Magic Bullets

As to best bullet, against Human opposition where I am in S. Texas a prefragmented bullet would be good due to the fact that most of the time the guy you are facing is in shirt sleaves or a light jacket, but if you are in say abaline or worse yet buffalo NY. the guy may be wearing padded armor just to keep from freezing to death. My point is that there is no single soluting but if I had to carry save life and limb i would probably go with somting VERY tried and true like hydro-shoks (but my Makarov has Fiochi Hard ball in it) but as has been said before shot placment is a priority, and REPLACABILTY(sp) is nice also i.e. 3 124g .38 special WC in the upper chest are probably just as good as any think else.
 
Kodiac,
Hey no offense taken. Like you said its hard to tell tone of voice and inflection in a post. No apology is necessary, friend, but thanks for extending one. I think my distrust of fragmented is more my hang-up than anything else. I just try to pick a good, proven round(like the Hydra-Shock) that would perform under most circumstances. From hot summer nights to -20 below. If I was to work a state fair, or a youth dance, where its guarrenteed to be wall-to-wall people, then I'd take a second look at fragmented rounds. They may, at least, ease my fears of over penetration, realistic or not. One thing is for sure: If your going to carry a weapon into harm's way, you better know that weapon and what its capable of, and you better know what the load your carrying is capable of doing, and you'd better be confident in both. Gee. I guess thats three things. Whatever. Proper shot placement, proper training with your weapon and the load you'll be carrying is paramount(IMHO) to gain the confidence needed to walk away from a gunfight (as opposed to being dragged away). Just my opinion,
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o1paw
 
Hey, no offense meant to leo's. I just expect to escape by leaving the scene without having to worry about filing a report and carting the bad guys away. LEO's job is just tougher and more dangerous than I expect in my life. (Although the dream of being on a tactical team is there!)

The Triton sounds great, but I can't find it anywhere. Anybody know a good place to order them?
 
While I concede that the LEOs have to deal with scummies regularly as part of the job, a leathal threat is a leathal threat. The best line I've heard here is that "if they're worth shooting, they're worth shooting twice." As Harry Homeowner, I'm sticking with quality, name-brand JHPs (I like HydraShoks and STHPs)and will keep shooting until the threat is neutralized, that is, down and lying perfectly still. My house is brick over block and we have no kids, so I'm not real concerned about over-penetration. As far as shooting thru barriers goes, in the event of a break-in when I'm not there, I've trained my wife to lock herself in the bedroom, get the SIG from the gunvault by the bed, and dial 911. If someone tried to breech the door, she's to yell "I've got a gun" & if they don't stop, to put a couple rounds thru the door. I figure if they know you're armed and keep coming, you've got to do it to 'em lest they do it to you, no mercy in the house. M2

[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited 10-23-98).]
 
Hey, in the movie Replacement Killers the hero guy placed on the table a single round with the targets name ingraved on it.
That was very cool. And fitting here, since the most "magic bullet" is the one that has your targets (or yours) name on it.
Just a thought.

Veyr cool movie too. Even though I do advocate throwing away berettas (kidding) that guy threw away, like DOZENS. Oh, and used one as a cane to help stand back up...
 
M2,
Your home defence tactics sound very similar to ours, but ours gets a little complicated. Our house is a tactical nightmare. The kid's rooms are on the oposite side of the house from ours, with a wide open "great room" effect in between. If she or I awaken during the night to someone in the house, she gets her P-228 and calls 911, I grab the P-220 clear the house. As she's talking to the operator she would be backing me up. In the state of WA, just being in someone elses house is justifiable for the homeowner to use deadly force. So I've made a decision that, when encountering strangers in my own home, to treat them as hostiles. No warnings, no "put you hands up" no "I've got a gun". Just BANG and move quickly to the next target. To me, the way our house is designed, its imperative to get to the boy's rooms as quickly as I possibly can. It's good to hear you and your wife talk about things like this and formulate a tactical plan. Thats very important. I see nothing wrong with the plan you both have agreed upon, sounds pretty solid. I dont know where she stands if theres someone outside the room, just make sure she's not directly in front of the door. I'd hate to hear she took some 00 buck through the door when she states she's got a gun. It has been known to happen, but most of the time the bad guys skin out real quick when they hear the word "gun". I've heard the audible sound of the slide being worked or the action of a pump shotgun will get the same results
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You and your wife take care,
o1paw
 
Kodiac,
Isnt Replacment Killers a WOO film? I've been wanting to see it but havent as yet. If its from WOO, I'll bet it doesnt slow down for a minute! That guy is incredible when it comes to firefights. An action-movie lovers utopia. The first question I ask my wife when she askes if I'm interested in a certain movie is; "Does anyone get shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, or blown up?" She's learned by now if it doesnt fit into the above criteria, well......... she doent even ask.
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o1paw
 
Amen, olpaw, chance favors the prepared mind. The drill is to make the announcement off angled from the door & quickly move over and get low looking over the bed. Our door is at the end of the hall, so if whe stitches a couple across the door 3' high there's a good chance they'll get the hint. Our plan is similar to yours when I'm home, I take point, she calls the cavalry and backs me up. I must admit, I have mixed feelings about announcing anything and giving away my position, but my overall objective is to get them to leave, if they do it hastily and under their own power, so much the better, but I hope it never comes to that, one way or the other. I read the VA Gun Owner's Guide as part of a CCW class I just took, and I believe VA feels the same way about intruders as WA (Kodiac?), but like you, I assume that if they're there uninvited, their intentions are not friendly and I would legitimately be in fear for my life and safety of my family and act accordingly. BTW, I agree with you that nothing motivates a dweeb to beat feet like the sound of a pump-gun chambering a round, but in tight quarters, a pistol makes more sense for us (seems we have simialr tastes, she takes the 228, I go with the 226 or Cougar .45). One last thought, we keep the cell phone in the bedroom in case the land line gets cut - Take care, M2

[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited 10-23-98).]

[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited 10-23-98).]
 
I read an article by Masaad Ayoob about a month ago in which he gave names, locations, and descriptions of about 6 incidents where innocent people had been hit by bullets which had exited the primary target (bad guy). It has, does, and will continue to happen. You're free to take this as heresay because I can't quote the magazine name or issue it came from.
 
Hmmm. Well, if Mas said it, I guess I'll have to file it along with his pronouncement that the 10mm has "Failed on the Street".
Thanks, Steve.
Rich
 
M2,
The cell phone in the bedroom is an excellent idea (too bad I didnt think of it
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) I think we'll start doing that tonight. Also, if your landline's cut, you pretty much know they dont intend to leave any witnesses. Your also right about the scattergun in tight places. I guess I was thinking of my own floor plan where a good 12 guage would be devistating.
Stay safe,
o1paw
 
A little trick on the cell phone thing. Pick up a cheapie phone with AC Plug in and Charger. Ask your local phone hack to "clone" your existing number into the phone. Leave it in your safe room only for emergency use. That way it will always be available without the extra monthly charge.

I'm told that cloning is not quite "kosher", but I hardly think Ma Bell would press charges for a 911 call.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-23-98).]
 
o1paw, I wasn't thinking that gruesome(but ya nevern know), but was figuring that a cut phone line definitely keeps one from summoning aid, or if you have a burglar/fire alarm that dials out, it doesn't work anymore, either. We live inside the beltway in a small enough neighborhood (houses are only 25-35 feet apart) where a ruckus would draw alot of attention. Among my neigbors are a retired Fairfax County detective, a Secret Service agent, a CIA agent, and a couple of well armed good ol' boys. We're all acquainted and look out for each other (unusual in this day of suburban annonimity), but like I said, chance favors the prepared mind, and I believe that our safety is, first and foremost, our responsibility. Take care, M2
PS - that's a good hint on the cloned phone, Rich, but I had Cellular One do it, and they charge me $18/mo. Doh!!

[This message has been edited by Mike in VA (edited 10-23-98).]
 
The one thing about Virginia Law - When the cops get there... You should be ready to articulate the reasons for use of deadly force, even in your home. This will make it easier for the Commonwealths attorny office to decide if he /she wants wants to press charges on you. If it sounds logical (Hey, I felt threatened) VA may just let it slide at that. But I dont think there is a blanket polocy as in WA.

Paw, Sounds like a tough sit-rep on your home layout. I too have a similar lay out. ONE WORD: "MAGSAFE"
I wouldn't want a round going through a wall and into my son's room. That though alon has put the AR into the second string and the HK "Ready to Rock" close at hand, yet safe from my 3 boys.
 
Kodiac,
I have thought about over penetrating into one of my boy's rooms if I had to shoot a perp in the house, and that would be the only time I would feel comfortable with that ammo. Like I mentioned earlier, there is a definate tactical advantage at times with ammo like that. I did get some glazers for the wife's P-228, but Magsafe's are better, right? At least there's more than one wall or door between the great room and either of the boy's rooms. But I've no doubt my 230gr Hydra Shocks would punch right through if I didnt catch the bad guys in the great room. I know its hard to visualize without knowing the floor plan. Our bedroom is on one side of the house, theirs is on the other. In-between is the great room which encompasses the dining area and the living room. The kitchen is in between that and the boy's rooms. So if I confronted someone in the great room I wouldnt be too concerned, but If Mr Murphy is conducting the tour and I cant catch them in the great room, then I'd definately be worried.
01paw
 
Well, I am really sorry that I had to sit this one out for a few days boys, but I'm back in.. After scanning the multitode of postalage on this topic I have the folowing to add:

NAD: I use the terms LEO and Civilian to differentiate a condition, not as a level of status. I go out almost everday in the condition of "Civilian" only when on duty am I in the condition of LEO. Those two states of being are regarded very differently by potential attackers and the legal system. No offense was/is intended in my continued differentiation. (is that a word?)

O1paw- I agree that the appearance of the patrol car sends 90 out of hundred perps running. 9 of the other 10 drop to the ground and realize how stupid they have just been, it is that other guy that I am wearing a bullet proof vest for. If I perceive the need to wear a vest, I also perceive a need to carry "more powerful" ammo. I choose to define "more powerful" by meaning deepeer penetrating most of the time.
 
Rob,
I agree with you totally. What I'm asking is, why is it ok for a LEO, in uniform, with a patrol car and a radio, bullet proof vest, and a high quality weapon, to carry "more powerful" deeper penetrating rounds than the poor schmuck that gets held up on his way to the grocery store? What TACTICAL difference is there? When it comes down to mano-e-mano, LEO vs scumbag or citizen vs scumbag, shouldnt the civilian have just as good a chance, with the best, most effective, powerful round in his chosen caliber? Many people on this topic say that civilians wont have to shoot through barriers or light cover. How do they know what I may run into on the street? Can they guarrentee that? I just talked with a friend that still lives in my home town-there were 2 carjackings and a drive-by LAST WEEK. I'm sorry fellas but if I get caught in the middle of something like that, I'm going to want the most effective round I can stuff in my pistol, wouldnt you as a civilian? I just dont get the difference, sorry.
Take care and stay safe, bud,
01paw
 
The best bullet is the one in the gun when you need to use it. Most LEO only stuff is available at gun shows If you want to pay the price -- which will be too high, and not worth it. A OSS requires good hit. Better yet, several good hits. Any good quality ammo that is proofed in your gun should do fine. For inside house/apartment, where penetration of walls could be a problem, Glaser Silver would be my choice, and be prepared to deliver a head shot ( failure drill ).

LEOs continue to confuse/use the word 'civilian'. I am not a civilian, I am a citizen. The LEO is a citizen and/or a civilian. A civilian, according to Webster -- not belonging to the armed forces, not a member of the armed forces. Members of the armed forces are subject to the UCMJ. LEOs are not.

LEOs would be well advised to stop acting like a street gang, and start acting like citizens. GLV
 
Well here`s a topic that hasn`t been beaten to death.
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I believe there are some differences between the needs of LEOs and non-LEOs (note I didn`t say civilians cuz LEOs are too). It`s not a question of picking the "best" ammo,there are different "bests" for different circumstances. A LEO has a higher probability of having to shoot through auto glass and metal,walls,doors etc. (as in barricaded criminals). Under many of these circumstances a CCW holder can simply walk (or RUN!) away. LEOs don`t always have that option,therefore it can make sense for them to trade some raw stopping ability for tactical penetration. CCW holders don`t have to be *as* concerned about those things so they can go for the most stopping power. Personally I lean toward light fast JHP`s for CCW. I`m currently carrying Triton Quickshoks because I believe they give me a very small edge. BTW I would feel just as well armed with any good JHP of appropriate weight,as this magic bullet stuff really is just splitting straws IMO. As we all know shot placement and tactics are still king. Marcus
 
o1paw- I just realized with your last post that you may be misunderstanding me, I *DO NOT* in any way, under any circumstance think that an LEO should have access to any weapon, vest, bullet, car, radio, deodorant, or donut that a non-LEO/civilian/citizen/regular-Joe has access to. That would violate everything I do believe.

All I was saying is that _I_ prefer to carry a stouter round/firearm when on duty than I would carry when not on duty. Often, I carry the same for both, but there are certain things (eg- Tomcat with Silvertips) that I would not consider adequate for duty that I do consider adequate for self defense.
 
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