Makarov 9x18mm: Effective cartridge for concealed carry, yes or no?

[DG45]

Gonif is entitled to his opinion and many people share it, but my guess is that before the bad old Soviet Union ever committed its military and secret police forces to the Makarov pistol and to the cartridge that was developed for it, they tested the combination extensively for effectiveness, and likely in ways that would leave today's western bleeding heart liberal types aghast.

PS: Chester I just looked that FEG SMC918 up, and that truly is an interesting looking gun. I hadn't known about that one. Is it small enough to be really concealable like a P3AT or LCP? That's what I'd really like to have. From the photos I saw, it looks like its a steel gun, so its probably heavier, but I'd love to be able to exchange my P3AT (380) for a 9x18mm. It has to really be concealable though.

What's the weight. How much do they cost?

 

[torpeau]

PS: Chester I just looked that FEG SMC918 up, and that truly is an interesting looking gun. I hadn't known about that one. Is it small enough to be really concealable like a P3AT or LCP? That's what I'd really like to have.

It's 1mm shorter than a P-64. With a steel frame, I think it's 15g heavier.

 

[Chesster]

DG45: They are no longer imported so you have to watch the used marked or auctions. I paid around 175-200 ea. for the pair I have. I also have an RK59 and the R61 which were the original state versions like the stock photo below. The original KBI inports of the SMC were alloy framed like the PA63s while they did import some all steel later. These guns are about the size of the Walther PPK but the grip frame is a bit like a shortened PPK/S or PP grip frame as it is not a wrap around grip on a skeleton frame. The weight is slightly less than the PPK I believe. Also, imports were brought in in .380 also and most had thumbrest grips that begged to be changed for handling and concealment purposes. I found old flat military grips for all of mine. It is a handful to shoot because of the alloy frame. They fit my PPK holster well. Wonderful little guns.

 

[MikeNice81]

I was eyeing a P-64 at a recent gun show. How does the P-83 compare in length and width?

I have heard that the P-83 has a much better trigger. Did they change the mag release? I wouldn't be to thrilled with having to use that release if I needed a fast reload.

 

[GONIF]

I knew I would stat a firestorm with that statement . Ask yourself if you would prefer a 9x18 to a 9mm para as your only pistol ? Ask yourself if you want to settle for less power if push came to shove ? The bottom line is the 9x18 is just not the best self defence round . Life is short ,why rush it with bad choices . Useing eastern europe and the soviets as an example of what is good is a joke . I'm not saying you can't defend yourself with a 9x18 MAK ,I'm saying you can do much better .

 

[Chesster]

I was eyeing a P-64 at a recent gun show. How does the P-83 compare in length and width?

I have heard that the P-83 has a much better trigger. Did they change the mag release? I wouldn't be to thrilled with having to use that release if I needed a fast reload.

The P-83 is about the same size and wt as the Makarov PM, only a little more blocky since it is made of sheet metal stampings. Trigger is nothing to write home about, about like most of these surplus "toys" for the old Eastern Bloc. Same type mag relase as the PM put a bit more difficult to handle than the PM release. Seems the Poles went about to make a Mak PM cheaper and cut the quality in the process of its redesign.

 

[torpeau]

I was eyeing a P-64 at a recent gun show.

I'm a big fan of the P-64 -- small, accurate and reliable. I've got 4 P-64s.

Bad DA trigger pull, but I think of it as a safety. SA is fine.

 

[MikeNice81]

I think Icould live with it, if I could find the 100+gr HPs. In every test I have seen the 95gr HPs penetrate less than 9 inches. The 115gr Brown Bear HP made 12 inches easily.

Is this stuff available any where? I checked and all I see is 95gr or 94gr HPs.

Torpeau, you can get the springs switched out in the P-64 and correct some of the trigger issues, right?

 

[torpeau]

I think Icould live with it, if I could find the 100+gr HPs. In every test I have seen the 95gr HPs penetrate less than 9 inches. The 115gr Brown Bear HP made 12 inches easily.

Torpeau, you can get the springs switched out in the P-64 and correct some of the trigger issues, right?

Those in the know do not recommend 100+gr ammo. I have never used it in mine.

Many people choose to replace the springs to make the DA trigger pull better. Many don't mess with it. I don't.

 

[gc70]

Ask yourself if you want to settle for less power if push came to shove ?

Why carry an anemic .45 when you could have a .500 S&W Magnum?

Folks carry what they think they need to get the job done. YMMV

 

[Hairbag]

I have the P64 as well. I have to say I was not expecting much. I swapped out the recoil spring for a heavier one and installed a lighter main spring and took her to the range. I was pretty impressed with the accuracy. The recoil was no where near as bad as some made it out to be. I know the heavy recoil spring must have helped with that. The D/A is still alittle heavy but I prefer it that way. I think of it as a walther ppk with spunk.

 

[raftman]

I knew I would stat a firestorm with that statement . Ask yourself if you would prefer a 9x18 to a 9mm para as your only pistol ? Ask yourself if you want to settle for less power if push came to shove ? The bottom line is the 9x18 is just not the best self defence round .

No one ever alleged that it is the best, and the OP didn't ask whether or not it was the best. Just whether or not it could get the job done, if need ever arose. 9x19 isn't the most effective round either, neither is .45acp. Can you come up with any actual evidence-based arguments that 9x18 is inadequate?

Life is short ,why rush it with bad choices .

How did you get the job of deciding what is good and what is bad?

Useing eastern europe and the soviets as an example of what is good is a joke .

Yeah... what do they know about making guns? you know... aside from designing some of the most successful firearms in the history of modern warfare and all. Sure, the former Eastern Bloc had some seriously bad consumer goods, but that's largely because their command economies made it so they didn't have to compete with foreign manufacturers. The Ladas, Trabants, etc didn't have to be better than BMW's because their consumers didn't have the option of getting a BMW. Their firearms, on the other hand, did have to compete with the rest of the world, and thus did result in effective designs. There's really no denying that the 9x18's do tend to be pretty darn reliable and accurate, for example.

Furthemore, non-Eastern Bloc militaries and police have used (and odds are still do use) "weaker" pistols than the 9x18, such the .380 or even .32acp.

I'm not saying you can't defend yourself with a 9x18 MAK ,I'm saying you can do much better .

You can also do much worse.

 

[Catfishman]

Furthemore, non-Eastern Bloc militaries and police have used (and odds are still do use) "weaker" pistols than the 9x18, such the .380 or even .32acp.

Is a 9x18 really "stronger" than a .380. I know it should be, but is it.

 

[raftman]

Is a 9x18 really "stronger" than a .380. I know it should be, but is it.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that strange and mis-punctuated question, but given that the 9x18 is generally a little faster, a little heavier, and a makes a slightly bigger hole too, it is indeed "stronger."

Different sources have varying data, but some suggest even the hottest .380 loads don't match any 9x18 loads.

 

[DG45]

I don't think there's a great difference, but there is a difference and it's generally in the 9x18mm Makarov cartridges favor.

If you've ever noticed, its hard to find head-to-head comparisons of these cartridges on a true apples-to-apples basis; ie., a comparison of the same bullet weight in each cartridge; when fired from the same barrel length, with all else being equal. What you generally see instead is a persimmons - to - kumquats type comparison, ie., exotic ammo made by different manufacturers being fired from different barrel lengths, and often with new commercial 380 barrels being used in the comparison vs. 40 year old miltary surplus Makarov (or Brand X) barrels

The closest thing to a real apples-to-apples camparison I've seen are the stats provided by Sellier & Belliot for their 95 grain FMJ 9x18mm Makarov cartridges and their 92 grain FMJ 380 auto cartridges. They report the muzzle velocity of their slightly heavier Mak FMJ bullet as 1017 fps, vs. a 990 fps muzzle velocity for their slighty lighter 380 FMJ bullet. We know the Mak has a slightly (actually miniscule) larger diameter bullet too; and maybe its an optical illusion, but to my naked eye, the Mak bullet looks blunter, which would be another advantage if true. So, heavier, faster, and maybe blunter equals clear advantage to the 9mm Makarov. The S&B 380 ammo from one on- line supplier sells regularly for $22.12 for a box of 50. Their 9x18 MM Mak ammo goes regularly for $17. 83. Another advantage to the Mak (although right now both calibers are being advertised by this seller for $14.99).

NOTE: You can buy 380 auto +P ammo if you choose to although a lot of the featherweight guns made to shoot 380 will probably not stand up to +P, even if the shooters of those guns can stand shooting it (which is questionable). But you might call that an advantage for 380, because as far as I know, nobody is yet making +P ammo for the 9x18mm Mak, but how long can it be before they do?

 

[denfoote]

I carried This East German Makarov for years.
I had no personal worries about whether the round would get the job done or not.

In fact, the solitary time I had to draw a weapon in defense of my house, that Makarov was in my hand!!!

The only reason I don't carry it regularly is that I became a Mak collector.

 

[gb_in_ga]

IIRC, the 9x18 Mak was intended to be an upsized, "improved" 9x17, the point was to make a round that pushed the envelope of what could be chambered in lower cost, Walther PP style blowback design handguns. And it does that pretty well. And that's how I think of it: An improved .380. If you feed it with modern design SD ammo and do your part, it'll do its part.

That said, no, it isn't a 9x19. It wasn't intended to be the commie counterpart of the 9x19. Higher pressure, more intense rounds like the 9x19 require more complicated, more expensive to manufacture locking mechanisms (unless you greatly increase the slide mass, like Hi-Point does, and several SMGs have done as well). And the Commies were aiming at something cheap and easy to produce.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that strange and mis-punctuated question, but given that the 9x18 is generally a little faster, a little heavier, and a makes a slightly bigger hole too, it is indeed "stronger."

Different sources have varying data, but some suggest even the hottest .380 loads don't match any 9x18 loads.

Yep. That's a pretty good summation of it. But the difference between a .380 and a 9x18 Mak isn't nearly as marked as the difference between a 9x18 Mak and a 9x19 Parabellum. The 9x18 Mak isn't midway between the 2, it is on the side of the .380.

 

[Catfishman]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that strange and mis-punctuated question, but given that the 9x18 is generally a little faster, a little heavier, and a makes a slightly bigger hole too, it is indeed "stronger."

Different sources have varying data, but some suggest even the hottest .380 loads don't match any 9x18 loads.

I'm 100% sure that you know exactly what I meant. Sorry about the poor punctuation.

Thanks DG45. I asked the question because I didn't know the answer. Now I know.

Looks like the 9x18 is slightly more powerful, with the possible exception of .380 +P ammo.

 

[JQP]

The poll results are pretty amazing.

I am beginning to understand why my FFL guy bought his Makarov on a whim, and now carries it as his EDC.

This is a guy who can afford to carry and can access and procure any handgun he wishes.

 

[Dr_2_B]

I voted 'yes' but I don't choose to carry it because I prefer something more powerful. On the other hand, I love love love my Makarov.