Magic Bullets

K

Kodiac

New member
There are many clever designs of bullets out there. My favorite is the Hydra-Shok. I would love to see Cor-Bon use those bullets in there wonderful loads. However... it seems that the Hydra-Shok is less effective when it goes faster. Looking at the .45 ACP you see up at the top, the 230grain HS load. Then when you look down the list (being arranged in order per %OSS) the 185grain +P load being much less effective. Hmmm. If the heavy, slower loads are better... in .40 the 165grain is down near the bottom while the 135+P is at the very top(in CORBON loadings). What is the deal here? Maybe the key is expansion? Well, GOLD DOTs expand the best on average - yet remain only average in performance. Golden Sabers have the most frightening expansion when they want to expand at all (they tend clog and ball up)... yet are less accurate and below OSS% that of the Hydra-Shok. Black Talons were amazing until they got defanged, the new kinder - gentler SXTs are just that. My favorite loads are MAGSAFES in any caliber... but forget about trying to hit a target hiding behind a windshield (that goes for most pistols but thats a whole other thread topic). Fragmenting bullets are devistating effective against meat and bone... but not against the barrier that meat his ducking behind. Where do we find the most bullet magic?
*Contest Entry*

[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 10-23-98).]
 
Okay, first, let me be th one to say (since it is a required statement in this thread) "shot placement is infinitly more important that waht bullet you are using." whew..got that out of the way,

Next, let me say that I put a certain amount of faith in all ot he modern hollowpoint designs. In no particular order I would rely on these without thinking twice: SXT, Golden Sabre, XTP, Hydra-shok, gold dot, starfire, adn silvertips. I would add to that list all of the various loads made by Cor-Bon with "old fashioned" HPs.
Of course, I have carried Blaser Safety Slugs quite a lot, almost always with something with a little more 'umph' waiting towards the bottom of the magazine. That is my version of the magiz bullet, the "magic magazine" I'll throw GS, HS, CB, Blasers, and maybe evena round or two of ball in a magzine sometimes. I've sorta gotten away from that, but when I was doing it a lot I figured I was covering all of the bases.

I use Magsafes in .25, first round only, I can't find a .25 that'll feed them reliably, followed by those winchester rounds with the BB in the tip.

I guess I'm too cynical to believe in any one bullet being all that much better than the average.
 
I was placing bets on who would be the first to point out "shot placement" - I won.

I had a magazine combo I used to use as well.
It was alternating Cor-Bons and Magsafes. I figured I usually double tap my HK any ways... might as well hit them with both! My academy instructor always said, "Any one worth shooting is worth twice..." then he would add "or more..."
Some bullet designs seem to be better at certain aspects than others... showing that it would be ideal to know the shot you take and load for that. Again, a working Crystal Ball would be nice.
 
HA!. That's only because you know I work at my computer and post all day long..... it took me 90 minutes to get ot it.
The real question is who between the two us will get to something first...

The qeustion that often comes up with some of my LEO associates (we don't have but one option when it comes to handgun bullet, so we use what they are given)is Slugs or Buckshot?

That is why I love my Benelli, you can eject a round without chambering another one and drop in the slug, #4, Buckshot whatever. No it is not he answer to a quick gunfight, but poopping a slug out of the side saddle and dropping it into the chamber is still faster than having to rack the slide to make room in the tube, insert the slug and then rack it again to chamber the round you want to use.

As far as pistols go, I've known some people who carry an extra mag with FMJ, "just in case."

I stagger soft points and FMJ 2 to 1 in my AR mags.
 
Hmmm. I think that different types of handgun ammo has its own use, tactically speaking. Most jhp's from major manufacturers will do what they're designed to do; expand and penatrate. Some penatrate a little better than others, reaching the vitals in most cases. Ball ammo is used when maximum penatration is needed and over penatration is not a bad thing, and functional reliability is most important. Fragmented ammo is designed when over penatration would be catastrofic, such as jet fusalages, county fairs, youth dances, excetera, where the collateral damage of over penatration is not acceptable. I never stagger my magazines, I dont see much of a tactical advantage. If I've got the deep penatrators at the bottom of my mag and I need them, what am I to do? I'm not going to shoot off all my ammo to get to them. The same thing with every other one. If you've got to shoot through a car door, lets say, and you stagger mag-safes with jhp's, that means that 1 out of every 3 rounds fired will not effect the target. That might not seem like much of a big deal until the bad guy's behind that car door returning fire and fractions of seconds count. I just decide before I go out what kind of place am I going to, how many people there may be, etc. For the most part, for me, that means a good jhp. As far as why some heavy, slow bullets rate higher than some light, fast ones and vice-versa, all I can really offer is that each shooting is different, each human body is different. Too many variables for those OSS% to be 100% correct. They are, however, a good reference point to start figuring out what works and what doesnt. I've always wanted to see a study on abysmal failiures to stop so that we would know which ammo NOT to use. What do you guys think?
o1paw
 
o1paw-

I have seen people justify the use of a less effective cartrige by saying the even a .375 H&H does not always work so then his "favorite" is ok.

But a review of failures would be intertesting even if no more conclusive than the One Shot Stop statistics.

Rich Lucibella has strong opinions on this topic-- Rich??

Noel
 
Noel,
I realize that the failure to stop study wouldnt be any more conclusive than the OSS, but if both studies were done independantly of one another, it would be just that much more information avaliable to us. I mean, If joe shooter looks up the magsafe defender +p+ and sees "it stops 92% of the time one-shot-stops" and goes and gets that and carries it and has to shoot through a car door or glass........well, you see what I'm getting at. The percentile isnt the end-all of wound ballistics. I'm fairly certain that one shot of the above said ammo could put someone built like me down(or can it?) but it would work completely different if I was wacked out on heroin for the last 3 days or I weighed 300+ lbs. or both. As I stated earlier, its a good bit of information to have, but I think its a referance point, not the gospel some people believe make it out to be. If we, as shooters had both a study of what seems to work, and what seems not to work, both completely independant of each other, we could cross reference the two and figure things out on our own.
What do you guys think?
o1paw
 
Noel-
Thanks for the invite. I'm hardly the ammunition expert around here, but you're right; I do have very strong opinions on the subject.

To wit, I opine that all defensive handgun rounds are anemic fight stoppers when compared to, for instance, baseball bats and fighting sized knives. This doesn't mean that I would choose to bring a knife to a gunfight; just that the OSS controversy is a search for the Holy Grail.

I don't believe in the dangers of "overpenetration" from defensive handgun calibers as I can't remember the last time I read of an A Zone hit continuing thru the perp to take out an innocent. Special circumstances have been pointed out, such as in an airplane...though I even wonder about these. Any round capable of stopping a hijacker, should be capable of damaging an aircraft fuselage.

I don't believe in frangibles as the resulting loss of penetration is dangerous to your health. I don't believe in light, fast rounds for the same reason.

I do believe in choosing the hottest caliber you can shoot well and choosing a good hollowpoint or FMJ (most of the known makers come to mind) in the weight range it was designed for: eg: 180gr 40's, 200gr 10mm, 230gr 45's.

For those who would point out that hitting your target is more important than caliber, I offer no argument. But when we speak of one round being more effective than another,I think it is assumed that we're talking about rounds which are placed on target.

YMMV
Regards,
Rich


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 10-21-98).]
 
I believe you are right. But for civilians, the very heavy factor of what happens after we shoot can also determine the best ammo. If I shoot a 180 gr .40 and it travels through the perp and into someone's house, I could be in for it. This is because I acted in my best interest (and my families), not in the best interest of the city,county,etc. Also, since I am a civilian, the need to shoot through objects is a moot point. It would be hard to argue to a jury my need to shoot someone through a solid object. In the case of civilians, shooting really is a last resort if you want to stay out of jail. that is why I carry loads that are light, fast, and hopefully hit like a sledgehammer to end the situation as quickly as possible with the fewest rounds (i.e. less risk of collateral damage). As for LEO's, you never know what to encounter, thereofre the bullet should be more versatile (165-180 gr .40).
 
Rich,
You definately are a man after my own heart-I couldnt agree with you more.
the doctor,
This notion that LEOS face different threats than the general population baffles me. If you were to say that the threats were basically the same, but a LEO encounters them more often than a civilian( after all, thats his job, right?) then I would agree with you. When you leave your house, do you know what you're going to encounter that evening? I dont. It would be hard to justify shooting through a solid object to a jury? Hmm. Not quite sure where that came from. If the perps got a gun and he's hiding behind light cover and he's trying to kill you, shooting through the barrier would be justifiable to me if there was a reasonable doubt that an innocent was behind the same barrier. Its a chance you'd have to take, but doing nothing could be worse. Do you live in a northern state? I do and we also have to consider penetrating heavy clothing during the colder months and continuing on into the vitals to stop the fight. In that kind of situation, you'd need a heavier bullet to get the job done. I do agree with you when you say as civilians shooting should be a last resort. It should also be a last resort for LE. Staying out of jail should definately be a priority, but I think being dead might br worse
smile.gif

Take care,
o1paw
 
I think the Holy Grail may have been found. The TRITON QUIK-SHOK load... IT penetrates barrier material deeply, yet when it hits a fluid (meaning tissue, which turns to fluid and acts as fluid against the bullet)expands while it penetrates the breaks into 3 pieces. This gives you deep, multiple wound channels of a large main wound channel. lets the targe bleed out real well, causes trauma to more organ tissue, all kinds of good stuff.
It is also a bit hotter than the 135+P .40 Cor-Bon load. If this is the best in 40 - it may well be worth looking into in 9 or 45.
I think After I blow through all my Cor-Bons, I will load up with all Tritons... i would love to see test results, street results on this load. The Strausburg Tests show the fastest incapacitating rounds are the Magsafes and Glazers... The Magsafes do penetrate deep enough for human targets... You dont need to go very deep to hit heart, brain or spinal tissues in the human body. Hunting applications are different.
I had a partner that carried a magazine of FMJs for use against things like Locks and stuff.
Battling guys behind vehicles as was mentioned here - reminds me of April 11th 1986, Miami. 5 FBI agents wounded, 2 killed. That was a wake up call. What was learned there? Among other things, bring a long-gun to a gun fight. The Agent that fired the first shots from over his hood should have ended it right there if he had aimed and hit the subject in the head... from a distance of 6 feet no less. I feel he failed his job at that moment. He was later called a hero - but I bet he wears that mighty heavily knowing he could have ended it before every one was wounded and 2 of his own killed.
Did I get bitter there? I am sorry. I spoke in haste.
 
..tip-toeing back into the conversation.....

Okay, I must admit that I am a fan of fast & Light when it comes to hurting the body. I do worry about penetration (both in an LEO role and civilian), so I carry a stagger, or a relatively heavy bullet.

I think that staggering has certain advantages. The concept of "if I need a heavier bullet, what do i do?", well, you might have to fire a few rounds to _find out_ you need more penetration. That is what the 2 body, 1 head drills are all about. If I have gotten to the bottom of a hi-cap mag, I would like to think that there is a pentration issue involved, not just that I can't hit a damn thing.

Now, as far as a difference between what a civilian faces and what an LEO faces, let me offer this, my theory, for what it is worth:

A civilian is most likely to be involved in defending him or her self from an attacker that picks him/her as a victim. When a predator is picking a victim, he anticipates being stronger/faster/smarter than the victim. Often, a mugging or potential assault (including sexual) takes place at the end of a couple of threatening looks, a weapon not necessarily involved. You pull a gun on a goon or two and the goons are done.
If the threat is initiated by knife or even a gun, they still are acting with a sense of dominance over a percieved weaker foe and are not going to be prepared to mount a defense. Robberies/muggings/assaults/etc are almost always totally offensive actions, with the perps having no concept of defense. This is why so many of these crimes are foiled instantly by the mere presentation of a firearm by a civilian.

An LEO is much more likely to encounter a more determined individual, for the simple fact that no perp is going to pick an LEO out as a victim. Unlike a civilian, LEOs are often called upon to be (no, this is not the way it "should" be put) aggressive in action. To not only protect themselves, but also other officers or civilians. In many places, civilians acting on behalf of anyone but themselves with lethal force are treading on very thin legal ice (which I think is crap..), yet LEOs are expected to do this as part of their job.

In short, some days I go out with nothing more than a .32 Tomcat and I feel 100% capable of defending myself, but I would never dream of taking that weapon out on duty with me.(without another one
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)
 
I have a hard time believing a test that shoots goats(or sheep, or dogs, or kangaroos, for that matter) and then tries to apply it to incapacitation in humans. Goats dont load up on speed before they head out to rob you, nor do they ever, to my knowledge, have intent to harm/kill humans. They're just stupid animals that fall down when they're shot.
o1paw
 
Rob,
Hey buddy! If you use the argument that cops confront more determined criminals(huh?) than civilians, and that most of the time by displaying a firearm, the bad guys take off, couldnt you also say realistically that the bad guys take off at the first sign of a patrol car or a uniform? I agree with you on the issue of perps targeting victims, but I just havent heard that many stories of cops being held up. Period. by anyone. Its not cause they've got better bullets, its cause they're known to be armed, are wearing body armor, and have a radio to call for a bunch of other guys that are know to be armed and wearing body armor. As far as Magsafes penetrating deep enough and not much penetration needed, that all kinda depends on the size of the body being shot, doesnt it? If your shooting at a body with 4" of fat and you hit bone after that and youve only got 6" of penetration in balistic geletan, well, in my opinion, you may have problems. I'll stick with my 230gr Hydra Shocks in 45acp which will penatrate light cover, if need-be, retain most of its weight, reliably expand in a human body, and destroy vital organs. For me, I think its the best round for all the different variables I may run into on the street.
Have a good one,
o1paw
 
Rob-
I'm not against staggered mags. While I don't personally bother with such, whatever floats *your* boat. Good analysis of the different threats face by LE and Civilian targets. It's seldom that a civilian would be justified in shooting thru windshield glass or a car door.

But, I'll still opt for penetration as it seems that, in most shootings, the legal danger is not with the rounds that hit your target so much as the ones that don't. If I have to face those types of risks, I'd prefer to declare bankruptcy knowing I'd accomplished my primary goal...stopping the bad guy.

o1paw: I could go on all day about the blatant design flaws in the mythical Strasbourg Tests. But I won't
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.
Rich
 
Ol Paw, Rob is speaking from experience. There are differences. One is that the LEO has to catch the guy, take physical control, and put him into custody. A civilian has to either escape - or make the bad guy run away. I dont like hearing civilian bad mouth LEOs - you have know Idea what it is like to go out EVERY NIGHT knowing your in for a FIGHT. Fights that go to the BONE. Here in Richmond - they dont go down when you hit them... they fight till they cant fight anymore. VERY VIOLENT! VERY UGLY.

MagSafes go deeper than 6 inched - your thinking of the GLAZER loads... they are shallow hitters. 4 inches of fat in the chest? That would be a pretty fat SOB... a brisk stride would get you out of his way then. And the goat test - like the gel test does not tell you the results on persons... but the do give you a compairison against other bullets. And these DO give you an idea when your dealing with bullets of known effectivness against such persons. By the way - of all the broohas I got into as a LEO - only half were drunk, and only 2 were on recreational pharmisuticals. The only thing the all had in common was being guilty of Felony Stupid... Dang I would love to get that put onto the law books... "Mam, you exited your vehicle to spray MACE on the operator of another vehicle, because he made you mad? Put your hands on your head please..."
 
Kodiac,
I dont really know all of you guys that well, just as you dont know me. But I find it disturbing that #1) you immediately assumed that while Rob has experience as a leo, I do not (4 brief, violent years) and that I was "badmouthing" leos. I did no such thing. I have also lived in "war zones" as a civilian for the better part of my adult life. Yes, the described perp would be a fat SOB, and a brisk stride would get you out of arms reach, but would it get you out of the reach of a hunk of lead traveling at1000fps? Or the shot pattern of a sawed off shotgun? You must be alot faster than me(I am gettin outta shape
smile.gif
What would the frangible do to bone after encountering all that fat? Or even muscle, which is much denser than fat? I just have a tough time trusting something that breaks apart by design to penetrate adequately under any circumstance. I still dont quite understand how the threat is different to LE than it is to a civilian, and thus the civilian doesnt need as penetrating a round. That just doesnt make sense to me. When responding to a shots fired call, what has happened? A civilian shot another civilian. By the time the LEOS get there, 9 times out of 10, the perp's gone. Now, if both the civilians were armed, why would the civilian need less penatrating rounds than the LEO tracking down the perp at a later date? Is it because he doesnt get shot at or get into fights every day? That doesnt make sense to me either. As a civilian arming myself to protect my life, I would think that I should want the best all around load in my chosen caliber for the ONE time I may need it, cause there might not be another chance. Does this make any sense?
o1paw
 
I owe you an apology Ol Paw... I wasn't hacking on you - hard to tell in posts...

I have used Mullins amunition on coyote - and seen it used on deer - and Mullins has a video tape showing it used on freakin huge HOG... It is a jacket filled with Tungsten Powder! Let me say that again - POWDER. tiny grains of metal... not balls, or "shot" or fletchets or any thing... just powder. And that stuff while expensive - even more than my beloved Magsafe... have physicaly PROVED that they are very LETHAL. And the animals mentioned are tough critters, all capable of suffering horrendous wouds and still running off. This powder bullet ANCHORED these beasts I shot with these bullets. Against humans - the result would probably look like the wound in the movie Predator when the guy with the minigun was taken out. I just dont see how penetration is that big of a deal in a human target... most vitals are found pretty shallow as I said before. even a fat person (lets go with VERY FAT Person - like the Mom in the Johny Depp movie Who's Eating Gilbert Grape) In a torso shot - upper center mass... from any angle... the AVERAGE bullet will be more than able to hit critical parts... and frangible rounds will positively detroy lots of vital tissues... Even a gut shot... catastrofic wounds will result - as fat tissue is not very dense, delaying the spread of particulant fragments... letting the stuff penetate nice and deep.
I think the only problem with penetration happens when the subject is wearing weavy clothes... like the Nations Bank robbers who were hit 4 times by Floyd Deans .38 LRN bullets and that didn't even get wounded.
 
Question - why are non-LEOs referred to as civilians by LEOs? I thought civilian was a term used by the military. I do not like being referred to by an LEO as a civilian. An LEO is NOT part of the military and I hope they still consider themselves as a civilian. IMHO the term does nothing more than foster an "us versus them" mentality.
 
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