M1911s... Maintenance nightmares?

turkeestalker said:
I will say this much, I am not at all happy with the trigger on the Colt I just bought my son for his birthday. It has easily 3/16ths of an inch of creep and pulling the trigger must be done with 'purpose' so to speak. Aside from the trigger it seems to be a good quality pistol, as it should be.
Offhand, I would say it's impossible to have 3/16" of an inch of creep in any 1911, simply due to the geometry of the trigger, sear, and hammer. That's almost a quarter of an inch. Are you really referring to creep, or do you mean pre-travel/take-up?
 
There is one thing that I've been running across, and that is that 1911s practically all need some level of gunsmithing to be reliable out of the box. How much truth is their to this?

None. Buy a quality gun and it should run right out of the box.
 
There is really only a small amount of creep, the bulk of the actual movement would be pre-travel/take-up.
I realize that in order for the trigger to reset, some is needed. But this just seems excessive. Combine that with the sloppy feel of the trigger itself, that "ton of play in all directions" that P71pilot mentioned, and it just feels horrible.
I did order a solid stainless John Masen trigger for it, (non-adjustable via bendable tabs) other than appearance I doubt it will change much but I guess I'll find out, then go forward from there.
 
Just get a quality, known gun from a reputable manuf. (Colt, Kimber, ect.) and don't sweat it. Just shoot the heck out of it :)
Stay away from the Zeke's Brand m1911.
 
In my experience, 1911's are not at all a nightmare. I currently own 6 and have had a few others that I've sold. All but 1 have been reliable out of the box. The 1 was a Ruger SR1911 CMD that came with a slightly too tight extractor and didn't reliably load the last round in 8 round mags (fed perfect in all my 7 rounders). It took all of 5 minutes to tweak the extractor and it has had... 1200 trouble free rounds since. Mostly I've used Wilson Combat and the 7 round Ruger mags.

To everyone who says their 1911 has never malfunctioned:

What 1911?
How many rounds? FMJ or JHP?
What magazines?
What parts have been changed (including mags) over the life of the pistol?
Be honest.

Just glancing at my round logs for a few.

Remington R1. 900 round with the two factory mags (and probably some Wilson 47ds). No stoppages.

Kimber Warrior. 2000 or so rounds (I forgot to track a range trip or two). Mostly Wilson Combat 47d and Chip McCormic mags, a few Kimber mags. No stoppages.

Springfield GI (no longer mine, but it has a good home now). I had probably 1000 or so in it (I didn't keep track when I first got it). Used Wilson, Springfield, Kimber, Ruger and Chip McCormic mags. No stoppages.

Kimber Pro Carry II. 900 something rounds before I sold it. Used Kimber, Springfield, Remington, Wilson, Chip McCormic (basically all of em) in it, no stoppages.

Got a few others with a few hundred rounds in em, mostly using my Wilson 47ds.

My Wilson mags are on their first springs and have quite a few rounds through all of them (I have 4) and they are reliable in everything I have got.

Heck, I think I have more stoppages in my Glocks than my 1911's. But that's largely because my old Glock 23 HATED Fiocchi Blue box 170 grainers.
 
I inherited a 1942 Remington Rand that was pieced together from various parts and had to smith it a bit to get it working (had some issues).

Since then I've purchased a combination of 10 new/used 1911s and haven't had a single issue with any of them.
 
Just to let folks know, The John Masen trigger cured the slop of the factory trigger, the bar was just a smidge wider but did not seem to be any longer. With the slop gone, the take up doesn't feel as 'horrible'.
Twenty dollars cured my disappointment and in my opinion improved the looks of the pistol because the stainless matches the frame and slide beautifully.
 
To everyone who says their 1911 has never malfunctioned:

What 1911?
How many rounds? FMJ or JHP?
What magazines?
What parts have been changed (including mags) over the life of the pistol?
Be honest.

I do not believe you can go 1000 rounds through a production line 1911 like a Colt, SA, or Kimber without replacing at least a magazine. Magazines are part of the firearm, if they malfunction the firearm has malfunctioned. 1911 mags seem especially prone to failures caused by weak mag spring and the springs in all of the 1911 mags I've tried seem to get to that point after about 500 rounds.

Anyone who claims they have never had a malfunction is either exaggerating, or they don't shoot very much.

I have 1911 mags that were used every weekend for years, and they still function like new. I've also had some that were defective when new, and needed immediate replacement.
I've been involved in beta testing of magazines, and some have worked better than others.

If I were to choose the most likely culprit of functional issues with 1911s, I'd go with the extractor. If a 1911 is malfing, it's usually extraction and ejection issues, not feed failures.

I have one 1911 that has never malfed, but I doubt it has more than 1000 rounds through it, so too small a sample.
Those with multiple thousands of rounds probably do average one malf per thousand of range-brass handloads. I generally shoot nothing else.
During that time, 2000 to present, I've replaced the barrel on one gun, and put a new sear and extractor in the other.

I have never claimed extraordinary reliability from the 1911, but do call BS when proponents of other guns do. I've never witnessed it. Maybe some guns only distinguish themselves under bad conditions, but under "range" conditions, with access to lube and cleaning supplies, there just aren't any guns magically more reliable than others.
 
Ive owned 3 1911's in my life, I use Wilson Etm mags exclusively.

1. Springfield Milspec Stainless/occasional stovepipe first 200rds. Then it seemed to cycle fine till the titanium firing pin failed at 850rd mark sent to SA. Replaced firing pin and test fired 50rds wrked fine. Traded for a Mak90 straight cut.

2. Kimber Custom II, two tone.
No problems.

3. RIA GI,
No problems.
 
Thanks guys. As some of you may know I am looking at a RIA tactical model, single stack .45. Anybody know if the Rock Island guns have some shady parts that I'll need to switch out or have the gun worked over?
 
I have a RIA Tactical in 10mm that is solid. There are some rough edges and machine marks but in my limited use (probably 350ish rounds) it has been dependable and accurate with a surprisingly nice trigger. I use it as a woods walking gun when im not feeling revolver..y
 
I have owned many many 1911's over the years and still do. The issues you brought up are NOT what I've experienced. All of them have functioned properly and have not needed any more maintenance than my Glocks, Sigs, Kahr's and S&W's.

These guns were all stock Colts, Les Baer and Rock Rivers. I have replaced some parts in my Colts (triggers, mainspring housings, grips) only because of preference.
 
All of them have functioned properly and have not needed any more maintenance than my Glocks, Sigs, Kahr's and S&W's.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... I hate to say this but there's a chance that you're practicing improper maintenance on your 1911's then.

1911s, like SIGs and any 3rd generation semi-automatic Smith and & Wesson have full length frame rails and require more lubrication right off the bat. So that's already one point where the 1911 and co need a little more maintenance.

Back to m original response to this thread though, I don't feel they're nightmarish in any way. Just that they need a little more attention. Even the top 1911 pistoleros will say so.

Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, and even then owner of Wilson Combat if I'm not mistaken.
 
And nobody linked to this: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/160140_High_round_count_pistols__100_000___observations.html

In general, 1911's require more maintenance. Compared to Glocks, they are maintenance intensive. It's why some military units don't prefer them even if they could.

When discussing one fleet of guns vs another, the 1911 has shortcomings. One is that when they were designed it was done literally by hand and intuition - not computer aides stress analysis. Please note that when they were fielded and used for quite a while, John Browning moved on to the HiPower to address the issues.

When Gaston Glock had the 17 designed he had a staff of engineers skilled in mainframe CAD analysis and engineering a high cycle count product that would last decades. Their main line of product? Cabinet hinges. They don't accept or make junk in Europe the way we do here. They demand professional grade for the most part, something only approached at the institutional/commercial level here.

If the 1911 was given the benefit of modern design and workup, a lot of it's intrinsic issues might not be there at all - but it would look slightly different. It wouldn't be the 1911 we know, any more than the Cobra Daytona Coupe looks like a GT40. They are a different generation apart, the first drawn on a restaurant nakpkin with hand formed aluminum body on a 1950s tubular space frame, the second computer aided with aerodynamic emphasis, dyno tested to destruction motor, and riveted aluminum panel chassis.

1911's are the epitome of gun making at the start of auto pistols - they are state of the art for 1911. Glocks, sorry, they are 1984, but it doesn't mean that something else couldn't come along even better. It's been over 30 years on the market and they are starting to get long in the tooth, too. They are, however, more maintenance free and easier to use on a fleet basis.

I wouldn't say the 1911 is a nightmare of maintenance issues. What has happened is more modern guns have come along which had issues discovered in the use of 1911's prevented. Newer gun designs sidestep what Browning didn't know about or accepted in that days state of the art. Now we demand more, and those issues aren't acceptable. We kept the 1911 for a long time, rebuilding the twice over the years, but it doesn't mean they didn't have problems. It was simply accepted then. Now, not so much.

If anything the quality of the gun maker and what ammo can have just as much affect with the anecdotal stories posted above. 1911's were never intended to fire HP ammo and the nose design of ball ammo dominated the feed ramp angles. It still does - but newer designs accommodating modern ammo as standard do better overall. For the most part the average shooter won't suffer from the 1911's less accepting design faults but across the board it's been put to pasture for most large units. Some may point to a few users who do but it's notable for the Marines that they don't issue it for combat - LTC and below get a M4 heading to the field. Pistols are largely ceremonial in the services, badges of rank. A Glock doesn't do that as well in our social appreciation.
 
Thanks guys. As some of you may know I am looking at a RIA tactical model, single stack .45. Anybody know if the Rock Island guns have some shady parts that I'll need to switch out or have the gun worked over?

I wouldn't make any but DIY mods to a RIA, and then, only when something is demonstrably not working like it's supposed to.
 
Tirod,

I believe some of the most reliable pistols in the world are GI issue 1911s. If the gun is made to spec with strong parts, it will require less maintenance than any other semi auto design.
 
Please note that when they were fielded and used for quite a while, John Browning moved on to the HiPower to address the issues.

Browning was constantly moving on, looking for different, and hopefully better things. Note that his designs went from dual links to a single link, and the last to a cam system for pivoting the barrel. (and it was his last, I think, only because he died. AND, he died quite a few YEARS before the HiPower design was finished. The finished HiPower pistol looks very little like his prototypes, and while I have no proof, I've always felt naming it the Browning HiPower was both a tribute and a marketing ploy, to capitalize on the fame of Browning's name, for a gun that was mostly designed and finished by others.

If the 1911 was given the benefit of modern design and workup, a lot of it's intrinsic issues might not be there at all - but it would look slightly different.

Oh, exactly...:D

This is a further testament to the true genius of JM Browning. He didn't have a design team of engineers able to spend thousands of man hours doing computer design before actually creating a product. He also didn't have over half a century of seeing what worked, what didn't, and how well in combat.

Over 20 different firearms designs that became tremendous commercial and military success, WITHOUT an engineering staff, without computer support, without the benefit of a modern education, modern metallurgy, without the benefit of decades of use history of firearms of similar designs ... impressive doesn't even begin to describe it.

Browning seldom did much "paper" design work, most of what he did is simple rough sketches. Browning often carved his designs as wood models, turned them into steel prototypes when he was comfortable with the concepts, then refined those, and then using what he had tested and actually worked, put the designs on paper in the usual way.

All the failings and shortcomings of the 1911 design we see today were state of the art in 1911. They aren't any more maint. intensive than any other gun of the era (or for many decades afterwards) and less needful of care than many guns of the era, or even later.

Don't,however, fall into the trap of thinking the 1911 needs no care. The legend of the 1911 always working is just that, legend, NOT fact. But where the legend came from was the fact that the 1911 most often worked better than its contemporaries when it didn't get the "proper" care.

Someone once described the US GI 1911A1 as "the best combination of size, weight, ergonomics, and power ever produced in one package". Certainly true a half century ago, and some of us still think its true today.
 
It is a machine. It requires lubrication to function, and also requires that all moving and mating surfaces be clean ENOUGH to do their job. It will always be my favorite semi automatic pistol.

My 1911 has only had malfunctions due to bad crappy reloaded ammo. Twice in its short life of 1500 or so rds. I have seen my dad's kimber malfunction a whole lot more, but only being due to being dry. My Springfield will run dry. It probably just isn't as tight as his kimber. There are alot of variances between yours and mine and this model and even the same model of the same maker.
 
tirod has been doing the good work on this issue.

P71pilot said:
I believe some of the most reliable pistols in the world are GI issue 1911s. If the gun is made to spec with strong parts, it will require less maintenance than any other semi auto design.

Then you either a) don't understand statistics and/or b) have a statistical outlier of a handgun from which you base your thoughts on the entire design.

Or, rather, 'belief' is exactly what is going on here, not actual, raw facts.

The cult of personality that the 1911 commands is absurd. If you want to know what tools work the best, find people that use those things for a living, and you'll start seeing an absolutely crap load of Glocks (especially Glock 19s), and an ever thinning crowd of 1911s, run by guys that understand that their lil baby needs to be rubbed with a diaper now and again.

Hell, even just a survey of this forum and it's topics is all that it takes. Just take a quick look at the first 100 threads here and find how many of them are questions about 1911s and how to address various problems with them. Then, do the same thing with other, more modern designs. It's a crude method, but an enlightening one.
 
Tirod --

Read the entire 17-page thread you linked to started by the owner/operator of a commercial firearms rental range. On page 17, he says:
As long as the Springfield, Sig's and Armscor/Citadel models keep working, we won't be adding any other 1911's. Though we do have issues with them and have to send some of them in for repair somewhat more often than others, the warranty repair is easy and we get our money's worth. I don'w want to add additional brands for the armorers to deal with, especially when those boutique brand 1911's may be more expensive.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/1..._pistols__100_000___observations.html&page=16 (italics in original)

And, if you read the thread, there's a several cracked slides in the Glocks they use. I'm not saying 1911s are more problem-free. That would be inaccurate. But it is also inaccurate to say that 1911s are substantially more problematic than other guns or need a lot more maintenance.
 
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