as it develops.
If I may be so bold as to rephrase Dr. Meyer's point, it is nowhere close to true that the only mall shootings are on Black Friday. You can wait until Sunday, or December 23rd, or whenever, and there could still be a mall shooting. Or there could be a shooting wherever you decided you did want to go on Black Friday. On what day can you venture to the mall, or anywhere else, with an absolute assurance that there will be no violence? Avoiding areas of unrest and unsafe neighborhoods are one thing, but several posts think blaming victims for being at the mall when a gang incident occurs in the parking lot is not helpful advice, and I agree.
Double Naught Spy
New member
But you are never around for a mass shooting.
FireForged
New member
If I cannot determine the direction of the threat, I will simply walk to the nearest exit and leave. If I can tell where the threat is, I will move opposite that direction. Its always a good idea to know where the ground floor delivery corridors are in the mall, they are a quick exit if you need to get out fast.
Black Friday, the mall, it is smoke and mirrors. You are at a location, any location and crap happens. Have a plan, have a backup plan, be able to develop a plan on the run.
Always carry, carry enough gun. Master your carry gun. Are these times the times to carry a mouse gun? Know where other people special to you are located. Do not get involved in others altercations unless you do so in a decisive manner.
I am a retired LEO and my wife is disabled, I am not leaving her to hunt BG's, not my problem. If BG is close enough to be a threat or in my way to safety then I will end him/her/them.
Always carry, carry enough gun. Master your carry gun. Are these times the times to carry a mouse gun? Know where other people special to you are located. Do not get involved in others altercations unless you do so in a decisive manner.
I am a retired LEO and my wife is disabled, I am not leaving her to hunt BG's, not my problem. If BG is close enough to be a threat or in my way to safety then I will end him/her/them.
I carry a real gun. Glock 19 Gen 4, TruGlo fiber optic sights. I can shoot it.
Plus a G17 spare mag. Flash light, folding knife, always.
At the ripe old age of 81, my job is to look after my Wife, period.
If I have to shoot half a dozen youths, to protect my Wife, I will. But being at a Mall in the dark, not happening, we shop B/4 4 PM.
So be wide awake, Situation Awareness, period. Our second Marriage, has lasted 23 years, we know how to dovetail together.
No matter what we will survive!
Plus a G17 spare mag. Flash light, folding knife, always.
At the ripe old age of 81, my job is to look after my Wife, period.
If I have to shoot half a dozen youths, to protect my Wife, I will. But being at a Mall in the dark, not happening, we shop B/4 4 PM.
So be wide awake, Situation Awareness, period. Our second Marriage, has lasted 23 years, we know how to dovetail together.
No matter what we will survive!
turkeestalker
New member
Very well said sir.
It's been interesting to read all these responses. I'm just beginning to consider CCW. One thing I always wonder is, how much safer am I really, carrying a pistol?
Sometimes I wonder if I'd be safer with body armor
I look at the various scenarios that get reported, like the ISIS groupie at OSU with his car and his knife. I can clearly see how that would have ended differently had the cop not been right there when he launched his attack. What if the cop had been 2 minutes away instead of 30 seconds? What if, when the cop arrived on the scene, one or two CCW carriers had been there with pistols drawn, saving lives, and the cop thought THEY were the criminals? After all, the first announcement that went out across the campus was "ACTIVE SHOOTER" when the real attacker had a knife.
Or this mall scenario. How closely involved do I have to be in a potential attack before the pistol makes me any safer? In almost any scenario, I'd have to run and/or hide. Get my kids to safety any way I can. If it's a gang fight gone wrong (can it ever go right?) I need to get as far as possible from a stray bullet--I'm not their target. The heater on my hip won't keep me safe from stray gunfire.
Or some disgruntled whacko shows up in a strip mall with an AR and starts blasting in random directions at crowds. Am I going to circle back and tack down the gunman with my pistol?
It seems that the instances in which i would actually be able to use my pistol in self defense would be an extremely small % of the total possible scenarios.
Sometimes I wonder if I'd be safer with body armor
I look at the various scenarios that get reported, like the ISIS groupie at OSU with his car and his knife. I can clearly see how that would have ended differently had the cop not been right there when he launched his attack. What if the cop had been 2 minutes away instead of 30 seconds? What if, when the cop arrived on the scene, one or two CCW carriers had been there with pistols drawn, saving lives, and the cop thought THEY were the criminals? After all, the first announcement that went out across the campus was "ACTIVE SHOOTER" when the real attacker had a knife.
Or this mall scenario. How closely involved do I have to be in a potential attack before the pistol makes me any safer? In almost any scenario, I'd have to run and/or hide. Get my kids to safety any way I can. If it's a gang fight gone wrong (can it ever go right?) I need to get as far as possible from a stray bullet--I'm not their target. The heater on my hip won't keep me safe from stray gunfire.
Or some disgruntled whacko shows up in a strip mall with an AR and starts blasting in random directions at crowds. Am I going to circle back and tack down the gunman with my pistol?
It seems that the instances in which i would actually be able to use my pistol in self defense would be an extremely small % of the total possible scenarios.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
A firearm isn't a magical talisman that blocks all evil. It is just a tool. If you end up in a black swan event like a terror attack in a public place, it may not be the best option available; but it does give you options.
And, in at least several instances, people armed only with pistols have stopped or mitigated active shooters who were better armed. For example, in the Kenya attack, one guy entered the mall with a pistol and 13 rounds and ended up saving several dozen people by holding an exit open and teaming up with other armed civilians and off-duty police. There was also a case in Pennsylvania where a mentally disturbed person attempted to shoot up the hospital where he was being treated - it didn't get much press because his first victim (his doctor) drew a .32 and stopped the attack immediately after being shot.
That doesn't mean a pistol is always going to help (as Mark Wilson shows); but again, it gives you an extra option in a bad situation.
And, in at least several instances, people armed only with pistols have stopped or mitigated active shooters who were better armed. For example, in the Kenya attack, one guy entered the mall with a pistol and 13 rounds and ended up saving several dozen people by holding an exit open and teaming up with other armed civilians and off-duty police. There was also a case in Pennsylvania where a mentally disturbed person attempted to shoot up the hospital where he was being treated - it didn't get much press because his first victim (his doctor) drew a .32 and stopped the attack immediately after being shot.
That doesn't mean a pistol is always going to help (as Mark Wilson shows); but again, it gives you an extra option in a bad situation.
Double Naught Spy
New member
BR has some good points. A gun is only a tool. Whether or not it makes you safer falls completely into its application by you in a dangerous situation.
Carrying a gun does not make situations safer, though it may make you feel safer, and this is something many people actually confuse.
Carrying a gun isn't for everybody. Depending on your concerns and hesitance, it may not be for you at this time. That is okay. Great responsibility comes with carrying and deploying a gun in a dangerous situation. Deploying your gun may actually increase your personal level of risk. After all, there is a good chance that if you start shooting at the gunman(men), they will stop shooting at other people and try to shoot YOU.
BR mentioned Mark Wilson in Tyler - Dead. Then there was Byron Wilson who tried to stop a gunman on the streets of Houston earlier this year - shot through both legs, shoulder, and likely crippled. It should be pointed out that both of these people would have been safer had they not responded to the shooting. Both interjected themselves into shooting situations from locations of safety. Brendan (Dan) McKown was the CCW involved in the Tacoma mall shooting. He carried a gun for the express purpose of in case something like a mall shooting happened. He worked in a mall. It happened. His gun did not protect him and did not make him safer, but this is no fault of the gun. This was all his fault. Once the shooting was happening, he feared being shot by responding cops if he drew he gun and he reasoned that the gunman was too far away for him to hit. So Dan stood up from behind cover/concealment and yelled at the gunman who promptly shot Dan 5 times, leaving him as a cripple for life.
No, the gun does not make you safer. YOU make you safer. Whether or not you employ a gun in making you safer if your decision.
Carrying a gun does not make situations safer, though it may make you feel safer, and this is something many people actually confuse.
Carrying a gun isn't for everybody. Depending on your concerns and hesitance, it may not be for you at this time. That is okay. Great responsibility comes with carrying and deploying a gun in a dangerous situation. Deploying your gun may actually increase your personal level of risk. After all, there is a good chance that if you start shooting at the gunman(men), they will stop shooting at other people and try to shoot YOU.
BR mentioned Mark Wilson in Tyler - Dead. Then there was Byron Wilson who tried to stop a gunman on the streets of Houston earlier this year - shot through both legs, shoulder, and likely crippled. It should be pointed out that both of these people would have been safer had they not responded to the shooting. Both interjected themselves into shooting situations from locations of safety. Brendan (Dan) McKown was the CCW involved in the Tacoma mall shooting. He carried a gun for the express purpose of in case something like a mall shooting happened. He worked in a mall. It happened. His gun did not protect him and did not make him safer, but this is no fault of the gun. This was all his fault. Once the shooting was happening, he feared being shot by responding cops if he drew he gun and he reasoned that the gunman was too far away for him to hit. So Dan stood up from behind cover/concealment and yelled at the gunman who promptly shot Dan 5 times, leaving him as a cripple for life.
No, the gun does not make you safer. YOU make you safer. Whether or not you employ a gun in making you safer if your decision.
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Just amazing. The biggest problem in carrying a pistol, in my mind, can you hit a man sized target, past 25 yards. And the #2 problem? Being savvy enough to know if you should?
Or will you just make yourself a target? For the ones you do not see.
Our latest, newest Mall in Orlando. The Millennium Mall, I have been dragged through quite a few times, not keen on shopping. This Husband!
But I have noticed the plain doors, tucked away on the ground floor level (in fact took a trip down one passage one time) depending on the size of the attacking group (in this mythical Terrorist group) would blockers be placed outside?
Seems like you put your every day pistol, and spare magazine on when you head out from home, what happens whilst you are out?
Is not yet to be known, you will just have to cross that bridge when you get to it.
Or will you just make yourself a target? For the ones you do not see.
Our latest, newest Mall in Orlando. The Millennium Mall, I have been dragged through quite a few times, not keen on shopping. This Husband!
But I have noticed the plain doors, tucked away on the ground floor level (in fact took a trip down one passage one time) depending on the size of the attacking group (in this mythical Terrorist group) would blockers be placed outside?
Seems like you put your every day pistol, and spare magazine on when you head out from home, what happens whilst you are out?
Is not yet to be known, you will just have to cross that bridge when you get to it.
no one is safer carrying a pistol, the pistol just gives you more options to defend yourself. In any of the scenarios you mentioned a pistol most certainly could be what you need to defend yourself just as much as it may not be needed. The general consensus here is to remove yourself from any situation, but if you cant I'd rather have a pistol even if I don't need it.