Luger vs. P-38 historical preference ???

Mike- The NAZIS were commies. NAZI means National Socialist German Worker's Party and that's as commie as it gets.
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And the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) is most definitely democratic.
 
My grandfather had an artillery carbine just like that one.
He traded it for a Webley pellet gun for my father when he was a wee lad.
Still have the Webley....dammit!
 
My only thought on the firing pin question is that anyone who thinks the P.08 firing pin is hard to remove should definitely not try to remove the P.38 firing pin.

Jim
 
My grandfather had an artillery carbine just like that one.
He traded it for a Webley pellet gun for my father when he was a wee lad.
Still have the Webley....dammit!
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Don't be so glum. I'm sure that Webley pellet rifle will still fetch every penny it sold for when it was new!
 
25 years ago when I worked for Mercedes Benz I worked with 5 older gentlemen who were in the Wehrmacht, they all said they liked the Luger over the other handguns available.
One told me if a enemy soldier was caught during battle with a Luger they were shot on the spot.Reason being that they killed an officer to get it.( Of course they all said they were'nt Nazi's either)

I have a 1917 P-08, 1941 Walther P-38, and a 1962 P-38. They all are accurate, and a joy to shoot, and I find the 1962 P-38 the easiest to field strip of the three.
 
One told me if a enemy soldier was caught during battle with a Luger they were shot on the spot.Reason being that they killed an officer to get it.( Of course they all said they were'nt Nazi's either)
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That just seems silly to me (not necessarily saying it's inaccurate). Let's be honest - neither the Russians nor the Germans were terribly conscientious when it came to the treatment of captured foes and neither side felt the need to devise any sort of rationalization for killing POW's when the mood struck them.
 
I don't think preference comes into play here, the troops used what they were ISSUED. The P-38 was a more modern design to take advantage of modern manufacturing techniques-stamping, e.g. Same with the MP-38. Not familiar with German practices regarding officers purchasing their own equipment, always thought that was more of a British practice. Pretty sure the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS got the pick of equipment, the rear echelon, police and security units got what was left over.
 
I don't think preference comes into play here, the troops used what they were ISSUED. The P-38 was a more modern design to take advantage of modern manufacturing techniques-stamping, e.g. Same with the MP-38. Not familiar with German practices regarding officers purchasing their own equipment, always thought that was more of a British practice. Pretty sure the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS got the pick of equipment, the rear echelon, police and security units got what was left over.
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It's probably some of both. Remember that toward the end of the war, the German armed services (let's not forget the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine and all the other agencies as well) were grabbing essentially every warm body they could find - even as officers. For example, consider the various foreign national SS divisions. It would have been, to say the least, problematic to demand that each of them somehow source, on their own, suitable sidearms. So as a matter of expedience, it seems necessary that the German services would have the capability of issuing sidearms to those officers who, for whatever reason, were unable or unwilling to purchase them on their own.
 
I said:

Also, I never tried to remove a luger firing pin without a tool (oddly enough, the luger tools were made in part for this purpose) but it would NOT be an easy task.
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(without a tool).

Jimmy K said:

My only thought on the firing pin question is that anyone who thinks the P.08 firing pin is hard to remove should definitely not try to remove the P.38 firing pin.
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I didn't mean to confuse anyone (by my first statement above). Just so we are all on the same page, I was saying that the Luger firing pin removal requires a tool, and without some type of tool, it would not be easily accomplished. On the other hand, I never tried to remove a luger firing pin without a tool, whether screwdriver, luger tool, etc. IMO, a luger firing pin breakage occured more frequently than a broken P38 firing pin so its not that important how easy or hard a P38 firing pin change would be. I can see it being more complicated, but if it happened much less frequently, its basically irrelevant.

My post was referencing which design is simpler, which I would have to say the P38 is simpler in design but a luger, while being a little more complex, is still more primitive. I hope that makes sense to someone.

Micromontenegro, is this post funny too? Or just the comments in reference to my posts?
 
I would imagine that in the latter years of WWII, the typical German soldier, had he a particular need for a sidearm, would simply have chosen what he could lay hands on and obtain ammunition for. I doubt very much he had the luxury of hours of contemplation in the matter.

Remember, also, these are SIDEARMS - they are not primary weapons for combat troops. I'm sure we as enthusiasts put a lot more thought into this than the typical Wehrmacht feldwebel who no doubt had more practical concerns.
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I forgot to mention this and its very true. The pistol is used as a secondary arm. The Germans probably didn't put a ton of thought into which sidearms each had, but on the other hand, if something is available and better, go for it. Any of the guns mentioned in this thread were serviceable and they all served in WWII. The typical German soldier was probably happy to have a working pistol, regardless, as others have said.
 
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The only problem I know of on the P.08 firing pin is with the old ones without the gas escape slots. If there was a pierced primer or gas escape around the primer and gas came back through the firing pin hole, it drove the old style firing pin back hard enough to break out the rear of the breech block, ruining it. I have seen several that were apparently damaged that way.

Another weak point with hot ammo is the ejector, which is its own spring. If the breechblock comes back too fast and the rear of the case hits the ejector before it can flex, it will break.

Other than those problems, the old Luger is a pretty tough pistol, though not as reliable as the P.38. That is partly because of the way Luger converted the Borchardt. The Borchardt recoil spring exerts its force almost straight down, giving maximum force to closing the breech. But Luger had to get the spring into the rear of the grip, so it has more of a forward component. That problem was overcome by slanting the grip backward*, which in turn led to feeding problems due to the angle of the magazine. The P.38 design was a lot better in that respect.

*The great feel of the Luger was not the reason for the slanted grip, it was an accidental byproduct of the need to make the gun function.

Jim
 
That is partly because of the way Luger converted the Borchardt. The Borchardt recoil spring exerts its force almost straight down, giving maximum force to closing the breech.
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Ah yes, the Borchardt, aka C93. I hope someone will sell me one reasonable someday, a cased one, like ol Aberman used to have...
 
The only problem I know of on the P.08 firing pin is with the old ones without the gas escape slots. If there was a pierced primer or gas escape around the primer and gas came back through the firing pin hole, it drove the old style firing pin back hard enough to break out the rear of the breech block, ruining it. I have seen several that were apparently damaged that way.
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I didn't know about that, and that is interesting. I was referring to how it seems like many lugers today have mismatched or unnumbered firing pins, which reflects a replacement most often (some lugers had unmarked firing pins, but that is rarely the case for a military luger). I think firing pin breaks in a luger were far more common than a P38.

Another weak point with hot ammo is the ejector, which is its own spring. If the breechblock comes back too fast and the rear of the case hits the ejector before it can flex, it will break.
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I read this, and re-read this, and could not understand what you meant at first. I think you are saying "breechblock comes back" as in "returns forward" not in the sense "moving backwards". I see what you mean now. If the breechblock came forward, and the extractor did not move up to clasp the rim of the case, then the extractor could snap?

For the record, broken extractor issues are another reason, IMO, the Luger was not near as great as a P38. Remember, if the extractor broke in the field, and you had no means of replacement, the gun became useless.
 
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"I can see an officer carrying a luger for sentimental reasons, or because it shot good for him due to the grip angle, but otherwise, I think you carry something more modern as a Nazi officer."

When he was arrested, Herman Goering was carrying a Smith & Wesson Military & Police in .38 Special...
 
Nope, I meant that as the breechblock with the case held by the extractor, comes back, the case hits the ejector hard. The ejector has no spring, it is its own spring. If hit hard enough, it can snap off rather than bending to take the blow.

I doubt many ejectors broke in the field because the ammunition was carefully made and controlled. But Lugers are being fired by today's owners with hot loads (factory or handloads) the guns were never designed for. And some folks believe that the Luger is super strong and perfect and will handle anything they can stuff in it.

Jim
 
Nope, I meant that as the breechblock with the case held by the extractor, comes back, the case hits the ejector hard. The ejector has no spring, it is its own spring. If hit hard enough, it can snap off rather than bending to take the blow.
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Oh I see. I didn't realize how hard of a hit that would be on the extractor. I know my lugers with SN extractors will not be shot by myself for this reason, and others.

Micro,

Your "contributions" to this forum are always appreciated.
 
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