Luger vs. P-38 historical preference ???
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Check out the "Walther Forum" and you will find lots of historical and educated opinions from other experts who lived and breathe these guns.
I had inherited a P38 from my Dad who took it off a German officer in WW2.
I used it quite a bit, but since mine was made toward the end of the war, it had some common material deficiencies in the thin slide area. I later used it quite a lot at the range using a later model "fat slide". It was pretty hardy and was fun to shoot. Probably shot 500-1,000 rounds before giving it to my son.
I had inherited a P38 from my Dad who took it off a German officer in WW2.
I used it quite a bit, but since mine was made toward the end of the war, it had some common material deficiencies in the thin slide area. I later used it quite a lot at the range using a later model "fat slide". It was pretty hardy and was fun to shoot. Probably shot 500-1,000 rounds before giving it to my son.
Winchester_73
New member
Grant
Thank you. The extractor should be number right on top for a 1917 DWM. I assume your gun to be a military contract? A letter suffix on serial number (under barrel on frame) with Imperial proofs on right chamber?
I have seen lugers where the extractors were marked a certain way on the side of the extractor to be correct.
Here is a top view of my Mauser G date (1935) police variation. I figured I would post this to make sure you knew which piece the extractor was, for certain. I would expect a military 1917 DWM to have a serialed extractor.
Thank you. The extractor should be number right on top for a 1917 DWM. I assume your gun to be a military contract? A letter suffix on serial number (under barrel on frame) with Imperial proofs on right chamber?
I have seen lugers where the extractors were marked a certain way on the side of the extractor to be correct.
Here is a top view of my Mauser G date (1935) police variation. I figured I would post this to make sure you knew which piece the extractor was, for certain. I would expect a military 1917 DWM to have a serialed extractor.
Winchester 73..thank you
Yes it has a # 75 on it, so you don't recomend shooting it?
I would hate to have something break, and loose value on the pistol.
They just feel so right in your hand,it's so natural,like pointing your finger.
The P-38 does'nt have that natural pointability like the Luger.
Yes it has a # 75 on it, so you don't recomend shooting it?
I would hate to have something break, and loose value on the pistol.
They just feel so right in your hand,it's so natural,like pointing your finger.
The P-38 does'nt have that natural pointability like the Luger.
Winchester_73
New member
Webley, +1. Another important consideration is that IMO they were losing the war by 1942 and esp by 1943. The failure of Battle for Britain was a warning sign that the Wehrmacht was not as mighty as it once thought. Arms became progressively harder for the Nazi's to make.
Grant - well its like this. You can buy a glock 19 and shoot the snot out of it, and then you can buy a luger. You're buying collector pieces (you need to sell me that SS PP ASAP, btw) and your luger, is probably a collectors piece (I'm assuming all matching sans mag with over 80% original finish and no import marking?). My attitude about this subject is this - why take the chance? Of course, like James K said, they're not brittle, but there is that possibility. It would be one thing if it were possible AND the parts were not serial numbered. Then it would be like shooting a pre war S&W and somehow the hammer broke or what you have you (very unlikely). The hammer could be hard to find, but at least its not numbered to the gun. With the luger, most parts are numbered. So you have two issues, finding a replacement part, and then actually finding one with the correct number and or proofmark otherwise the luger gains the mismatch stigma. Very hard if not impossible to get a matching part with proper proof.
I say why take the chance, because I bought my lugers as collectibles and investments. Other people say "hey, you only live once, lugers are great, a piece of history, and I can't have guns I don't shoot" and that's fine, but I would rather take no chances. If your gun is refinished, or does not match, then that is a different story. Some of my lugers are fairly valuable IE my Dutch contract, so I think some of the people who insist on shooting don't really own such a luger anyways. It also depends on how wealthy someone is. I'm not wealthy enough to disregard the current value of my lugers, other people may not care as much. I bought them as investments, not truly as "guns" but I happen to find guns beat out most other types of investments.
JMHO and YMMV
Grant - well its like this. You can buy a glock 19 and shoot the snot out of it, and then you can buy a luger. You're buying collector pieces (you need to sell me that SS PP ASAP, btw) and your luger, is probably a collectors piece (I'm assuming all matching sans mag with over 80% original finish and no import marking?). My attitude about this subject is this - why take the chance? Of course, like James K said, they're not brittle, but there is that possibility. It would be one thing if it were possible AND the parts were not serial numbered. Then it would be like shooting a pre war S&W and somehow the hammer broke or what you have you (very unlikely). The hammer could be hard to find, but at least its not numbered to the gun. With the luger, most parts are numbered. So you have two issues, finding a replacement part, and then actually finding one with the correct number and or proofmark otherwise the luger gains the mismatch stigma. Very hard if not impossible to get a matching part with proper proof.
I say why take the chance, because I bought my lugers as collectibles and investments. Other people say "hey, you only live once, lugers are great, a piece of history, and I can't have guns I don't shoot" and that's fine, but I would rather take no chances. If your gun is refinished, or does not match, then that is a different story. Some of my lugers are fairly valuable IE my Dutch contract, so I think some of the people who insist on shooting don't really own such a luger anyways. It also depends on how wealthy someone is. I'm not wealthy enough to disregard the current value of my lugers, other people may not care as much. I bought them as investments, not truly as "guns" but I happen to find guns beat out most other types of investments.
JMHO and YMMV
Just for the record, the part I said that broke was the EJECTOR, which is set into the left side of the receiver, not the EXTRACTOR, which is set into the top of the breechblock. Extractors may break, but I have never seen one that did. Ejectors are more susceptible to breakage.
The marking on the extractor is "GELADEN" or "loaded" which is visible when there is a round in the chamber, so it is what we now call a loaded chamber indicator as well as the extractor. On contract guns, the German word "GELADEN" was usually replaced with the same term in the language of the using country.
Jim
The marking on the extractor is "GELADEN" or "loaded" which is visible when there is a round in the chamber, so it is what we now call a loaded chamber indicator as well as the extractor. On contract guns, the German word "GELADEN" was usually replaced with the same term in the language of the using country.
Jim
If it has all matching numbers on the parts (you need to look it up but the only ones that are not serialed are pins, spring, firing pin)
If you break a numbered part, the value of the gun goes from around $1500 or better (depends on a lot of factors) to a $700 shooter.
There is no reason not to shoot a non matched up Luger in decent condition though you do not want to put anything hot through it.
Winchester 73...once again, I appreciate your advice.
No, there are no import markings on the P-08, P-38, or the PP, they are all vet bring backs,and all matching #'s.
So I will relagate them to just looking at pistols, and shoot the 1962 model P-38.
I'm still trying to get the holster for the PP from the gentleman I bought it from,hopeing it has the other magazine with it,which would be grand,to have the complete set.
(and the SS Walther PP my wife might sell after I'm gone! lol)
No, there are no import markings on the P-08, P-38, or the PP, they are all vet bring backs,and all matching #'s.
So I will relagate them to just looking at pistols, and shoot the 1962 model P-38.
I'm still trying to get the holster for the PP from the gentleman I bought it from,hopeing it has the other magazine with it,which would be grand,to have the complete set.
(and the SS Walther PP my wife might sell after I'm gone! lol)
I have a shooter P-08 that came back through Russia in the mid 90's when they were surplusing a lot of their old guns. It has been reblued (re-arsenalled in Russia), so not a collector, but it is one heck of a shooter. 1941 Mauser P-08 Luger with black plastic grips.
My Dad was in Germany at the end of the war, and a few years after the war had ended. Lugers were VERY desirable. So desirable he could not get one or wasn't willing to pay the price by the time he wanted want to bring back to my grand dad who was a cop. Instead he got a Walther PP in 7.65MM, that had been nickel plated, and sold as a souvenir.
My Dad was in Germany at the end of the war, and a few years after the war had ended. Lugers were VERY desirable. So desirable he could not get one or wasn't willing to pay the price by the time he wanted want to bring back to my grand dad who was a cop. Instead he got a Walther PP in 7.65MM, that had been nickel plated, and sold as a souvenir.
This thread is fun....
So I will throw in and echo a sentiment that a couple people already had - I bet that if the soldier was presented all the common pistols used by the Wehrmacht, the BHP with its' 13 rounds would be "prefered". But I doubt, as stated, that hardly any of them got to consider choices and then choose what they prefered.
So I will throw in and echo a sentiment that a couple people already had - I bet that if the soldier was presented all the common pistols used by the Wehrmacht, the BHP with its' 13 rounds would be "prefered". But I doubt, as stated, that hardly any of them got to consider choices and then choose what they prefered.
I once knew a vet who had been a company commander. He had a BHP he took from a German officer. His story was interesting and (knowing the gentleman) true. He was advancing in a Belgian forest when he was fired on by the German who was behind a tree. The American took cover behind another tree and fired back with his own pistol. They did the "old west" thing until the German had fired eight rounds. The American, thinking the German's gun was empty, stepped out and found out about the BHP's magazine capacity. He wasn't hurt and his BAR man took care of the German, firing through the tree, the German, and the Browning.
Now that would seem to be a really silly war story except the guy had the pistol. A .30 bullet had gone through it just above the grip, locking it up with one round still in the magazine. It had had an unfired round in the chamber and he fired it by driving in the firing pin with a punch (the firing mechanism had been destroyed, of course). But the magazine wouldn't come out, so he just left it.
Jim
Now that would seem to be a really silly war story except the guy had the pistol. A .30 bullet had gone through it just above the grip, locking it up with one round still in the magazine. It had had an unfired round in the chamber and he fired it by driving in the firing pin with a punch (the firing mechanism had been destroyed, of course). But the magazine wouldn't come out, so he just left it.
Jim
Contrary to Winchester73's idea of the Luger's complexity, I still maintain that the Luger is a simpler-to-understand design compared to the P38.
His comparison of field stripping was unequal because his description of stripping the Luger was more extensive than that of the P38. Taking apart the Luger's toggle mechanism - removing the axle pin, would be akin to pulling the firing pin cover off of the P38, and dismantling the slide.
It is absolutely NOT necessary to use a tool to remove the firing pin from a P08, it just turn easily with finger pressure. With any practise, taking a Luger apart is not difficult, and can be done to a greater extent than the P08 design.
It was not recommended to strip a P38 further than the slide off, and the barrel out. There are more springs and smaller parts in a P38, especially difficult to keep track of if extensive dismantling is done.
ALL the Luger's action parts are visible, and easily understood due to its LINEARITY, and the relationship between the trigger and the sear is much more direct in the Luger, easily seen and understood, than the hidden rotational parts within the P38 frame.
The Luger's action was based on a machine gun, and its lock time is faster than a slide operated gun, with the toggle parts being lighter and having less distance to move. The design of a Luger is inherently more accurate due to the short and straight movement of the barrel, more precisely carried on the frame rails than the P38's wobbly arrangement, where the barrel is only held at the rear, and more loosely.
His comparison of field stripping was unequal because his description of stripping the Luger was more extensive than that of the P38. Taking apart the Luger's toggle mechanism - removing the axle pin, would be akin to pulling the firing pin cover off of the P38, and dismantling the slide.
It is absolutely NOT necessary to use a tool to remove the firing pin from a P08, it just turn easily with finger pressure. With any practise, taking a Luger apart is not difficult, and can be done to a greater extent than the P08 design.
It was not recommended to strip a P38 further than the slide off, and the barrel out. There are more springs and smaller parts in a P38, especially difficult to keep track of if extensive dismantling is done.
ALL the Luger's action parts are visible, and easily understood due to its LINEARITY, and the relationship between the trigger and the sear is much more direct in the Luger, easily seen and understood, than the hidden rotational parts within the P38 frame.
The Luger's action was based on a machine gun, and its lock time is faster than a slide operated gun, with the toggle parts being lighter and having less distance to move. The design of a Luger is inherently more accurate due to the short and straight movement of the barrel, more precisely carried on the frame rails than the P38's wobbly arrangement, where the barrel is only held at the rear, and more loosely.
spacecoast
New member
I have managed to acquire a number of Lugers (both shooters and collectors) and one collector P38 (a May '43 Spreewerk in really nice shape). The Lugers are unique and really fun to shoot, very accurate and garner attention at the range. The P38, while not having nearly the history or number of variations as the P08, is also historically significant being the first DA/SA production pistol (at least I believe that is correct).
While I have yet to shoot a P38 (or P1), I daresay that in a SD situation I would probably go with the newer, more modern design. Lugers can be finicky to get to run reliably, although I had good luck with my .30 cal a few weeks ago.
I will also observe that Lugers are easy to break down and put back together once you know what you are doing, much easier IMO than a complete takedown of a 1911 or a Ruger MKII, for instance.
While I have yet to shoot a P38 (or P1), I daresay that in a SD situation I would probably go with the newer, more modern design. Lugers can be finicky to get to run reliably, although I had good luck with my .30 cal a few weeks ago.
I will also observe that Lugers are easy to break down and put back together once you know what you are doing, much easier IMO than a complete takedown of a 1911 or a Ruger MKII, for instance.
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A good friend was "conscripted" in 1945 along with the other boys from his high school in 1945. Wounded soldiers deemed unfit for front line service were their leaders. Among the weapons they were issued were Lugers (null acht), as they received only obsolete equipment and that's how the Lugers were viewed. What he "wanted" never seems to have entered into his thinking. He ended up with a PPSh.
I don't think it was the "first" either but the Walther PP proceeded the P-38 by several years and was DA/SA.
I much prefer shooting my P-08 Luger. It is very accurate, and very reliable with any ammo I shoot in it, including hollow points, and my lead reloads. I have no ideas what German troops thought of it, but believe it was more of an officers symbol/self defense pistol than anything, but I could be wrong.
Unfortunately, it is about five years too late for me to ask my grandfather about this. 
He did have a Luger taken from a German SS officer, but it was stolen out of his bags by other GI's and never made it home. Although Grandpa grew up speaking German (on the family farm in Washington State), he didn't ask the officer about the Luger.
Grandpa and his unit of forward artillery observers where unfortunate enough to chance upon Dachau concentration camp soon after the Germans left it.
After that they did not take SS as prisoners, so the officer wasn't able to comment about the Luger.
He did have a Luger taken from a German SS officer, but it was stolen out of his bags by other GI's and never made it home. Although Grandpa grew up speaking German (on the family farm in Washington State), he didn't ask the officer about the Luger.
Grandpa and his unit of forward artillery observers where unfortunate enough to chance upon Dachau concentration camp soon after the Germans left it.
After that they did not take SS as prisoners, so the officer wasn't able to comment about the Luger.